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Tags New Zealand incidents , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 6th March 2019, 12:49 PM   #561
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I'll take that as a no then.
Except that I already have and you ignored it. As I said, pretending to not understand the basics of the discussion is a tired old trick, known now as bobbing, which won't endear you to anyone.
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Old 6th March 2019, 12:51 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I don't know. I imagine their are plenty 15 year olds who could outbox many 26 year olds. I wouldn't put one in the ring with the world champion though
But you would be perfectly happy with the current heavy weight champion of the world facing the womens

Let me give you an example

A couple of years ago the US Womens National football/soccer team had a warm up match before their international against Russia

The US womens football team is ranked number one in the world in womens football

The warm up match was against the FC Dallas Under 15 boys team

The women lost 5-2

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...U-15-boys.html
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Old 6th March 2019, 12:52 PM   #563
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All top male Olympic athletes should now report in dresses. Gold medals for all.........Notice to all Feminists: Your Olympic dreams are over, back to the kitchen because the men have taken back every inch of ground you've gained. All is right with the World? Or are we rethinking some of the choices we've made as a society?

Chris B.
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Old 6th March 2019, 12:53 PM   #564
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
But then Federer v Williams would be fair
Yes, that's arguably a fair competition.

But it's not an interesting one. It's not a competition that can sustain an audience. Hell, Federer and Williams themselves probably wouldn't be interested in it.

I'm happy to keep fairness out of the discussion. But audience interest matters. Sports need an audience. And in the long run, audiences aren't going to be interested in seeing transwomen trouncing women. Fair or not, it's just not interesting.
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Old 6th March 2019, 12:54 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's not irrelevant in the least. You just can't see the point because you are tied into an old paradigm and happy to throw transwomen under the bus thanks to bad maths.
None of that is true, nor does it have anything to do with your irrelevant point; so it's doubly irrelevant on top of being a lie. Nicely done.

It's irrelevant because it's already built into the discussion. When we're talking about women being excluded or trans people being included, obviously we're not talking about those who don't qualify for the competition. That you don't see that is sad and depressing.
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Old 6th March 2019, 01:12 PM   #566
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's not irrelevant in the least. You just can't see the point because you are tied into an old paradigm and happy to throw transwomen under the bus thanks to bad maths.
No more so than you are throwing cis-women under the bus.

Your ideal world, no matter how much you demand we just don't notice, would have little to no cis-women being able to functionally compete.

Again your argument would leave us with a functioning "Biological Men Who Identify as Men" League and a league that would be dominated by biological men who identify as women, with cis-women a statistical anomaly at best.

You're worldview excludes a lot more people then the one you are railing against.
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Old 6th March 2019, 01:35 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No more so than you are throwing cis-women under the bus.

Your ideal world, no matter how much you demand we just don't notice, would have little to no cis-women being able to functionally compete.

Again your argument would leave us with a functioning "Biological Men Who Identify as Men" League and a league that would be dominated by biological men who identify as women, with cis-women a statistical anomaly at best.

You're worldview excludes a lot more people then the one you are railing against.
If I picked a team for something and I got to choose from an equally talented pool of trans women or cis women , ten times out of ten I am picking the trans women. I could not name a single person who understands sport who would pick differently. And this would only become a stronger trend as more trans athletes began to competing, increasing not inky personal talent but talent pool.

Great for 1% of the population pretty **** for 49%.

I don't really see how this syncs with the concept of sport or equality.
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Old 6th March 2019, 01:43 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
But you would be perfectly happy with the current heavy weight champion of the world facing the womens
Would I? Where did I say that?
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Old 6th March 2019, 01:45 PM   #569
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Would I? Where did I say that?
*HEAD DESK* I give up. He's gone full Bob.
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Old 6th March 2019, 01:45 PM   #570
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
When we're talking about women being excluded or trans people being included, obviously we're not talking about those who don't qualify for the competition.
then it's not 50 v 0.3 then.

It's more like 0.01 vs 0.01
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Old 6th March 2019, 01:48 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
then it's not 50 v 0.3 then.

It's more like 0.01 vs 0.01
*Very slowly*

Okay... let me know where I lose you here because I'm starting to agree with Belz that it's seeming more and more like you're doing this on purpose.

If the top .01% of female athletes, the ones competing at high level professional, Olympic, stuff like that levels are overwhelmingly dominated by trans-female athletes, it excludes cis-women athletes from top level competition.
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Old 6th March 2019, 01:48 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No more so than you are throwing cis-women under the bus.

Your ideal world, no matter how much you demand we just don't notice, would have little to no cis-women being able to functionally compete.
This would not be my ideal world. You seem to be assuming things I haven't said.

Quote:
Again your argument would leave us with a functioning "Biological Men Who Identify as Men" League and a league that would be dominated by biological men who identify as women, with cis-women a statistical anomaly at best.
Perhaps you could tell me what you think my argument is? Because I think at least one of us is confused about that

Quote:
You're worldview excludes a lot more people then the one you are railing against.
No, it literally doesn't as I have explained previously. But then again I haven't been arguing for a particular solution.
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Old 6th March 2019, 01:49 PM   #573
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
But then again I haven't been arguing for a particular solution.
You mean "You have no opinion about that?" Yeah heard that before.
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:05 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
But then again I haven't been arguing for a particular solution.
You certainly seem to be arguing against excluding trans women from competing against women. So it looks like you're at least arguing for a class of solutions.
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:14 PM   #575
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I really don't get how it is such a big issue

Just have 3 categories instead of just men and women

Men
Women
Trans Women
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:27 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I really don't get how it is such a big issue

Just have 3 categories instead of just men and women

Men
Women
Trans Women
It's a big issue to the LGBTQI community that's trying to improve society's tolerance and respect for transsexuals.

And it's a big issue for all of us who want an inclusive society that treats minorities as first-class citizens, just as deserving of our support and accommodation as the majority.
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:29 PM   #577
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Very slowly*

Okay... let me know where I lose you here because I'm starting to agree with Belz that it's seeming more and more like you're doing this on purpose.

If the top .01% of female athletes, the ones competing at high level professional, Olympic, stuff like that levels are overwhelmingly dominated by trans-female athletes, it excludes cis-women athletes from top level competition.
And I will say it even slower.... if the top 0.1% of the population are transwomen displacing ciswomen then they are excluding the 0.1% of ciswomen who would have been competing at the top. Not ALL women.
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:31 PM   #578
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I really don't get how it is such a big issue

Just have 3 categories instead of just men and women

Men
Women
Trans Women
Why not catch every fish by having another category?

Trans Men
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:32 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Why not catch every fish by having another category?

Trans Men
If they want one, go for it
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:35 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's a big issue to the LGBTQI community that's trying to improve society's tolerance and respect for transsexuals.

And it's a big issue for all of us who want an inclusive society that treats minorities as first-class citizens, just as deserving of our support and accommodation as the majority.

A bunch of transwomen destroying women in sport is hardly going to promote respect and tolerance imho
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:36 PM   #581
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And I will say it even slower.... if the top 0.1% of the population are transwomen displacing ciswomen then they are excluding the 0.1% of ciswomen who would have been competing at the top. Not ALL women.
That's nonsense. That's playing with the categories differently depending on what you want to argue.

You're arguing that to be "fair" we have to let trans-women compete in the female category. You don't seem to be arguing that they would probably significantly overwhelm that category.

But then where the ~50% of cis-women are supposed to compete gets brushed aside with... nothing. Just nothing.

You've divided it into 4 categories for your purposes, but back into two when it doesn't suit your needs.
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:40 PM   #582
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
If they want one, go for it
That's the point: Transpeople don't want special categories for themselves. They want society to slot them into the existing two categories.

The reason we don't worry about transmen in competitive sport is because it won't actually upend men's competition. It'll just mean a few more underqualified competitors on the lowest rungs of the men's leagues.
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:42 PM   #583
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To use an imperfect metaphor for a lot of trans people being slotted into a third category would be akin to solving segregation by making a third section at the lunch counter.

(Most) Trans-women don't want to be a special new category of women, they want to be sign as women, period.
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:45 PM   #584
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
A bunch of transwomen destroying women in sport is hardly going to promote respect and tolerance imho
It's definitely a conundrum. I don't have the answers.
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Old 6th March 2019, 02:55 PM   #585
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
To use an imperfect metaphor for a lot of trans people being slotted into a third category would be akin to solving segregation by making a third section at the lunch counter.

(Most) Trans-women don't want to be a special new category of women, they want to be sign as women, period.
Yeah, but we are just talking elite sporting competitions here, if we have to dig this far down to find things that are important and make the difference, life can't be that bad for them.

As for what they want, sorry, but a lot of people don't and won't ever think you are suddenly a woman and not a trans woman just because they have taken some hormones and mutilated their bodies
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Old 6th March 2019, 03:04 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You mean "You have no opinion about that?" Yeah heard that before.
No, I have an opinion. I don't have an answer.

I have expressed my opinion multiple times only to be met with weird responses like 'so you would be happy with the men's heavyweight champion to be battering women?' when I have categorically never said anything of the ilk.

Literally all I have said is that we should try to find a way to incorporate transwomen into women's sports and that one way to do that might be to try to rejig categories a bit but that it won't be easy to find a solution.
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Old 6th March 2019, 03:12 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
No, I have an opinion. I don't have an answer.

I have expressed my opinion multiple times only to be met with weird responses like 'so you would be happy with the men's heavyweight champion to be battering women?' when I have categorically never said anything of the ilk.

Literally all I have said is that we should try to find a way to incorporate transwomen into women's sports and that one way to do that might be to try to rejig categories a bit but that it won't be easy to find a solution.
That is not what I said, but thanks for pointing out that is what would happen
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Old 6th March 2019, 03:13 PM   #588
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
then it's not 50 v 0.3 then.

It's more like 0.01 vs 0.01
Speaking of bad math, thanks for giving a lesson in that.

Seriously, if you're not going to discuss this honestly, why not leave the topic to the rest of us?
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Old 6th March 2019, 03:17 PM   #589
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You certainly seem to be arguing against excluding trans women from competing against women. So it looks like you're at least arguing for a class of solutions.
I have been arguing for excluding transwomen from competing with women on the grounds that transwomen aren't women (recall the title of the thread) or for excluding transwomen from competing in sports period.

The main sticking point for me has been that a lot of the arguments used don't seem to hold water and in fact when you drill down they just boil down to 'transwomen aren't women, that's why'.
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Old 6th March 2019, 03:25 PM   #590
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The main sticking point for me has been that a lot of the arguments used don't seem to hold water and in fact when you drill down they just boil down to 'transwomen aren't women, that's why'.
That's actually the right reason, though, when you drill and/or boil it down.

Biologically, transwomen are on average more like other men than they are like other women. Not only that, but the biological difference in question is exactly the reason we segregate sport by gender in the first place.

That's the argument in a nutshell. What part of it doesn't hold water for you?
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Old 6th March 2019, 03:31 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I have been arguing for excluding transwomen from competing with women on the grounds that transwomen aren't women (recall the title of the thread) or for excluding transwomen from competing in sports period.

The main sticking point for me has been that a lot of the arguments used don't seem to hold water and in fact when you drill down they just boil down to 'transwomen aren't women, that's why'.
Do you mean you have been arguing AGAINST excluding transwomen from competing with women on the grounds that transwomen aren't women? Because otherwise I can't reconcile your first and second paragraph.

Assuming that was a typo, and that you did mean against, well, first off it's true that trans women are not women (biologically speaking), but I don't think anyone's argument ends there. There's always a "therefore" added on after that, explicitly or implicitly. I don't think you've presented any real counter-argument to my own presented reason.
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Old 6th March 2019, 03:43 PM   #592
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's nonsense. That's playing with the categories differently depending on what you want to argue.
No, it really isn't.

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You're arguing that to be "fair" we have to let trans-women compete in the female category. You don't seem to be arguing that they would probably significantly overwhelm that category.
No, I am arguing that we shouldn't be excluding transwomen on the grounds that they aren't really women. If there are more objective criteria to be used that ends up with them being excluded then I am open to look at that but they may well/probably will also catch a number of biological women.

I don't know if they would significantly overwhelm the category or not because they are a small number, I have no idea how much of an advantage they have over women and to what extent other factors can mitigate that, and I have no idea how many transwomen actively want to participate in high level women's sports.

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But then where the ~50% of cis-women are supposed to compete gets brushed aside with... nothing. Just nothing.
Because they AREN'T getting brushed aside. The vast vast majority of those cis-women have exactly the same chance of competing in top level elite sports as they always had. ZERO.

And those who aren't elite will still be able to compete at their non-elite levels because 0.3% can't displace 50% entirely.

Quote:
You've divided it into 4 categories for your purposes, but back into two when it doesn't suit your needs.
No I have simply looked at the arguments put forward and countered it.

If the argument is that it is significantly more prejudicial to include transwomen as exclude them that would seem laughable.

If the argument is that transwomen have a biological advantage then I would probably agree, but most elite sportspeople were born with a biological advantage, so what's the reasoning for drawing the line where it is other than 'transwomen are not real women'?

The truth of the matter is that there really isn't anything sacred about the existing rules. They were drawn up based on an easy metric to suit a societal need. Those needs may be changing. So its worth looking again at the rules to see if we can come up with something better.
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Old 6th March 2019, 03:46 PM   #593
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The truth of the matter is that there really isn't anything sacred about the existing rules. They were drawn up based on an easy metric to suit a societal need. Those needs may be changing.
For the vast majority of society, those needs are not changing. It's only changed for a very small but rather vocal minority.

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Old 6th March 2019, 03:48 PM   #594
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If the argument is that transwomen have a biological advantage then I would probably agree, but most elite sportspeople were born with a biological advantage, so what's the reasoning for drawing the line where it is other than 'transwomen are not real women'?
Elite sportswomen get their own league because if they competed against elite sportsmen they'd be shut out across the board. Because of the biological difference between the two genders.

If elite transwomen compete with elite bio-women, then the elite bio-women will be shut out by the elite transwomen. Because of the biological difference between the two genders, which doesn't go away when a biological male self-identifies as a notional female.
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:22 PM   #595
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I have been arguing for excluding transwomen from competing with women on the grounds that transwomen aren't women (recall the title of the thread) or for excluding transwomen from competing in sports period.

The main sticking point for me has been that a lot of the arguments used don't seem to hold water and in fact when you drill down they just boil down to 'transwomen aren't women, that's why'.
...isn't that the only reason that makes any sense?
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:44 PM   #596
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
If the argument is that transwomen have a biological advantage then I would probably agree, but most elite sportspeople were born with a biological advantage, so what's the reasoning for drawing the line where it is other than 'transwomen are not real women'?
Cis-women have as much right to representation as trans-women do. A league that is almost totally devoid of them outside of a slim majority at best, a few statistical outsiders at worst can't be just hunky dory with you if you're entire argument is based on inclusion of another subcategory. That's why it's "women" are a category when it is convenient for you but it's separate "trans women and cis women" when that's convenient for you, because that's the only way for you to pretend this circle is square.

Your entire argument is we have to include the trans-women to be fair, but when we point out that they would outperform the cis-women to the point that they would largely be excluded your excuse it "Well that doesn't matter since they are all women" as if that isn't the exact opposite of what the entire point of the inclusion is.

WHICH IS IT? All women or some women? Pick one! If one subcategory of "All women" represents all women we don't need the worry about inclusion, if not we can't worry about half of the time.

But even this is all secondary. The primary problem is you're living in a fantasy world were trans-women dominated sports are going to have a viable audience.

You can't see beyond your "Well I don't have a problem with it..." blinders as if the fact that you aren't the only person sports have to accommodate or cater to just can't get through your skull.
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:49 PM   #597
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And it's a big issue for all of us who want an inclusive society that treats minorities as first-class citizens, just as deserving of our support and accommodation as the majority.
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Old 6th March 2019, 04:55 PM   #598
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The US womens football team is ranked number one in the world in womens football

The warm up match was against the FC Dallas Under 15 boys team
I'm not sure you're a Kiwi at all, now.

Surely, the better example is Australia's Women's team losing 7-0 to a Australian >15 boys' club team?

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I really don't get how it is such a big issue
Me neither, but the chance someone might get upset and feel their rights have been hurt has destroyed the ability to use common sense.

I await dwarfs/little people/whatever the PC term for them is, to start a movement to allow them to compete on an equal footing with able-bodied athletes by allowing them a 70/80/90% advantage over people x% taller than them.

Usain Bolt will be running 100m, while the albino transgender cross-eyed dwarf on the inside lane only has to run 40m.

All done; thread can be closed now.
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Old 6th March 2019, 05:23 PM   #599
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[quote=Ziggurat;12624039]Do you mean you have been arguing AGAINST excluding transwomen from competing with women on the grounds that transwomen aren't women? Because otherwise I can't reconcile your first and second paragraph. [/quot]

Yes that was a typo

Quote:
Assuming that was a typo, and that you did mean against, well, first off it's true that trans women are not women (biologically speaking), but I don't think anyone's argument ends there. There's always a "therefore" added on after that, explicitly or implicitly. I don't think you've presented any real counter-argument to my own presented reason.
If all that matters is the biological differences then I am not wholly opposed to defining what those differences are objectively and dropping the term 'women'.

I'm not entirely sure what your specific presented reason is but the argument that THOSE women can't compete because they are big and strong and will win, but these women here can compete it and it's great that they are big and strong and can win isn't convincing me.
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Old 6th March 2019, 05:40 PM   #600
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
For the vast majority of society, those needs are not changing.
I don't really think that's how societies work. or it's not how they SHOULD work anyway

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It's only changed for a very small but rather vocal minority.
Who are still part of society and last I checked every bit as deserving of rights as elite's women athletes for example

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Chesterton's fence. Look it up before you knock it down.
Well that's the whole point. Asking why these things are the way they are seems to lead to inconsistencies which are answered by admonitions that you are being clueless or deliberately obtuse rather than straight answers.

It seems self evident to some that there is great innate value in excluding some women from sport because they might be a bit too good at it.

Looking at the stakeholders in all of this:

- You have the 99.9% of women who are not elite athletes. I don't see how they lose anything other than the pretence that they could have been

- You have the 0.01% who are elite athletes worried they will be displaced. Which seems slightly hypocritical since they don't seem all that worried about the people below them that they 'displaced' and my sense is that is probably significantly based on biological advantages also. If there is some hard data here I might change my mind but I really haven't seen anything that tells me that a transwoman is necessarily light years ahead of an elite woman athlete.

- You have the paying public. Who apparently enjoy to watch lower level sport provided the participants have vaginas. Even though they can't see them apparently it matters. Is this kind of aesthetic preference how we want to run our sports because I am sure there are plenty people who would rather see an all white 100m race as well?
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