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Old 10th May 2019, 03:30 PM   #81
3point14
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, I wouldn't. Why do you ask that question? Why does everybody become so bloody defensive as soon as this question is asked


Perhaps it's this (bolding Mine):

Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm aware that they are "consenting to be dominated and humiliated," but I'm also aware that that's a contradiction in terms. So is "a healthy dom/sub relationship." And so is "consenting" and "complete control".
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Old 11th May 2019, 03:06 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
People consent to be dominated all the time. Employees. Soldiers. Students. Patients. Spouses.

I didn't expect that from you, but that is actually a very apt description of the employer-employee relationship: Since they need the money, they are forced to subject to being dominated by the guy with the money. But, of course, this implies a relationship between the two parties where the employee is already disadvantaged, as do most of your other examples. The circumstances impose upon the employee the need to consent, which stresses that this is a weird kind of consensuality.
By the way, does this have any connection with the cases of non-consensual sex that so often occur under these circumstances? You bet!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th May 2019, 03:40 AM   #83
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Checkmite already answered this, but ...

Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
ok simple change the hypothetical...
would you go online to an internet forum and demand to know why people are gay or trans?

when the only answer they give is "because i am" would you still demand to know the answer?

No, I wouldn't - mainly because the question has already been answered, at least as far as straight/gay is concerned, but if I was actually wondering about this, I see no reason why I shouldn't ask the question. And I don't think that most gays would have any problem with the question.
By the way, your "only answer" is very hypothetical. Some might say, 'I am, I always was, I'm fine with it, and I don't really care why.' Others would be able to come up with a biological explanation for their preferences: hormones, embryonic fluids etc. The latter has actually liberated homosexuals - in some parts of the world, mine, for instance. They no longer have to defend themselves against accusations that something is wrong with their minds or their morals. They don't have to subject themselves to all kinds of sick gay conversion therapies.

Quote:
would you then conflate their consensual behaviour to abusive non consensual acts like you've done in this thread?

if you saw someone doing as much would you consider it rude and obnoxious?

I didn't "conflate" anything.
If I saw someone doing what?

Quote:
just a friendly neighbourhood attempt to give you an chance of introspection as to what you are doing

There's nothing wrong with what I'm doing. I'm not in control of what you're reading into it, but I suppose a bit of introspection might help.


Quote:
read those 2 sentences out loud and take a step back and think for a moment

You should follow your own advice. Then you might even understand what that second sentence means.

Quote:
people arent all wired the same as you are be it gay, trans, masochist, submissive dom what ever...

No, they aren't. I, for instance, would never think that a sentence like yours is somehow profound or that it answers anything: Like Graham Chapman/Brian put it:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Quote:
i have a very hard time as to why people enjoy eating mushrooms but i dont care if they do or not. i just dont eat them if someone tries to feed them to me

So you have a hard time understanding why people like mushrooms. I don't. I also don't care that you don't understand it, and I don't care that you don't care. Eat them, don't eat them.
I find it very strange that you seem to set yourself up as an example. And I find it even more strange that when somebody asks why somebody does something, the answer is supposed to be: Because we are all different!
I think I've already mentioned this in another thread, but some skeptics are so ******* stupid. Look at Michael Shermer, for instance. When he came across the question, Why do some people believe weird things?, he wrote a whole book about it, when all he had to do was to say, "people arent all wired the same as you are." We are all different.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th May 2019, 03:58 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The more I see dann's argument, the more convinced I become that it's not:

"What is the root cause of this preference?"

But rather:

"How is this preference even possible?!"

You see it in his take on dom/sub relationships. He doesn't think humans should be wanting that, and seems to think they shouldn't be able to want it. The explanation he's demanding is how come humans are able to want stuff he thinks they shouldn't be able to want.

Your attempt at paraphrasing is nothing but strawman so it's not a good idea to use quotation marks. And you're as bad as always at interpreting what I'm writing. It bothered you so much in the thread about rapists that you ended up praising your own "technique" of ruining it.
I think that this would be called the T-word (and no, it's not T for technique) if it was allowed to say so.
You could do us all a favor by presenting the quotation that makes you think that your interpretation is more than paranoia.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:03 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
There's nothing wrong with what I'm doing. I'm not in control of what you're reading into it, but I suppose a bit of introspection might help.
You literally said there's no such thing as a healthy sub/dom relationship.

Someone needs to be introspective, I'll agree with that.
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:14 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I don't think that's the same thing.

Preference is biological; we've actually found evidence for that. Paraphilias aren't about preference in partners. Paraphilias are about things you do with a partner you've already chosen; the preference part (gay, straight, either, etc) is already out of the way at that point.

I'm waiting for a convincing argument to be made that why someone likes to dress up in leather and be whipped (or do the whipping), say, is as objectively biological a matter as why someone is attracted to males or females, or even specifically attracted to men or women who fit a specific "type".

I think the biggest roadblock to this conversation is that perhaps nobody here in this forum (or this thread at least) happens to enjoy any of those fetishes, so everyone who tries to answer dann's question is lmited to sharing second-hand information at best, which is incomplete. That's the other thing about paraphilias that makes them a distinct animal from preference: everybody has a preference, even if that preference is "none". Not everyone has a paraphilia; there may even be substantial numbers of people who don't.

Yes, the two things are immediately confused, sexual preference and paraphilias, but so far nobody has come up with (or, AFAIK, tried to find) genetic or bio-chemical/hormonal explanations for the majority of the paraphilias (Wikipedia). What would be the evolutionary advantage of bicycle-seat sniffing, for instance? What was it directed at before the invention of bicycles?

In another thread ten years ago, it was very apparent that the roadblock isn't what you're thinking.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:15 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You literally said there's no such thing as a healthy sub/dom relationship.

Someone needs to be introspective, I'll agree with that.

Are you going to explain what makes it healthy? Apparently some people die from sub/dom relationships, so what's healthy about it? That some people don't die?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:25 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Are you going to explain what makes it healthy?
No, because that's not the way it works. It's incumbent on you to demonstrate why your claim is valid. Surely you knew that???

Quote:
Apparently some people die from sub/dom relationships, so what's healthy about it? That some people don't die?!
People die from regular relationships. Some people don't. What's your point?
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Old 11th May 2019, 05:15 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No, because that's not the way it works. It's incumbent on you to demonstrate why your claim is valid. Surely you knew that???

OK, so you can't say that they are not unhealthy. It's probably a question of attitude. I think that all kinds of subjugation are unhealthy. For both parties. You don't.
subjugate (Merriam-Webster)
Oppression (Wikipedia)
(And, yes, I do know that BDSM is mostly consensual, but then we're back at the contradiction in terms again.)
By the way, if I tell you that smoking or soft drinks are unhealthy, that doesn't imply that I want to make them illegal. For some reason, a lot of people in this thread seem to be unable to make that distinction.

Quote:
People die from regular relationships. Some people don't. What's your point?

Yes, people die from all kinds of things. But some people in SM relationships die from the SM. One example was mentioned very early on in the thread. Do I have to argue why injecting silicone into your balls isn't healthy? Do I have to argue how strangling games aren't healthy? Or, if we move on to other paraphilias, algolagnia, anthropophagolagnia, anthropophagy, apotemnophilia, asphyxiophilia, autassassinophilia, autoerotic asphyxiation, auto-haemofetishism, autovampirism ....
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th May 2019, 05:25 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
OK, so you can't say that they are not unhealthy.....
No. That's not how it works. Debate honestly or do not debate at all.

Do not continue as if your point is demonstrated, it has not.

It is incumbent upon you, if you wish to lean on the statement 'lifestyle relationships are unhealthy' in any way, then you demonstrate it.

Until such point, any further arguments you make are pointless.


I'll continue to debate once you've brought evidence for the point you wish to use. Until then, you have a nice day,
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Old 11th May 2019, 05:33 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
... if you wish to lean on the statement 'lifestyle relationships are unhealthy' in any way, then you demonstrate it.

I have no idea what you're talking about. What are "lifestyle relationships"?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th May 2019, 05:38 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I have no idea what you're talking about. What are "lifestyle relationships"?
Apologies. A term for BDSM / Sub-dom / puppy or other non-conventional stuff. I'm not even sure if it's a standard term, I shouldn't have used it.
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:02 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Your reporting of it suggest to me that he viewed these things as exclusive. It's either parents siblings, caregivers etc or the kinky stuff. Is that a poor reading on my part?
As I recall, (and I haven’t done any reading on the subject for years....) Money was pointing out that the usual path towards the formation of the “lovemap” was based on the normal early-childhood contacts. Before age 3.
The cultural meme that both men and women tend to “marry their parents”... To fall for folks who in some way resemble the parent... Occurs often enough.

But no, I don’t think it’s an either/or situation. Most of the things classified as paraphilia also occur to a much-less-intense degree normally.... They just are not fetishized to the degree we’d call it a paraphilia.
Gal’s legs look nice in those heels... Doesn’t rise to a foot-fetish. Enjoying a slap on the butt or a bit of nibbling doesn’t arise to “masochism”.... Nor does doing those things rise to “sadism”. They are pretty much along the spectrum of “normal” behavior.

They only start to rise to the level of paraphilia when there’s much more involvement, or even compulsion involved.
A lot of these kinks have been around for a very long time.
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:04 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
As I recall, (and I haven’t done any reading on the subject for years....) Money was pointing out that the usual path towards the formation of the “lovemap” was based on the normal early-childhood contacts. Before age 3.
The cultural meme that both men and women tend to “marry their parents”... To fall for folks who in some way resemble the parent... Occurs often enough.

But no, I don’t think it’s an either/or situation. Most of the things classified as paraphilia also occur to a much-less-intense degree normally.... They just are not fetishized to the degree we’d call it a paraphilia.
Gal’s legs look nice in those heels... Doesn’t rise to a foot-fetish. Enjoying a slap on the butt or a bit of nibbling doesn’t arise to “masochism”.... Nor does doing those things rise to “sadism”. They are pretty much along the spectrum of “normal” behavior.

They only start to rise to the level of paraphilia when there’s much more involvement, or even compulsion involved.
A lot of these kinks have been around for a very long time.

My thanks.
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:56 AM   #95
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"I simply don't understand all these perverts and their desire to have something beyond vanilla, boring, missionary sex on their birthdays with the lights out. Why are these disguising freaks not explaining their unhealthy sinful lives to me better?"
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:03 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Apologies. A term for BDSM / Sub-dom / puppy or other non-conventional stuff. I'm not even sure if it's a standard term, I shouldn't have used it.

OK. It's possible that it is a standard term that I just happen to be unaware of.
More than 40 years ago, I read the book by Maria Marcus mentioned above, A Taste for Pain. Since then, I've read articles about this theme and now and then watched talkshows about it, and they have confirmed the impression that I got from her book.

1) Unlike Maria Marcus, who was very frank about the whole thing, people from this scene seem to be in denial about most aspects of it.
2) When Bikewer writes, "They only start to rise to the level of paraphilia when there’s much more involvement, or even compulsion involved," it seems to be spot on: It doesn't seem to be something that just suddenly occurs to people, like: 'Wouldn't it be nice if you tied me up and spanked me after supper?' It has usually been a profound desire played out in fantasy for years before it comes to that point.
3) An awful lot of people aren't able to distinguish between their fantasies and reality. And even more don't even want to make that distinction and interpret obvious non-consent as consent. They do so outside of BDSM, of course, but BDSM makes it so much easier for them.

Some fairly recent articles - some of them reflecting on the Shades of Grey series.

Why I left the BDSM community (The Daily Dot, Dec. 11, 2015)
The Line between BDSM and Emotional Abuse (The Atlantic, Nov. 29, 2016)
Abusive BDSM Relationships Do Exist, Despite What the Community Says (The Vice, Feb. 26, 2015)
Hooked Up and Tied Down: The Neurological Consequences of Sadomasochism (The Public Discourse, Feb. 17, 2015)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:04 AM   #97
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Does anyone know why they wear masks? Seems like it would interfere with the wearer's enjoyment of the experience. Do they wear them publicly for anonymity, or for their partner's benefit, of what?
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:05 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I simply don't understand all these perverts and their desire to have something beyond vanilla, boring, missionary sex on their birthdays with the lights out. Why are these disguising freaks not explaining their unhealthy sinful lives to me better?"

Which, of course, nobody has said, but feel free to pretend that they have. Why pretend that so-called "vanilla" sex is boring and only something that people only have "on their birthdays with the lights out." Why pretend that ordinary sex nowadays is similar to worst-case-scenarios in the Victorian age?
It corresponds extremely well to the attempts to idealize BDSM by putting down 'vanilla' as boring.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 11th May 2019, 07:15 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
OK. It's possible that it is a standard term that I just happen to be unaware of.
Perhaps. It's pretty moot as long as we both know what we're talking about.

As to the rest of your post, I didn't read it. It didn't seem to contain a demonstration of your claim.

Stop begging the question.
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:18 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Does anyone know why they wear masks? Seems like it would interfere with the wearer's enjoyment of the experience. Do they wear them publicly for anonymity, or for their partner's benefit, of what?

Bondage would also interfere with the enjoyment of ordinary sex, but it stresses the subjugation. I think that arthwollipot in post 25 came up with a fairly good description of what might be at play.
Masks might be a question of anonymity in a semi-public context, but I think that some people wear them at home as well. Powerplay? Maybe, 'I establish my superiority by making it impossible for you to read my emotions.' Or 'I degrade you by putting a mask on you, taking away your individuality.'
I'm just guessing. I don't remember reading any explanations.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th May 2019, 08:15 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Each of the parties in the relationship gets something different out of it. For the dom, the pleasure is in having complete control over every aspect of the other person's life. It's a literal power trip, and really not that hard to understand.

Well, I don't think that that (the highlighted part) is the case for most of them. It seems to be mainly in the bedroom and not 24-7, and maybe not even all the time. But do you actually find that easy to understand?

Quote:
For the sub, however, it's a little more complicated. For the sub, it's about giving up control to someone else. It's an interesting phenomenon that people who wield a lot of power in their regular life, like CEOs and politicians, are frequently submissive in the bedroom. That stereotype? Yeah, it's more or less true. For a sub, the pleasure of giving control over to someone else can be so intense as to be sexual.

I don't know if there are any reliable statistics about this, but the (few) women who have wanted me to tie them up or use humiliating language in the bedroom usually required to be very much in control the rest of the time. (And I was into neither one nor the other.)
The point probably is that sex, in particular when you first meet someone, is a fairly vulnerable situation, one that you are not 100% in control of - unless you're a rapist. It depends on the willingness of the other person, and that again depends on attraction, which is why we tend to make ourselves attractive to whomever we desire, which, of course, sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. And rejection is often seen as humiliating, as shameful. (And may even be intended to be so.)

The dom:
At this point, I'm assuming (and I wouldn't know how to confirm this - experimentally or otherwise) that the sexual fantasies of somebody who fancies (!) him or herself lacking in attractiveness (but may just be a lack of confidence) may turn to fantasies of domination rather than persuasion, seduction, etc. 'In my imagination, I spare myself the humiliation of defeat (i.e. rejection) by eliminating the possibility all together: I liberate myself from the condition of consent of the object of my desire.' In real life, somebody who is not an actual sadist will now find the fantasy a turn on, but has to go for the contradiction in terms in actuality: the consensual imaginary non-consensuality.

The sub:
In the case of a person who needs to be in control all the time, this need becomes an obstacle in the case of sex where you have to 'surrender' to your own sexual desire, which makes you vulnerable, too, and is also often seen as shameful. The fantasy way to do this is to imagine somebody else taking away your control, forcing you to surrender, suspending your ability to be in control of your own decisions. In real life, of course, you will still have to find somebody who is willing to pretend to force you to do whatever it is you desire to be 'pretend-forced' to do. The other side of the contradiction in terms.

Quote:
It's important to note that these folks are consenting to be dominated and humiliated - it's what they want. They're not being forced into anything.

Well, they are not being forced by somebody else, but you could say that the compulsion that's been established by means of their own fantasy life is more than just an option. It is not an ordinary choice.

Quote:
In a healthy dom/sub relationship, the sub can end it at any time.

Until they can't ...

Quote:
The Hafertepens also had internet celebrity, so there was an element of exhibitionism there as well. They were doing it for an audience, and therefore probably also for money.

However, stories like this one existed long before the internet, and they surface with some regularity when somebody claims to have accidentally killed somebody by 'going too far.'
https://ekstrabladet.dk/112/article4467109.ece
https://www.bt.dk/krimi/kvalte-karin...ik-saa-hurtigt
http://www.lokalavisen.dk/112/2016-0...el-982620.html
https://www.bt.dk/krimi/kvinde-kvalt...-til-forvaring



ETA: I think that Maria Marcus, the Danish author of A Taste for Pain, got rid of her obsession - not because of her distaste for the BDSM scene - but through her analytical approach to her own sexuality and her coming out about it. She stopped being ashamed and embarrassed about her masochism as well as about sex in general and thus had no need for the 'oblique' or 'convoluted' (I can't think of a better word) approach to sex.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 11th May 2019, 08:26 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Does anyone know why they wear masks? Seems like it would interfere with the wearer's enjoyment of the experience. Do they wear them publicly for anonymity, or for their partner's benefit, of what?
The article says that not all wear masks, and they show pictures of guys without masks.

What I find intriguing is the common design of these dog masks which most often look like they are made of leather patch panels. There is almost no attempt at realism and instead it's typically this same unusual riveted patch panel thing.

Check this one out. This is a common design and yet it's only vaguely like a dog.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg dog_mask_1024x1024.jpg (32.3 KB, 2 views)
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Old 11th May 2019, 08:43 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
As can football fans (all varieties), music fans, movie fans, opera fans, wine buffs and loads of other people.
Skeptics...
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Old 11th May 2019, 08:51 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Skeptics...
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Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
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Old 11th May 2019, 09:30 AM   #105
dann
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Check this one out. This is a common design and yet it's only vaguely like a dog.

That is disappointing! Dog-God looks much better in Preacher, but we can't all be omnipotent ...
This guy is not as good, and he's a professional and it cost him "more than 4,000 pound":

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th May 2019, 09:32 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, the two things are immediately confused, sexual preference and paraphilias, but so far nobody has come up with (or, AFAIK, tried to find) genetic or bio-chemical/hormonal explanations for the majority of the paraphilias (Wikipedia).
Isn't that what I just said?
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Old 11th May 2019, 10:11 AM   #107
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I agree with you! That's why I say, "Yes, ..." Don't be so surprised.
It was the "roadblock" I disagreed with.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th May 2019, 02:48 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I simply don't understand all these perverts and their desire to have something beyond vanilla, boring, missionary sex on their birthdays with the lights out. Why are these disguising freaks not explaining their unhealthy sinful lives to me better?"
I don't know if that's a typo or not but I guess it still works. BTW, check out the "Most (dis-whatever) vegetable" threads.
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Old 12th May 2019, 05:50 AM   #109
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There have been a couple of biographies written by women who worked as professional “doms” in commercial “dungeons”. One woman wrote her book to finance her degree... In commercial writing...
Anyway, it seems to be the case that the large majority of customers to these establishments are men in positions of power and control who enjoy being submissive under “controlled conditions”.
Of course... These establishments are also very expensive which might bias the idea...
Perhaps Joe working-class factory guy harbors such desires as well, but simply can’t afford the deluxe treatment.
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Old 12th May 2019, 06:36 AM   #110
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It's a shame the world of BDSM is so shadowy and secretive, discouraging its practitioners from writing accounts and essays and blogs and stories and poems and novels and fan fiction and webcomics all describing in painstaking detail their subjective experiences and feelings and posting them for free on the Internet by the tens of thousands. Unfortunately, this leaves us nothing to go by except pop psychology books and wild guessing.*

*Sarcasm. Also, "painstaking," heh heh.
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Old 12th May 2019, 06:58 AM   #111
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Online writing is not exactly statistics ...


Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Perhaps Joe working-class factory guy harbors such desires as well, but simply can’t afford the deluxe treatment.

It's probably not everybody who's into being spanked with a magazine with themselves on the cover. Maybe it's more humiliating to be spanked with the Daily Mirror ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th May 2019, 10:30 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Online writing is not exactly statistics ...

Good thing you weren't asking for statistics, then. You were asking for an understanding of the subjective appeal, a question that started with "Why...?"

This one, in fact:


Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm with Thermal on this one, but I know that some people get extremely upset if you even ask the question, why the hell would anybody want to do a thing like that? What's in it for them?[/url]
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Old 12th May 2019, 12:33 PM   #113
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Yes, that was post 20. Your post 110 followed Bikewer's post 109, which said that books by doms claim that "the large majority of customers to these establishments are men in positions of power and control who enjoy being submissive under “controlled conditions”."
Your post contained no reference to my post 20, so I assumed that you were commenting on Bikewer's post, and I wanted to stress the difference between more or less anecdotal evidence and statistics.

But to your post, then, this time without the assumption: "accounts and essays and blogs and stories and poems and novels and fan fiction and webcomics all describing in painstaking detail their subjective experiences and feelings," may be very interesting, but I don't think that they answer my question from post 20, or Thermal's or Checkmite's.
This is why I find Maria Marcus's book so much more informative. With herself as the object of analysis, she actually tried to answer the question: What is masochism? Why do SM relationships, appeal to her sexually, when she is averse to them intellectually, as a feminist?
Her starting point may be her "subjective experiences and feelings", and along the way she also analyzes SM fiction, but she moves beyond that. And in her own life it appeared to enable her to leave the SM scene & desires behind.

I know that I offend many people here simply by saying this, so I have to stress again that I'm not only unable to change anybody's behaviour or desires, it's also not my intention to do so.

But some of us have (had?) a hard time grasping why anybody would want to humiliate, tie up, spank, etc. a loved one. This immediately triggers the response that we don't understand or don't want to understand: 'different people, different strokes,' which is not at all true. I have no problem understanding most of the things that people are into, and when I don't, I usually ask. Most people don't get offended. It isn't usually a problem even when I make it clear that I asking about something that I myself don't like. Sailing, for instance. I used to work at a school where at least 50% of my colleagues spent their leisure time on boats, and I find sailing extremely boring. (The answer, by the way, was: 'It may sound strange, but the wonderful thing about sailing is when you get back on shore.')

Anyway, I think I've found the tentative answer to my own question: Post 101. It doesn't specifically answer the question about Pup Play related to the OP, but I guess that it is just a variation of the sub-dom relationship: dog-master.
I also haven't quite found a satisfactory answer to the question I asked in the other thread, What makes some people want to have sex with unwilling 'partners'?, i.e. when people want to dominate, humiliate or render helpless outside of the fantasy-playing scenario, 'in real life', but my guess is that it may be a combination of the fantasy described in post 101 and some variation of NPD that makes consent irrelevant to the perpetrator.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 12th May 2019, 12:59 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Checkmite already answered this, but ...




No, I wouldn't - mainly because the question has already been answered, at least as far as straight/gay is concerned, but if I was actually wondering about this, I see no reason why I shouldn't ask the question. And I don't think that most gays would have any problem with the question.
By the way, your "only answer" is very hypothetical. Some might say, 'I am, I always was, I'm fine with it, and I don't really care why.' Others would be able to come up with a biological explanation for their preferences: hormones, embryonic fluids etc. The latter has actually liberated homosexuals - in some parts of the world, mine, for instance. They no longer have to defend themselves against accusations that something is wrong with their minds or their morals. They don't have to subject themselves to all kinds of sick gay conversion therapies.




I didn't "conflate" anything.
If I saw someone doing what?
your tone is this thread is very similar to someone questioning someone about them being gay and conflating their behaviour to non consensual acts..

your first post in this thread included a link to a why are rapist, rapist? thread..




Quote:
There's nothing wrong with what I'm doing. I'm not in control of what you're reading into it, but I suppose a bit of introspection might help.






You should follow your own advice. Then you might even understand what that second sentence means.




No, they aren't. I, for instance, would never think that a sentence like yours is somehow profound or that it answers anything: Like Graham Chapman/Brian put it:

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So you have a hard time understanding why people like mushrooms. I don't. I also don't care that you don't understand it, and I don't care that you don't care. Eat them, don't eat them.
I find it very strange that you seem to set yourself up as an example. And I find it even more strange that when somebody asks why somebody does something, the answer is supposed to be: Because we are all different!
i dont spend any of my time wondering why people like mushrooms its not my frigging business what they like... i just dont eat them if they try to feed them to me or take offence if they are offered. what they eat in their own time away from me i dont give a **** and i certainly dont sit their wondering about their mushroom habits whilst posting links to threads about rape....

im kinky and bisexual

if you were to preface any questions about my bisexuality with links to paedophilia you would be getting pretty much the same response from me (and ive seen more than enough of that)

if you want a nice honest discussion about my kinky side take a step back and think about how you might actually be coming across...

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Old 12th May 2019, 01:16 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The dom:
At this point, I'm assuming (and I wouldn't know how to confirm this - experimentally or otherwise) that the sexual fantasies of somebody who fancies (!) him or herself lacking in attractiveness (but may just be a lack of confidence) may turn to fantasies of domination rather than persuasion, seduction, etc. 'In my imagination, I spare myself the humiliation of defeat (i.e. rejection) by eliminating the possibility all together: I liberate myself from the condition of consent of the object of my desire.' In real life, somebody who is not an actual sadist will now find the fantasy a turn on, but has to go for the contradiction in terms in actuality: the consensual imaginary non-consensuality.
this is in the world of "not even wrong"
in the bdsm world a submission is given

it isnt ever given to a wet blanket with a lack of confidence. a Dom doesnt need to be overtly attractive but they certainly do need to have confidence. seduction and the ability to say "here, now"

if thats done well you get submission

also sadism/masochism is a completely different kettle of fish to domination/submission (there is overlap but they are 2 different things)

Quote:
The sub:
In the case of a person who needs to be in control all the time, this need becomes an obstacle in the case of sex where you have to 'surrender' to your own sexual desire, which makes you vulnerable, too, and is also often seen as shameful. The fantasy way to do this is to imagine somebody else taking away your control, forcing you to surrender, suspending your ability to be in control of your own decisions. In real life, of course, you will still have to find somebody who is willing to pretend to force you to do whatever it is you desire to be 'pretend-forced' to do. The other side of the contradiction in terms.
still not even wrong

maybe you touch the edges for some but for most its much more deeper and different than that
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Old 12th May 2019, 05:24 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by dann View Post

....

So what is biological about dressing up as dogs? What is biological about dressing up in leather? (I do it all the time when I'm riding my motorcycle and I don't find it difficult to explain why.)
I would have a very hard time coming up with biological explanations for most of these: List of paraphilias (Wikipedia).

Mental disorder would be my guess. Doesn't mean it's bad or should be stopped, but if we can have a myriad of disorders for children who misbehave then surely these people have one or more.

I think maybe the dressing up as dogs for sex isn't so odd, it's the openness of some of these people and the desire to have clubs and "packs" and be in the news. Attention seeking? That is weird, and maybe being weird is part of why they do it.

I'm happy to admit that I don't understand it enough to really know. If dressing as a dog in public will give you the ability to lick your own crotch - that is something I would understand.
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Old 12th May 2019, 05:36 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
It's a shame the world of BDSM is so shadowy and secretive, discouraging its practitioners from writing accounts and essays and blogs and stories and poems and novels and fan fiction and webcomics all describing in painstaking detail their subjective experiences and feelings and posting them for free on the Internet by the tens of thousands. Unfortunately, this leaves us nothing to go by except pop psychology books and wild guessing.*

*Sarcasm. Also, "painstaking," heh heh.
ISF, where uninformed speculation by the ignorant is "skeptical", but actual real life experience is "anecdote" and must be dismissed.
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Old 12th May 2019, 05:49 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
ISF, where uninformed speculation by the ignorant is "skeptical", but actual real life experience is "anecdote" and must be dismissed.
"What do they get out of it?"

"Well, here's what I get out it."

"Doesn't count!"
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:18 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think you and arthwollipot should take another look at the contradiction in term: consent to be dominated. I have read more than enough to make the judgment. These relationships can be so absurd that the subs actually force the role of dom upon their non-consenting partners. One of the guys that the paraphilia was named after did just that:
If consent isn't given, it isn't a healthy relationship. It's rape. That shouldn't be too hard to understand.

I think I've identified what the problem is. You don't believe that there is any such thing as a healthy dom/sub relationship because you've seen lots of evidence that there are unhealthy ones. But that's a false generalisation. Healthy dom/sub relationships do exist. They just don't make the news.

Maybe you think you've never met anyone in a healthy dom/sub relationship. You have. I guarantee it.
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:24 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
There people can't possibly be serious, can they? It's just a game to troll people, right?
They are absolutely serious.
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