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Old 12th May 2019, 07:34 PM   #121
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Are you going to explain what makes it healthy? Apparently some people die from sub/dom relationships, so what's healthy about it? That some people don't die?!
Most people don't die. It's healthy because there is communication amongst all parties, consent is given, there are agreed boundaries, and those boundaries are absolutely not crossed. As soon as an agreed boundary is crossed, there is a problem.

BDSM practitioners, in my experience, are among the happiest and most well-adjusted people on the planet. And it's because this kind of play requires a very high degree of communication and trust.
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:37 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Does anyone know why they wear masks? Seems like it would interfere with the wearer's enjoyment of the experience. Do they wear them publicly for anonymity, or for their partner's benefit, of what?
Yes, these reasons and others. You'd have to ask an individual what they specifically get out of the mask. There'd be no way to accurately generalise.
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:39 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Bondage would also interfere with the enjoyment of ordinary sex, but it stresses the subjugation. I think that arthwollipot in post 25 came up with a fairly good description of what might be at play.
In some cases. Again, it would be an error to say that everyone has the same reasons for the specific behaviours under question.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Masks might be a question of anonymity in a semi-public context, but I think that some people wear them at home as well. Powerplay? Maybe, 'I establish my superiority by making it impossible for you to read my emotions.' Or 'I degrade you by putting a mask on you, taking away your individuality.'
I'm just guessing. I don't remember reading any explanations.
Yes, again, these reasons and others. Different people have different reasons. We won't be able to cover all of them.
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:44 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Well, I don't think that that (the highlighted part) is the case for most of them. It seems to be mainly in the bedroom and not 24-7, and maybe not even all the time. But do you actually find that easy to understand?
Yes. I'm not having a lot of trouble with it at all. I think you're having trouble with it because you've been influenced too much by fringe cases. They are not representative of the scene at all.
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Old 12th May 2019, 07:46 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
It's a shame the world of BDSM is so shadowy and secretive, discouraging its practitioners from writing accounts and essays and blogs and stories and poems and novels and fan fiction and webcomics all describing in painstaking detail their subjective experiences and feelings and posting them for free on the Internet by the tens of thousands. Unfortunately, this leaves us nothing to go by except pop psychology books and wild guessing.*

*Sarcasm. Also, "painstaking," heh heh.
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I got my understanding of BDSM from actual experimentation with a trusted and experienced partner. But yes, there are plenty of resources out there. And it is very important to note that 50 Shades is absolutely NOT one of those resources.
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Old 12th May 2019, 11:55 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
ISF, where uninformed speculation by the ignorant is "skeptical", but actual real life experience is "anecdote" and must be dismissed.

I guess that you refer to my post where I "stress the difference between more or less anecdotal evidence and statistics."
This distinction is usually not frowned upon in ISF, so I don't see why it suddenly becomes dubious in this context. Bikewer mentions that he has read a couple of books written by professional doms, and that according to one woman, "it seems to be the case that the large majority of customers to these establishments are men in positions of power and control."
I have heard this before, I have no reason to dismiss it, and I think it makes a lot of sense that it would be the case, but it's very different from an actual established fact since there could be other reasons why "men in positions of power and control" would be "the large majority of customers," for instance that they have the money that usually comes with those positions.

"Actual real life experience" is an argument that I hear all the time from people who are into alt.med. They know that it works and how it works because they are actually doing it every day, and I am not.
And they are as offended by my skepticism as you are.
"ISF, where ..."
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Old 12th May 2019, 11:57 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"What do they get out of it?"

"Well, here's what I get out it."

"Doesn't count!"

Do you have any more strawmen that you'd like to provide us with?
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Old 13th May 2019, 12:07 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If consent isn't given, it isn't a healthy relationship. It's rape. That shouldn't be too hard to understand.

I think I've identified what the problem is. You don't believe that there is any such thing as a healthy dom/sub relationship because you've seen lots of evidence that there are unhealthy ones. But that's a false generalisation. Healthy dom/sub relationships do exist. They just don't make the news.

Maybe you think you've never met anyone in a healthy dom/sub relationship. You have. I guarantee it.

I think this is the point where we need a definition of "a healthy dom/sub relationship". What you mean appears to be a relationship where the rules have been discussed (negotiated?) and both parties agree to and follow these rules.
Is that a correct interpretation?
Of the people I meet, I have no idea who are in any kind of dom/sub relationship so I don't know how many I've met.


ETA: In the case of Sacher-Masoch, rape doesn't seem to be the correct word. He pressurized his partner into assuming the role of dom. Unpleasant, unhealthy, coercive, yes, but it doesn't fit the definition of rape.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 13th May 2019, 12:13 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think this is the point where we need a definition of "a healthy dom/sub relationship". What you mean appears to be a relationship where the rules have been discussed (negotiated?) and both parties agree to and follow these rules.
Is that a correct interpretation?
Yes. Post #121.
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Of the people I meet, I have no idea who are in any kind of dom/sub relationship so I don't know how many I've met.
Exactly. As I suggested (same post) it's the people who are most secure and happy and trusting in their relationship who are more likely to have engaged in this sort of play. Not an absolute rule - obviously, there will be exceptions - but it's one indication.
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Old 13th May 2019, 12:32 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Most people don't die. It's healthy because there is communication amongst all parties, consent is given, there are agreed boundaries, and those boundaries are absolutely not crossed. As soon as an agreed boundary is crossed, there is a problem.

No, most people don't die. The ones who do are obviously the minority of cases that end up on the front page of tabloids. But I'll warn you against the idealization that seems to be prevalent and becomes obvious in the highlighted part of the quotation: The boundaries are absolutely not supposed to be crossed, but ...

Quote:
BDSM practitioners, in my experience, are among the happiest and most well-adjusted people on the planet. And it's because this kind of play requires a very high degree of communication and trust.

I have a hard time believing the 'shiny happy people' description, and it's not that I think you are lying, but it looks like another example of the idealization of the BDSM community as Ayako Black describes it in the article I linked to in post 96:

Quote:
While members of the BDSM community pay lip service to consent and negotiations, we have a bad habit of ignoring our own consent problems. We often talk about policing our own and punishing those who cross the line. But when push comes to shove, this often doesn’t actually happen, and it’s the victims of such consent violations who pay the price. In spite of our best intention, rape culture is alive and well in the BDSM community. Why I left the BDSM community (The Daily Dot, Dec. 11, 2015)

She mentions that coercion can be found everywhere but adds that the BDSM community is in denial about it, which makes it much more difficult to eradicate:

Quote:
We are so desperate to paint ourselves as consent-loving, happy, “normal” people that there are no real safeguards in place to deal with real problems when they arise.

So it doesn't appear to be true that "those boundaries are absolutely not crossed." On the contrary.


ETA: I think that "a very high degree of communication and trust" is important in any relationship. I would consider a 'kink-free' (vanilla?) relationship without communication and trust unhealthy.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 13th May 2019, 02:21 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Mental disorder would be my guess. Doesn't mean it's bad or should be stopped, but if we can have a myriad of disorders for children who misbehave then surely these people have one or more.

But they don't seem to misbehave. They play being pups who may or may not misbehave.

Quote:
I think maybe the dressing up as dogs for sex isn't so odd, it's the openness of some of these people and the desire to have clubs and "packs" and be in the news. Attention seeking? That is weird, and maybe being weird is part of why they do it.

The ones who appear on Youtube or in the media may be attention seekers, but that probably doesn't describe the majority. And they are probably not "being weird" for the sake of being weird or outrageous. I think that the contents of the activity itself is what they are going for.

Quote:
I'm happy to admit that I don't understand it enough to really know. If dressing as a dog in public will give you the ability to lick your own crotch - that is something I would understand.

I never felt the need for or desirability of that ability myself, but if it characterizes the pup-play community, it might be possible to detect it in the statistics of spinal injuries.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 02:26 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
They are absolutely serious.
I'm confirming my diagnosis of Marge Simpsonitis.
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Old 13th May 2019, 02:33 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
"Actual real life experience" is an argument that I hear all the time from people who are into alt.med. They know that it works and how it works because they are actually doing it every day, and I am not.
And they are as offended by my skepticism as you are.
"ISF, where ..."

Yeah, cos the efficacy of medicine and why people like stuff can be subjected to exactly the same type of double blinded experiments.

Oh, no, wait...
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Old 13th May 2019, 02:43 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
your tone is this thread is very similar to someone questioning someone about them being gay and conflating their behaviour to non consensual acts..

No, it isn't.

Quote:
your first post in this thread included a link to a why are rapist, rapist? thread..

Yes, it did. And in the OP of the ISF thread I link to I make it very clear that rape has nothing to do with homosexuality, and that BDSM may be fantasy rape unlike actual rape: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...2#post12690802

Quote:
i dont spend any of my time wondering why people like mushrooms its not my frigging business what they like... i just dont eat them if they try to feed them to me or take offence if they are offered. what they eat in their own time away from me i dont give a **** and i certainly dont sit their wondering about their mushroom habits whilst posting links to threads about rape....

No, neither do I, but I have on occasion asked people who like stinky cheeses what they taste like. They have never offended by the question.

Quote:
im kinky and bisexual

if you were to preface any questions about my bisexuality with links to paedophilia you would be getting pretty much the same response from me (and ive seen more than enough of that)

I see not reason to do so. Why would I do that? Is this also because you operate from the assumption that I confuse homosexuality with paedophilia and/or rape?

Quote:
if you want a nice honest discussion about my kinky side take a step back and think about how you might actually be coming across...

I have thought about it. I also thought about it before I started the thread about why some people rape. And I'm still wondering about the response to that thread.
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Old 13th May 2019, 03:02 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
this is in the world of "not even wrong"
in the bdsm world a submission is given

it isnt ever given to a wet blanket with a lack of confidence. a Dom doesnt need to be overtly attractive but they certainly do need to have confidence. seduction and the ability to say "here, now"

if thats done well you get submission

I'm sorry, but to me it seems as if you are arguing from the point for view of your fantasy instead of reality. Others have made it very clear that there an awful lot of communication and negotiation is required, safe words etc. You try to make it sound as if submission is just something you "get" if you have the "ability to say "here, now"".
This is one of things that makes me believe Ayako Black's article: Some doms seem to be so into the fantasy of being confident, having the ability to say "here, now," instead of being "wet blankets", that actual consent becomes irrelevant to them. One of Maria Marcus's complaints was that many doms claimed that it was just a sexual thing but that their SM attitude made them behave in similar manners outside of the bedroom, too.

Quote:
also sadism/masochism is a completely different kettle of fish to domination/submission (there is overlap but they are 2 different things)

Maybe, whatever. I wouldn't know, and I won't ask.

Quote:
still not even wrong

maybe you touch the edges for some but for most its much more deeper and different than that

Well ....
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 03:04 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Yeah, cos the efficacy of medicine and why people like stuff can be subjected to exactly the same type of double blinded experiments.

Oh, no, wait...

Oh yes, wait, nobody has actually said or implied anything like that.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 03:06 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm confirming my diagnosis of Marge Simpsonitis.

Yes, you should always be aware of confirmation bias.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 03:14 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Oh yes, wait, nobody has actually said or implied anything like that.
Yeah you did.


I think the problem, at least in part, is that none of us know what it is you're so stridently demanding to know.
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Old 13th May 2019, 04:29 AM   #139
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I also don't make demands.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 07:05 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I also don't make demands.
Oh come don't try to invent some new variation on JAQing off.

"I didn't demand the pervs explain themselves to me, I just asked why they were pervs and they got all pissy about it."
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Old 13th May 2019, 07:15 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Are you going to explain what makes it healthy? Apparently some people die from sub/dom relationships, so what's healthy about it? That some people don't die?!
S&M threatens human life? I know the solution: egg them!
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Old 13th May 2019, 07:26 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus what is this?

Dann if you just want people to point and laugh at the people with the weird kinks with just admit it.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is getting Bob level.

"I demand someone explain to me in mathematical detail how anyone could possibly think, say, do, enjoy, or want something different from me."
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I simply don't understand all these perverts and their desire to have something beyond vanilla, boring, missionary sex on their birthdays with the lights out. Why are these disguising freaks not explaining their unhealthy sinful lives to me better?"
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh come don't try to invent some new variation on JAQing off.

"I didn't demand the pervs explain themselves to me, I just asked why they were pervs and they got all pissy about it."

Your summaries of imaginary posts are very interesting.
Why do you use words and express attitudes that you cannot find in a single one of my posts? Why are you so condescending when you describe "vanilla, boring, missionary sex"?
My favourite position happens to be missionary, and I could explain the reason why if anybody asked, and the question would offend me as little as your posts quoted above.
But forget about my questions. You are probably already busy summarizing them as absurd demands ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 07:32 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
...
From the beginning you have characterized adults in consenting S&M, Sub/Dom, or any other imbalance of power role playing or variations therefore as unhealthy and inherently unsafe.

I'm comfortable with my representation of your arguments.
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Old 13th May 2019, 07:33 AM   #144
dann
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
S&M threatens human life? I know the solution: egg them!

Thread crossover. Very interesting.
I haven't yet seen anybody in the BDSM community propose genocide or massacres, and I can't see why they would. You are probably confusing them with incel extremists. I don't think that the two groups have anything in common. I wouldn't mind anybody egging the latter.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 13th May 2019, 07:37 AM   #145
3point14
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Your summaries of imaginary posts are very interesting.
Why do you use words and express attitudes that you cannot find in a single one of my posts? Why are you so condescending when you describe "vanilla, boring, missionary sex"?
My favourite position happens to be missionary, and I could explain the reason why if anybody asked, and the question would offend me as little as your posts quoted above.
But forget about my questions. You are probably already busy summarizing them as absurd demands ...


Do you genunitely believe that your choice of language in this thread has been that of a neutral party interested only in aquiring knowledge?
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Old 13th May 2019, 08:12 AM   #146
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Do you genuinely believe that my language is anywhere near JoeMorgue's posts?
There is often a reason why people resort to paraphrasing and summaries instead of quotations. They're much better suited for hyperbole and distortions.
The one word I've used that seems to upset people is unhealthy. And I think that I solved the problem some of you had with that - and still have - with arthwollipot.
JoeMorgue's posts are absurd.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 08:28 AM   #147
3point14
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Do you genuinely believe that my language is anywhere near JoeMorgue's posts?
There is often a reason why people resort to paraphrasing and summaries instead of quotations. They're much better suited for hyperbole and distortions.
The one word I've used that seems to upset people is unhealthy. And I think that I solved the problem some of you had with that - and still have - with arthwollipot.
JoeMorgue's posts are absurd.
You didn't answer the question.

Irrespective of Joe's or anyone else's posts, do you believe that the language you have used in the thread is that of a neutral enquirer?
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Old 13th May 2019, 08:49 AM   #148
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Yes.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th May 2019, 08:57 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes.

Crikey.

I think large swathes of your target audience might disagree.
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Old 13th May 2019, 05:49 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
She mentions that coercion can be found everywhere but adds that the BDSM community is in denial about it, which makes it much more difficult to eradicate:

...

So it doesn't appear to be true that "those boundaries are absolutely not crossed." On the contrary.
Notice that I have been talking about a healthy dom/sub relationship. Yes, there are plenty of unhealthy ones. But one of the factors that makes such a relationship healthy is that the boundaries are not crossed.

BDSM tends to attract the kind of people who would abuse trust, due to its nature. If you're the kind of person who wants to abuse someone, the BDSM scene appears on the surface to be the kind of environment where you can engage in such behaviour. If you don't know anything about the scene, and you think 50 Shades of Grey is a representative example (it isn't), then you may be attracted to that kind of abusive relationship.

But let me tell you this. If you're at a BDSM club and you actually engage in this kind of behaviour, you will be kicked out right quick, possibly with some forcefulness, and charges will be laid. Because that is absolutely not tolerated at such events. Such people are not welcome.

The fact that some people have unhealthy dom/sub relationships in no way disproves the idea that some people have healthy ones, any more than the fact that some people have unhealthy vanilla relationships in no way disproves the idea that some people have healthy ones.

You've been trying to argue that the existence of unhealthy relationship means that a healthy dom/sub relationship can't exist. And that's wrong. You need to accept that.

You're talking to people who actually have some experience in the subject, and saying that they're wrong.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
ETA: I think that "a very high degree of communication and trust" is important in any relationship. I would consider a 'kink-free' (vanilla?) relationship without communication and trust unhealthy.
Yes, absolutely. That's how you have a healthy relationship, of whatever flavour. People who violate trust do not have a healthy relationship, regardless of whether puppy masks are involved or not.
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Old 13th May 2019, 06:03 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Crikey.

I think large swathes of your target audience might disagree.
To be fair. Nothing dann has said has been outright insulting. It's more a style thing, and a refusal to accept when he might be wrong.
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Old 13th May 2019, 06:10 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
To be fair. Nothing dann has said has been outright insulting. It's more a style thing, and a refusal to accept when he might be wrong.
Much of what dann has said has been outright insulating.
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Old 13th May 2019, 07:18 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Much of what dann has said has been outright insulating.
Okay, then I'll change my statement to say that I haven't been insulted by it. What has dann said that you find insulting?
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Old 14th May 2019, 12:54 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Notice that I have been talking about a healthy dom/sub relationship. Yes, there are plenty of unhealthy ones. But one of the factors that makes such a relationship healthy is that the boundaries are not crossed.

BDSM tends to attract the kind of people who would abuse trust, due to its nature. If you're the kind of person who wants to abuse someone, the BDSM scene appears on the surface to be the kind of environment where you can engage in such behaviour. If you don't know anything about the scene, and you think 50 Shades of Grey is a representative example (it isn't), then you may be attracted to that kind of abusive relationship.

But let me tell you this. If you're at a BDSM club and you actually engage in this kind of behaviour, you will be kicked out right quick, possibly with some forcefulness, and charges will be laid. Because that is absolutely not tolerated at such events. Such people are not welcome.

I have no way to tell if that is true or not, or to what extent it is true, but it is very different from what Ayako Black (and others) describe, except for the part where you say that "BDSM tends to attract the kind of people who would abuse trust, due to its nature."
I haven't seen or read the Shades series. What I know about BDSM porn is almost exclusively based on Maria Marcus's A Taste for Pain from the early 1970s and a couple of Penthouse letters.

Quote:
The fact that some people have unhealthy dom/sub relationships in no way disproves the idea that some people have healthy ones, any more than the fact that some people have unhealthy vanilla relationships in no way disproves the idea that some people have healthy ones.

You've been trying to argue that the existence of unhealthy relationship means that a healthy dom/sub relationship can't exist. And that's wrong. You need to accept that.

That is why I wanted to make sure what your definition of a healthy BDSM relationship is. Since it seems to be one in which you play by the rules agreed upon, I don't find it hard to believe that such relationships exist and are probably the majority of BDSM relationships.

Quote:
You're talking to people who actually have some experience in the subject, and saying that they're wrong.

When I think they are wrong, I say so. As an outsider, all I can do is compare what I have seen others say with what I see people saying here and draw my conclusions based on that. If those conclusions are wrong, I don't mind being corrected, but I do mind the argument: 'I have the experience and you don't! Here's how I say it is, so that's how it is!'
That attitude may work with a sub, but it also makes you sound like a dom. See ginjawarrior's latest post. It doesn't work with me. Like I said somewhere above, it's the argument that I hear from peddlers of woo all the time: 'We actually do this all the time, you don't, so we're right and you're wrong.'

Quote:
Yes, absolutely. That's how you have a healthy relationship, of whatever flavour. People who violate trust do not have a healthy relationship, regardless of whether puppy masks are involved or not.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th May 2019, 01:01 AM   #155
dann
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Much of what dann has said has been outright insulating.
Okay, then I'll change my statement to say that I haven't been insulted by it. What has dann said that you find insulting?

I live in cold Scandinavia. We are big fans of insulation! Maybe we can still find common ground:
How to soundproof for kinky sex.


ETA: I guess theprestige found this post outright insulating.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 14th May 2019, 01:26 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I have no way to tell if that is true or not, or to what extent it is true, but it is very different from what Ayako Black (and others) describe, except for the part where you say that "BDSM tends to attract the kind of people who would abuse trust, due to its nature."
I haven't seen or read the Shades series. What I know about BDSM porn is almost exclusively based on Maria Marcus's A Taste for Pain from the early 1970s and a couple of Penthouse letters.
Good, so you agree that you know virtually nothing, or at least what you do know is one-sided. A good place to start.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
That is why I wanted to make sure what your definition of a healthy BDSM relationship is. Since it seems to be one in which you play by the rules agreed upon, I don't find it hard to believe that such relationships exist and are probably the majority of BDSM relationships.
Again, good. I'm making progress.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
When I think they are wrong, I say so. As an outsider, all I can do is compare what I have seen others say with what I see people saying here and draw my conclusions based on that. If those conclusions are wrong, I don't mind being corrected, but I do mind the argument: 'I have the experience and you don't! Here's how I say it is, so that's how it is!'
Yes, that's fair enough. I'm not asking you to take my say-so as indisputable gospel. As has been pointed out, there is plenty of material on the internet (and I'm not talking about porn) for you to do your own research on the subject.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
That attitude may work with a sub, but it also makes you sound like a dom. See ginjawarrior's latest post. It doesn't work with me. Like I said somewhere above, it's the argument that I hear from peddlers of woo all the time: 'We actually do this all the time, you don't, so we're right and you're wrong.'
Again, fair enough. I have given you a perspective.

And actually, for the record, I don't do it all the time. I experimented and found myself uncomfortable with it and turned out to be a terrible dom. We amicably decided that she would seek to fulfil her desire to be dominated elsewhere. But in the experimentation, we talked a lot with each other and with other people who were already in the community, so you could say that we did our research thoroughly and I learned a lot from the experience.

My perspective is derived from experience. You don't have to accept that if you don't want to. But it is good that you have accepted that your prior assumption of knowledge is incomplete. I'm satisfied with that.
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Old 14th May 2019, 01:52 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Good, so you agree that you know virtually nothing, or at least what you do know is one-sided. A good place to start.

I don't think that Maria Marcus or Ayoka Black represent one side only. They had the experience that everbody here tells me is sine qua non for knowing about the BDSM community. Having read their stuff, I think I know more than most people.

Quote:
Again, good. I'm making progress.

No, not really. I never assumed that the rules agreed upon would be broken in the majority of BDSM relationships.

Quote:
Yes, that's fair enough. I'm not asking you to take my say-so as indisputable gospel. As has been pointed out, there is plenty of material on the internet (and I'm not talking about porn) for you to do your own research on the subject.

Again, fair enough. I have given you a perspective.

And actually, for the record, I don't do it all the time. I experimented and found myself uncomfortable with it and turned out to be a terrible dom. We amicably decided that she would seek to fulfil her desire to be dominated elsewhere. But in the experimentation, we talked a lot with each other and with other people who were already in the community, so you could say that we did our research thoroughly and I learned a lot from the experience.

My perspective is derived from experience. You don't have to accept that if you don't want to. But it is good that you have accepted that your prior assumption of knowledge is incomplete. I'm satisfied with that.

I understood that you don't do it all the time and that it was a thing in your past. I didn't mean you, arthwollipot, with the "we". I was describing a way of arguing that you find everywhere, not just here. And when woos argue like that here, they are usually called out immediately.
I never assumed that my knowledge was complete. Nor do I assume that yours is.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:03 AM   #158
3point14
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I live in cold Scandinavia.

You're in Scandinavia???

Well, my illusions have been shattered to buggery
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:19 AM   #159
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I occurs to me that when you say:

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I experimented and found myself uncomfortable with it and turned out to be a terrible dom. We amicably decided that she would seek to fulfil her desire to be dominated elsewhere.

Then ginjawarrior would probably describe you as "a wet blanket with a lack of confidence" - the degrading language is certainly admirable, but nobody here except me seems to mind:

Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
in the bdsm world a submission is given

it isnt ever given to a wet blanket with a lack of confidence. a Dom doesnt need to be overtly attractive but they certainly do need to have confidence. seduction and the ability to say "here, now"

if thats done well you get submission

Now based only on what I know about you, arthwollipot, from this forum, of course, you don't strike me as somebody who lacks confidence. And ginjawarrior would probably describe me the same way, too. When I, against my better judgement, once tried to accommodate the need of a woman to have me use humiliating and degrading words about her in bed, it was a complete turnoff for me. Why would I want to call her those things?!
And I think that ginjawarrior has got it as wrong he (?) possibly could: I have the confidence to recognize that I have no need or desire whatsoever to use that kind of language with somebody I love. I don't need to humiliate her, to dominate her or tie her up, in or out of bed.
Needing that and taking pride in one's precious "ability" to do so speaks volumes about confidence, but it doesn't mean that one is bursting with it.
On the contrary, in my opinion.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:25 AM   #160
dann
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
You're in Scandinavia???

Well, my illusions have been shattered to buggery

Don't you have anything substantial at all to contribute with?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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