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Tags abortion issues , abortion laws

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Old 17th May 2019, 01:06 AM   #401
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's based on historical data, which has already been explained.

Hand in hand with legal abortions go better sexual education and less stigma for the use of contraceptics. All of this has been shown to be related.
So if abortion is outlawed, the number of abortions will increase?
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Old 17th May 2019, 01:15 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
So if abortion is outlawed, the number of abortions will increase?
Yes, that's what the historical data seems to show.

Sometimes the world is counterintuitive. The correct response when shown such facts isn't to simply disbelieve them, though you might require more evidence than usual to accept them (extraordinary claims, etc.)
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Old 17th May 2019, 02:08 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post

...

As you put it, the abortion question is a tough nut. It's hard to find arguments whether for or against that have consistency when applied to other facets of life. There doesn't seem to be an absolute answer as to where the line should be drawn. The pain argument makes the most sense to me. From what I've read fetuses can feel pain sometime between 8-16 weeks after conception and so after that there would be restrictions on abortions except in special cases.
What does "feel pain" mean? Be conscious of, and distressed by, the pain? Or simply react to a negative stimulus in order to escape it? Organisms that don't even have a nervous system do the latter. If foetal nociceptors are 'firing' it doesn't necessarily mean that the foetus is conscious of the event or experiencing distress.

"By the end of the first trimester (12 weeks) nerve cells are beginning to form rudimentary connections between different areas of the brain. However, these connections are sparse and incapable of performing the same functions as an adult brain. So by 12 weeks, although the fetus is certainly starting to look like a little human, the neural circuits responsible for conscious awareness are yet to develop." link
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Old 17th May 2019, 03:26 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
So if abortion is outlawed, the number of abortions will increase?
Yes, absolutely.
Because when sexual issues are stigmatized, people will be scared to ask for contraception for fear of being accused of seeking an abortion.
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Old 17th May 2019, 04:41 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Then perhaps if the question is unsettled, the government should not impose a particular view on everyone, and leave it to the conscience of the person who will have to live with the consequences.
I suppose that's what the right to privacy ruling of Roe v. Wade aimed at.

I won't argue against that view, at least for now. It's different than what got me into this discussion to begin with, which was that some folk expressed the opinion that pro-lifers are just obviously, undeniably wrong. It is common to add that they must be motivated by pure misogyny, but I don't recall that much in this thread. I find that appalling in the same way that pro-lifers arguing that their opponents don't give a damn about babies' lives.
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Old 17th May 2019, 04:45 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I'm trying hard to figure out how that could possibly be true; it seems to me like you are just using post hoc reasoning.
I think so too. There is, I imagine, a strong correlation between abortion rights and availability of contraception, sex education and the empowerment of women to make their sexual choices. It is not the legality of abortion which decreases the demand, but the progressive attitudes towards sex and women's rights that leads to both abortion rights and decreased demand.

Obviously, I don't have the data (or, frankly, the statistical know-how) to justify this opinion.
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Old 17th May 2019, 04:46 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I think he was saying that that one argument doesn't settle the issue, not that it isn't settled by other arguments.
No, I'll grant that I'm unaware of any argument which settles the issue.
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Old 17th May 2019, 04:47 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No, I'll grant that I'm unaware of any argument which settles the issue.
Sure, but that's different from the claim that no such argument exists.
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Old 17th May 2019, 04:48 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's based on historical data, which has already been explained.

Hand in hand with legal abortions go better sexual education and less stigma for the use of contraceptics. All of this has been shown to be related.
Historical data provides information about correlations. To go straight from the correlation to a claim about the cause of decreased demand is an example of post hoc reasoning.

ETA: I imagine that the situation is more complicated than I first said. Legal abortion probably does lead to more progressive attitudes and hence decrease in demand. But, more often than not, it is also the presence of progressive attitudes which leads to legal abortion in the first place.

Last edited by phiwum; 17th May 2019 at 04:51 AM.
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Old 17th May 2019, 04:55 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Historical data provides information about correlations. To go straight from the correlation to a claim about the cause of decreased demand is an example of post hoc reasoning.

ETA: I imagine that the situation is more complicated than I first said. Legal abortion probably does lead to more progressive attitudes and hence decrease in demand. But, more often than not, it is also the presence of progressive attitudes which leads to legal abortion in the first place.
Legal abortion, yes. Abortion, no. There's a massive difference.
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Old 17th May 2019, 04:56 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Sure, but that's different from the claim that no such argument exists.
Yes, it's different. I wouldn't have said there was no possible proof deciding Fermat's last theorem prior to Wiles's discovery of a proof. A long history of failing to settle an issue is not proof that it cannot be settled. It is evidence, I suppose, but certainly not proof.
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Old 17th May 2019, 04:57 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Legal abortion, yes. Abortion, no. There's a massive difference.
Yes, I get that.
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Old 17th May 2019, 05:10 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Historical data provides information about correlations. To go straight from the correlation to a claim about the cause of decreased demand is an example of post hoc reasoning.

ETA: I imagine that the situation is more complicated than I first said. Legal abortion probably does lead to more progressive attitudes and hence decrease in demand. But, more often than not, it is also the presence of progressive attitudes which leads to legal abortion in the first place.
It's not really that complicated. We're not trying to track down carcinogens in industrial runoff or anything. The same special interests trying to outlaw abortion also push for abstinence-only sex education and moral codes that hinge on the appearance of chastity, neither of which work. So you end up with a lot more unwanted babies because no one is teaching kids how to properly avoid them, no one is there to help them, which means a lot more back alley abortions. Because even a dumbass kid who gets knocked up can be a responsible enough adult to see it's a bad idea to bring a child into a world that can't care for it.
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Old 17th May 2019, 05:35 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I'm trying hard to figure out how that could possibly be true; it seems to me like you are just using post hoc reasoning.
Except.... it did happen. It does happen. That's one of those pesky "facts."

"Legal abortions cause abortions rates to drop long term" isn't some hypothetical. It's happened multiple times.
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Old 17th May 2019, 05:38 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
So if abortion is outlawed, the number of abortions will increase?
Yes. If you disagree your argument is with reality, not anyone in this thread.

Our choices are "X number of safe, legal abortions" and "X+ numbers of unsafe, illegal abortions."

That's just the first of many places where all the "bUt WhAt aBOUt da liTTLe bAbiES!" nonsense gets thrown out the window.

If you care about fetuses as people, you're pro-abortion.

If you care about punishing women for being sluts because it makes the baby Jeebus cry, you're anti-abortion.
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Old 17th May 2019, 06:13 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes. If you disagree your argument is with reality, not anyone in this thread.

Our choices are "X number of safe, legal abortions" and "X+ numbers of unsafe, illegal abortions."

That's just the first of many places where all the "bUt WhAt aBOUt da liTTLe bAbiES!" nonsense gets thrown out the window.

If you care about fetuses as people, you're pro-abortion.

If you care about punishing women for being sluts because it makes the baby Jeebus cry, you're anti-abortion.
There's an important wrinkle you're overlooking: that of ethical deniability. For many people, it matters less that a bad thing is happening than if they feel responsible for that bad thing happening. Outlawing abortion may result in more abortions, but that's acceptable because at least they aren't condoning the abortion by making it legal. Nevermind that's not how society works, and they really are still responsible for the situation, the important thing is they feel their hands are clean. See where I'm coming from?

It's the same reason methadone clinics get so much pushback: despite being the most effective method of reducing hard drug addiction by providing addicts a reliable route to cleaning themselves up, they're still technically giving drugs to drug addicts and people don't approve of that, damn the consequences.
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Old 17th May 2019, 06:19 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
There's an important wrinkle you're overlooking: that of ethical deniability. For many people, it matters less that a bad thing is happening than if they feel responsible for that bad thing happening. Outlawing abortion may result in more abortions, but that's acceptable because at least they aren't condoning the abortion by making it legal. Nevermind that's not how society works, and they really are still responsible for the situation, the important thing is they feel their hands are clean. See where I'm coming from?

It's the same reason methadone clinics get so much pushback: despite being the most effective method of reducing hard drug addiction by providing addicts a reliable route to cleaning themselves up, they're still technically giving drugs to drug addicts and people don't approve of that, damn the consequences.
Yeah but in most discussions the side that makes this an issue can just... get over it by being honest about what their actual issue is.

A methadone clinic makes sense if you want to reduce the number of hard drug addicts. It does not make sense if you feel there is some moral imperative to punish people for becoming addicted to hard drugs.

Same thing with abortion. Just admit "We think women should be punished for being sexually active outside of very narrowly defined sexual gender roles." Then at least your stance is internally consistent.

The paradox you bring up is valid, but it only exists because one side is being transparently dishonest with what their actual issue is because the actual issue they have it too distasteful to promote, so they have to speak in code.
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Old 17th May 2019, 06:28 AM   #418
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//Slight hijack//

I will say one thing though the whole "Handmaiden's Tale" metaphor has been run into the ground at this point and people are starting to get blinded by the metaphor.

I get it, for progressives, abortion rights advocates, and feminists it's usurped 1984 as the "Handy go-to universal dystopian literature metaphor" and they've been trigger happy for a chance to use it for a while now but enough is enough.
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Old 17th May 2019, 07:32 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
What does "feel pain" mean? Be conscious of, and distressed by, the pain? Or simply react to a negative stimulus in order to escape it? Organisms that don't even have a nervous system do the latter. If foetal nociceptors are 'firing' it doesn't necessarily mean that the foetus is conscious of the event or experiencing distress.

"By the end of the first trimester (12 weeks) nerve cells are beginning to form rudimentary connections between different areas of the brain. However, these connections are sparse and incapable of performing the same functions as an adult brain. So by 12 weeks, although the fetus is certainly starting to look like a little human, the neural circuits responsible for conscious awareness are yet to develop." link
My statement was just a general reference to pain as I'm not knowledgeable enough on the specifics such as you describe. I'd leave that determination up to a panel of qualified scientists who have studied that area.
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Old 17th May 2019, 07:45 AM   #420
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Quote:
State Senator Linda Coleman-Madison proposed an amendment to the bill that would require the state to provide free prenatal and medical care for mothers who had been denied an abortion by the new law. Her amendment was struck down by a vote of 23-6.
https://www.newsweek.com/alabama-abo...h-care-1426643

Pro life really is an inaccurate descriptor. You don't care about the life of the child or mother when you deny things like healthcare, education, food, and other support.
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Old 17th May 2019, 07:45 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Except.... it did happen. It does happen. That's one of those pesky "facts."

"Legal abortions cause abortions rates to drop long term" isn't some hypothetical. It's happened multiple times.
Making abortion legal is often followed by a decrease in abortion rates. To go from that to a causal claim is precisely what post hoc means, absent good independent reasoning for the causal connection (that is, an explanation of the cause not dependent on the correlation already observed).
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Old 17th May 2019, 07:57 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Making abortion legal is often followed by a decrease in abortion rates. To go from that to a causal claim is precisely what post hoc means, absent good independent reasoning for the causal connection (that is, an explanation of the cause not dependent on the correlation already observed).
That's... like completely not true but whatever. Exactly 37 angels can dance on the head of a pin. I'm not proving cause and effect are thing and the universe doesn't run on random dream logic to a philosophizer yet again on this board.

If everytime you let go of a rock it falls to the ground that's cause and effect, not "Insert Latin Word Here."
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:07 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Except.... it did happen. It does happen. That's one of those pesky "facts."

"Legal abortions cause abortions rates to drop long term" isn't some hypothetical. It's happened multiple times.
Birth rates have gone down overall, though. It's possible that the decline in abortion rates has nothing to do with the legalization of abortion.
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:11 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That's... like completely not true but whatever. Exactly 37 angels can dance on the head of a pin. I'm not proving cause and effect are thing and the universe doesn't run on random dream logic to a philosophizer yet again on this board.

If everytime you let go of a rock it falls to the ground that's cause and effect, not "Insert Latin Word Here."
You really don't understand the difference between correlation and causation, do you? And yet my studies in philosophy have not hampered my ability to recognize the difference.

Let's suppose that there are a million instances in which abortion has been legalized and in every instance, the rate has subsequently dropped. Heck, let's presume that every time it's been outlawed, the rate also went up. It does not follow that the drop in the rate was caused by the legalization.

I'm not talking about remote chances of coincidence here. I'm also not talking about philosophical issues involving the problem of induction. I'm talking about something much simpler. It may be that legalization and drops in abortion rates have a common cause, namely progressive values regarding sexual relations. A nation which legalizes abortion is likely to do so because it is developing more a progressive attitude towards sex. Such a change will also eventually lead to a decrease in abortions sought, since contraception will be more readily available and people more knowledgeable about sex and its consequences.

But, go on. Keep showing your intellectual superiority by displaying an irrational fear of Latin. I'm feeling might redfaced, I can tell you. I tremble in shame before your wisdom, I tell you what.
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Old 17th May 2019, 08:59 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You really don't understand the difference between correlation and causation, do you? And yet my studies in philosophy have not hampered my ability to recognize the difference.

Let's suppose that there are a million instances in which abortion has been legalized and in every instance, the rate has subsequently dropped. Heck, let's presume that every time it's been outlawed, the rate also went up. It does not follow that the drop in the rate was caused by the legalization.

I'm not talking about remote chances of coincidence here. I'm also not talking about philosophical issues involving the problem of induction. I'm talking about something much simpler. It may be that legalization and drops in abortion rates have a common cause, namely progressive values regarding sexual relations. A nation which legalizes abortion is likely to do so because it is developing more a progressive attitude towards sex. Such a change will also eventually lead to a decrease in abortions sought, since contraception will be more readily available and people more knowledgeable about sex and its consequences.

But, go on. Keep showing your intellectual superiority by displaying an irrational fear of Latin. I'm feeling might redfaced, I can tell you. I tremble in shame before your wisdom, I tell you what.
There seems to be an overall correlation between free markets, improved standards of living, more liberal attitudes toward sex, decreased abortion rates, and decreased pregancy and birth rates. I defy JoeMorgue or anyone else to demonstrate which of these things is causing which of these other things.
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Old 17th May 2019, 09:02 AM   #426
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I'm pretty sure that phiwum is correct about the difference between correlation and causation. If there's a peer-reviewed study that says otherwise, I could be convinced, but I doubt such a rigorous study exists. (I tried looking for one too, but what I found seemed to show the opposite; however, it comes from a pro-life source so I remain skeptical.)

I have a new question now, about this philosopher who says that abortion is wrong.
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
By the way, Marquis chickens out at the beginning of the article and explicitly omits pregnancy due to rape from the discussion. I think this is intellectual cowardice on his part, since his argument applies equally well to that case. If he had the courage of his convictions, he would say that abortion is wrong even in that case, seems to me.
Would he also say that, by the same logic, every embryo created through in vitro fertilization must also be allowed to live? Or would the same logic make the whole concept of in vitro fertilization morally impermissible?

Here's a fact: 1.7 million human embryos created for IVF thrown away

(That's only in the UK. I would imagine the number for the US is about 5 times larger).

So, it's not only elective abortion, it's also fertility clinics that are creating millions of human embryos which will never be born. Why no similar efforts to ban that practice? Is it just that people aren't aware of it?
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Old 17th May 2019, 09:04 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There seems to be an overall correlation between free markets, improved standards of living, more liberal attitudes toward sex, decreased abortion rates, and decreased pregancy and birth rates. I defy JoeMorgue or anyone else to demonstrate which of these things is causing which of these other things.
I'm guessing that more effective birth control and more access to birth control has at least something to do with it.
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Old 17th May 2019, 09:18 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You really don't understand the difference between correlation and causation, do you?
I understand that you understand it as "I can just call any result I don't like an ad hoc."

Quote:
But, go on. Keep showing your intellectual superiority by displaying an irrational fear of Latin. I'm feeling might redfaced, I can tell you. I tremble in shame before your wisdom, I tell you what.
Again I'll take it over you telling the 13 year old rape victim to carry the baby.

Until you can, without some stupid philosophical existential crisis tacked on to, understand that this is a bad thing, I'm not only okay being judged by you I welcome it.
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Old 17th May 2019, 09:21 AM   #429
Brainster
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Except.... it did happen. It does happen. That's one of those pesky "facts."

"Legal abortions cause abortions rates to drop long term" isn't some hypothetical. It's happened multiple times.
You're ignoring every other change that has happened in society since Roe. If your argument is that legal abortion and sex education and widespread availability of effective contraception leads to lower abortion rates, then I can see it being likely, but it seems pretty obvious that the latter two are more likely the cause than the former.

About the only way I could see legal abortion in the absence of other changes leading to lower abortion rates long-term is if you make the argument that the babies who have been aborted would have grown up to have very high abortion rates but for the fact that they themselves were aborted. It's an intriguing argument but certainly not provable.

BTW, abortion was legal in some states in the US before Roe.
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Last edited by Brainster; 17th May 2019 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 17th May 2019, 09:26 AM   #430
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Worth noting: Abortion was legal when the U.S. was founded. The first anti-abortion laws in the early 1800s had nothing to do with any view of when human life begins.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/histo...=.5a3b8f448951
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Old 17th May 2019, 09:41 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm guessing that more effective birth control and more access to birth control has at least something to do with it.
That's my guess, too. I think for most purposes, we are fine with stipulating that guess as correct.

That is of course very different from JoeMorgue's proven causation.
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Old 17th May 2019, 09:50 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Making abortion legal is often followed by a decrease in abortion rates. To go from that to a causal claim is precisely what post hoc means, absent good independent reasoning for the causal connection (that is, an explanation of the cause not dependent on the correlation already observed).
Was there something wrong with the explanation I provided?
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Old 17th May 2019, 11:15 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm pretty sure that phiwum is correct about the difference between correlation and causation. If there's a peer-reviewed study that says otherwise, I could be convinced, but I doubt such a rigorous study exists. (I tried looking for one too, but what I found seemed to show the opposite; however, it comes from a pro-life source so I remain skeptical.)

I have a new question now, about this philosopher who says that abortion is wrong.

Would he also say that, by the same logic, every embryo created through in vitro fertilization must also be allowed to live? Or would the same logic make the whole concept of in vitro fertilization morally impermissible?

Here's a fact: 1.7 million human embryos created for IVF thrown away

(That's only in the UK. I would imagine the number for the US is about 5 times larger).

So, it's not only elective abortion, it's also fertility clinics that are creating millions of human embryos which will never be born. Why no similar efforts to ban that practice? Is it just that people aren't aware of it?
I hesitate to state with confidence what he'd say, partly because of the caveat at the beginning of his article.

Quote:
The purpose of this essay is to set out an argument for the claim that abortion, except perhaps in rare instances, is seriously wrong. One reason for these exceptions is to eliminate from consideration cases whose ethical analysis should be controversial and detailed for clear-headed opponents of abortion. Such cases include abortion after rape and abortion during the first fourteen days after conception, when there is an argument that the fetus is not definitely an individual. Another reason for making these exceptions is to allow for those cases in which the permissibility of abortion is compatible with the argument of this essay. Such cases include abortion when continuation of a pregnancy endangers a woman's life and abortion when the fetus is anencephalic.
I've already said that I don't see how the rape case is hard to settle, given his argument, but perhaps he didn't want to draw a conclusion there without further thought. I don't know what is special about the fetus during the first fourteen days that makes it controversial whether it counts as a being at all. He could be referring to biological facts of which I am quite ignorant.

I'm guessing he would want to exclude embryos produced through in vitro fertilization as requiring specific, detailed thought.

The article was published back in 1989. I am not aware of any later contributions to the topic, since my only familiarity with Marquis comes from selecting this text for intro courses.

Sorry I couldn't give a clearer answer. If you want my opinion (trying to mimic Marquis's thinking), a fertilized embryo does not have a future like ours until it is in an environment in which it will naturally develop into a full-fledged person. I don't like that answer much, but it's an off-the-cuff suggestion. It seems to draw a distinction between doing to and bringing about that many find dubious, perhaps Marquis among them.
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Old 17th May 2019, 11:19 AM   #434
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I listened to a discussion on NPR where it was mentioned that the abortion rate in France was about half that of the US.
France has mandatory sex education, paid pregnancy leave, subsidized child care, easy access to contraceptives, etc.
These are things that the fundamentalist pro-life crowd seems to despise.... Perhaps getting back to the “wages of sin” argument.
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Old 17th May 2019, 11:44 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I understand that you understand it as "I can just call any result I don't like an ad hoc."
You weren't accused of ad hoc reasoning, but of a particular fallacy, post hoc. The accusation was apt.

Quote:
Again I'll take it over you telling the 13 year old rape victim to carry the baby.

Until you can, without some stupid philosophical existential crisis tacked on to, understand that this is a bad thing, I'm not only okay being judged by you I welcome it.
This criticism is about the claim that legalized abortion causes decreased demand. You have not shown a causal relation, but merely a correlation.

There are many other good reasons for legalized abortion. This criticism does not address those reasons nor is this criticism an argument against legalized abortion. It is simply an argument that one particular causal claim has not been justified by a mere correlation.

If all that is lost on you, well, I don't know what to say. It's not a subtle point.

ETA: Is it just me or are Joe's last two paragraphs best summarized as, "Either agree with my causal claim or you hate young, pregnant victims of rape?"

Last edited by phiwum; 17th May 2019 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 17th May 2019, 11:52 AM   #436
phiwum
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You're ignoring every other change that has happened in society since Roe. If your argument is that legal abortion and sex education and widespread availability of effective contraception leads to lower abortion rates, then I can see it being likely, but it seems pretty obvious that the latter two are more likely the cause than the former.

About the only way I could see legal abortion in the absence of other changes leading to lower abortion rates long-term is if you make the argument that the babies who have been aborted would have grown up to have very high abortion rates but for the fact that they themselves were aborted. It's an intriguing argument but certainly not provable.

BTW, abortion was legal in some states in the US before Roe.
There is another indirect effect perhaps. Legalizing abortion might contribute to more progressive values regarding sex practices to some extent. Such values lead to legalization and may also be strengthened by legalization and it is the values which decrease demand, not the legal status of abortion directly.
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Old 17th May 2019, 12:05 PM   #437
phiwum
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Was there something wrong with the explanation I provided?
Do you mean the "clean hands" argument? I don't see how it's directly related to the discussion of whether or not legal abortion decreases demand.

I also personally think you are too dismissive of those who desire clean hands. If something is dreadfully bad, morally speaking, then it shouldn't be sanctioned by the state. If it is not merely dreadfully bad to oneself but to someone wholly innocent, then it should be made illegal, even if doing so brings about other bad effects unintentionally. Of course, one should compare the effects of the bad side effects and that may be reason to keep it legal.

If I were pro-life, the negative effects of criminalized abortion may be outweighed by the moral harm of allowing legal abortions. If I thought it was murder, I would not think that the state should make it legal just so it's safer for the murderers.

I totally understand that some think that ethics is less important than results. I understand utilitarians who say ethical judgments are based on results alone even better. I don't share either position.

The methadone clinic is a fine example. I think that it should be illegal to sell opiates to abusers, but I favor methadone clinics. This seems to be an inconsistency in my thinking, but I view addicts primarily as victims or at least not responsible for their current abuse. The woman requesting an abortion is responsible in a way that an addict feeding his addiction is not. Responsibility in this case is a matter of degree and I don't mean to absolve the addict of all responsibility.

I'm not at all satisfied with the above analysis.

Is this more or less the response you requested?
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Old 17th May 2019, 01:43 PM   #438
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No... I meant my post responding to you just above that one. But nice rant.
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Old 17th May 2019, 04:20 PM   #439
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Can anybody put forth a coherent defense of punishing doctors while the person who ordered the hit is held harmless? I think there might be issues, possibly constitutional issues, just with that part of these new state laws. Also invoking God at the bill-signing strikes me as ... unconstitutional. I don't know exactly what's covered under the "establishment" clause but my understanding is it's pretty broad.
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Old 17th May 2019, 04:28 PM   #440
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I listened to a discussion on NPR where it was mentioned that the abortion rate in France was about half that of the US.
France has mandatory sex education, paid pregnancy leave, subsidized child care, easy access to contraceptives, etc.
These are things that the fundamentalist pro-life crowd seems to despise.... Perhaps getting back to the “wages of sin” argument.
Yup. It's all about punishing the sluts, one way or another.
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