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Old 12th January 2022, 07:55 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Worse.

If your lifestyle permits it, a pet can really be a nice thing. Kids, not so much.
For people who actually want kids, they can be extremely fulfilling and worth every minute spent changing nappies and going to cold early morning football games and ignoring shopping centre tantrums. That being said, whether someone chooses to have children or not to, it is nobody's business but theirs. They shouldn't have to justify or defend their choice to anyone. In the >7B population world, not having children is a perfectly valid choice for anyone for any reason.

Originally Posted by AmyStrange View Post
Don't priest and nuns have to take a vow of poverty or something like that?
Some monastic orders require a vow of poverty but it is certainly not required for priests. And nuns are not female priests. The Roman Catholic Church does not permit women to become priests, though anyone can be a monk or a nun if they choose.
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Old 26th January 2022, 06:57 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post

Some monastic orders require a vow of poverty but it is certainly not required for priests. And nuns are not female priests. The Roman Catholic Church does not permit women to become priests, though anyone can be a monk or a nun if they choose.

Hummm ..... I wonder how the RCC would handle an application from someone who is trans or identifies as neither male or female exclusively.*

Has Francis ever uttered any words of wisdom on this subject?

*Incidentally, my God bothering nephew, does not recognise the existence of any diversity of sexuality whatever. Such things are are the Devil's work and driving out of Demons the solution.
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Old 26th January 2022, 07:04 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Hummm ..... I wonder how the RCC would handle an application from someone who is trans or identifies as neither male or female exclusively.*

Has Francis ever uttered any words of wisdom on this subject?
I actually don't know. I'm not sure that it's ever been tested. I can't imagine that it would go down well.

This statement I found on catholic.com is full of stigmatising language and anti-trans sentiment, so I think that's pretty indicative.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
*Incidentally, my God bothering nephew, does not recognise the existence of any diversity of sexuality whatever. Such things are are the Devil's work and driving out of Demons the solution.
Yeah, that sounds like an evangelical church's response. Interesting contrast.
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Old 26th January 2022, 09:16 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I actually don't know. I'm not sure that it's ever been tested. I can't imagine that it would go down well.

This statement I found on catholic.com is full of stigmatising language and anti-trans sentiment, so I think that's pretty indicative.
Thanks for the link . Typical evasive response from the RCC.

Quote:
Yeah, that sounds like an evangelical church's response. Interesting contrast.

Yes my nephew is quite evangelical. Mind you I still have some affection for him, and not not have to retrain myself from killing him - refer to our congenial discussion on another thread.
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Old 26th January 2022, 09:23 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thanks for the link . Typical evasive response from the RCC.
I don't think it's evasive at all. I think it lays out the Catholic position on transgender issues quite clearly.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes my nephew is quite evangelical. Mind you I still have some affection for him, and not not have to retrain myself from killing him - refer to our congenial discussion on another thread.
I can compartmentalise, sometimes.
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Old 27th January 2022, 04:36 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
For people who actually want kids, they can be extremely fulfilling and worth every minute spent changing nappies and going to cold early morning football games and ignoring shopping centre tantrums.

...snip..
Nah that's just biological coding, kicks in and screws your thinking up. Any cost v benefit analysis worth its weight in nappies would show there is no rational reason to have kids.



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Old 27th January 2022, 05:09 AM   #47
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YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


The above discusses biology. The title is "There Are More Than Two Human Sexes". It is published by Scishow.

Edit. All you were taught on the subject at school was not quite right.
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Old 27th January 2022, 05:27 AM   #48
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The Pope is only stating RCC doctrine that a marriage is for the purpose of procreation.

Prospective couples wishing to marry in the RCC are asked if they are willing to bring children into the marriage. If the answer is "no" then the priest may decline to perform the marriage. There was a case in the 1980s of a quadriplegic who was initially denied marriage by the Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix because he was unable to consumate the marriage (this decision was overturned on appeal https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...-f69a59e7d62c/).

Catholics of course have vowed to heed the Pope's instructions but whether he can speak for non-Catholics is another matter.
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Old 27th January 2022, 07:08 AM   #49
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And keep in mind that marrying is the second-best option for the RCC.
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Old 27th January 2022, 10:46 PM   #50
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It's always fascinatingly revealing when people call some behavior they don't approve of "selfish". It's a tacit admission that those who do that thing are better off that way. The same people would almost always deny that that's the case if you just put it to them that way, but the only way a behavior can be selfish is if it benefits those who do it. If it didn't, then doing it wouldn't be selfish. (Odd how this comes up with living kid-free more than pretty much all other subjects combined...)
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Old 27th January 2022, 11:05 PM   #51
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Oh, now I get it. He meant to have and raise and take care of. I thought he was talking about choosing one or the other as sex partners. What he said makes so much more sense now.
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Old 28th January 2022, 09:13 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It's always fascinatingly revealing when people call some behavior they don't approve of "selfish". It's a tacit admission that those who do that thing are better off that way. The same people would almost always deny that that's the case if you just put it to them that way, but the only way a behavior can be selfish is if it benefits those who do it. If it didn't, then doing it wouldn't be selfish. (Odd how this comes up with living kid-free more than pretty much all other subjects combined...)
It's fashionable in Christian religions at least to claim that God gives away his grace for free, but it seems his agents demand a fee to cover their running cost. The Catholic Church has codified this, declaring that the institution itself is not just good and necessary but a holy being in its own right. (Forget that little ditty about "two or three gathered together," that's just locker room talk.)

We're said to be born, even conceived, in sin which the Church must, at great cost, rectify. And yet, part of the price we must pay for this is to promise to produce more sinners. Not only is it selfish to opt out of the mating bargain, but a sin to do it any way but theirs. A bizarre prison in which release is granted only to those who promise to propagate crime. They call it selfishness, but what they really mean is freeloading.

It should come as no surprise that so many of those who promulgate conspiracy theories suggesting that the medical profession's goal is to make us perpetually sick and dependent are doctrinaire Christians. It's just what their churches do.

Say what you will about old Jehovah, he loves his work.
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Old 28th January 2022, 11:21 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The Pope is only stating RCC doctrine that a marriage is for the purpose of procreation.
<snip>
If this was true then they should refuse to marry women who are too old to have children. But they don't. They can get around this by saying it is also to help raise grandchildren.
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Old 29th January 2022, 04:50 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
If this was true then they should refuse to marry women who are too old to have children. But they don't. They can get around this by saying it is also to help raise grandchildren.
The RCC being hypocritical? Say it isn't so!!
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Old 29th January 2022, 04:59 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
If this was true then they should refuse to marry women who are too old to have children. But they don't. They can get around this by saying it is also to help raise grandchildren.
Werll, my great-uncle and aunt worked for opposing intel agencies and got married post retirement in their sixties. Children were simply not an option at that point. RCC had no problem with that.

So what exactly is the RCC position? Because it seems to change situationally.
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Old 29th January 2022, 05:04 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Werll, my great-uncle and aunt worked for opposing intel agencies and got married post retirement in their sixties. Children were simply not an option at that point. RCC had no problem with that.

So what exactly is the RCC position? Because it seems to change situationally.
They change their minds every time their infallible god changes its mind.
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Old 29th January 2022, 05:05 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
...snip...

We're said to be born, even conceived, in sin which the Church must, at great cost, rectify. And yet, part of the price we must pay for this is to promise to produce more sinners. Not only is it selfish to opt out of the mating bargain, but a sin to do it any way but theirs.
...snip....
Keep in mind however that for the RCC marriage is the second best choice, we shouldn't be getting married at all, ideally we would all be single and celibate (like their priests.....), only if we can't manage that should we get married and then when married only have sex with the intent to have a kid, not for enjoyment.


Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
If this was true then they should refuse to marry women who are too old to have children. But they don't. They can get around this by saying it is also to help raise grandchildren.
You are forgetting this is an organisation that believes in miracles i.e. magic and the supernatural, god might cause a miracle to happen so the infecund woman* may have a child, we cannot put a limit on what god can do (look at all those prosthetic limbs that are left behind at Lourdes).


*Obviously any failure to have a child is the woman's fault.
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Old 29th January 2022, 05:35 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Keep in mind however that for the RCC marriage is the second best choice, we shouldn't be getting married at all, ideally we would all be single and celibate (like their priests.....), only if we can't manage that should we get married and then when married only have sex with the intent to have a kid, not for enjoyment.
Well, see, I have always wondered about that.Being raised in an RCC home as RCC decades ago, the obvious occurred to me. If every catholic is chaste and pure and does not engage in that dirty sex activity, then what? The RCC would be gone in a single generation.

It is "holy" to be a virgin. Not having sex is a virtue. At some point, some loon thought about the consequences of such a path. So now they have to invent a reason why sex might be excused so long as they are making new catholics. This notion persists. Why? I have no idea.

The oddness of religion is not to be underestimated.
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Old 29th January 2022, 05:41 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
At some point, some loon thought about the consequences of such a path.
Sadly (for them), there was no such loon amongst the Shakers.
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Old 29th January 2022, 06:00 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Sadly (for them), there was no such loon amongst the Shakers.
They live on in kitchen furniture, I guess.
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Old 29th January 2022, 06:55 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
...snip...

So what exactly is the RCC position? Because it seems to change situationally.
Never! I mean we all know there can't be married priests.... That would never happen, until it was convenient in the USSR to have married priests... or to poach priests joining from the CofE.
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Old 29th January 2022, 06:57 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Well, see, I have always wondered about that.Being raised in an RCC home as RCC decades ago, the obvious occurred to me. If every catholic is chaste and pure and does not engage in that dirty sex activity, then what? The RCC would be gone in a single generation.

It is "holy" to be a virgin. Not having sex is a virtue. At some point, some loon thought about the consequences of such a path. So now they have to invent a reason why sex might be excused so long as they are making new catholics. This notion persists. Why? I have no idea.

The oddness of religion is not to be underestimated.
Remember that the Jesus bloke was due back in the lifetime of those he preached to... so why would there be any need for kids.....
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Old 29th January 2022, 08:18 AM   #63
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The Church has it both ways. The prudish Paul said it's better to marry than to burn. But it's always relative, and there's always a catch. You ought to opt out of sex, but only for the right reason. Just to skip it without holy sacrifice is just as bad as doing it without holy sanction. The Church sets an ideal that cannot be met, and then adds a loophole whereby you can get around it at a price. Don't want to be a holy virgin or a monk? Get married our way and do it our way and have a bunch of kids our way. The price for relaxing one rule is a set of new ones.

Any good church knows that the best way to keep people in the pews is to control sex. Most of the time it's enough to control how you do it, but just in case, they'll find a rule for how you don't.
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Old 29th January 2022, 02:30 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
The Church has it both ways. The prudish Paul said it's better to marry than to burn.

Paul had his loincloth in a twist about sex.
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Old 30th January 2022, 08:59 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nah that's just biological coding, kicks in and screws your thinking up. Any cost v benefit analysis worth its weight in nappies would show there is no rational reason to have kids.
Sometimes people do things for irrational reasons that they do not later regret.

But let me be clear. If someone is trying to tell you that you should be having kids, ignore them. You and your partner decide whether you want kids. Nobody else. Not your mother, not the church, and certainly not some internet rando on a message board.
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