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Old 27th January 2022, 08:53 AM   #41
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This all makes me wonder just how much of the Republican party has been compromised by Russian dark money. My rubles are on "all of it, barring exceptions like Liz Cheney" and it is STILL damn weird to think of a Cheney as the moral backbone of their dumpster fire of a party.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
To drag things back on topic, I would simply point out that Carlson largely has a good point that it seems odd that Americans are expected to care deeply about this entirely foreign affair. Why exactly is the sovereignty of Ukraine something we should all be so animated about, and why aggressive intervention (up to engaging in direct warfare) the automatic solution?
Two reasons:

1) Because we said we would. We promised to defend Ukraine's sovereignty from Russia as part of the deal for Ukraine to denuclearize its arsenal. They gave up the best deterrent they could possibly have specifically because we said we'd have their backs in this exact situation. If we don't help them protect their sovereignty from Russia, in the specific circumstance where we said we would, why should the next tinpot dictator who gets their mitts on a nuke believe we'll honor whatever deal we propose with them to give it up?

2) If the obligations of realpolitik aren't enough and you need a moral argument, then we should do it precisely because we don't want to. As a world-spanning society we should be over this by now. We've had seventy years of more or less peace, with direct warfare replaced by proxy wars bombing the hell out of some developing nation, and that replaced by smaller scale actions against insurgents we created ourselves because it turns out bombing the hell out of their parents really pissed them off, and these days (to our credit) we don't really even want to do that anymore. Straight-up invading a neighboring country just because you've already stolen everything of value from your own is boorish, and worth opposing on general principle just to keep the wheels of civilization turning in the right direction. We've seen this crap enough to know an unopposed Russia won't stop there.

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Old 27th January 2022, 09:26 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
That's just stupid.
If Marshall McLuhan were alive today, he'd be saying the stupidity is the message.
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Old 27th January 2022, 09:29 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Quite frankly, the whole "Putin is bad" thing, that is a highly subjective argument, one that depends on your world view.
Very interesting. Can you explain the worldview that makes Putin not bad? Do you subscribe to this worldview?
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Old 27th January 2022, 09:48 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Quite frankly, the whole "Putin is bad" thing, that is a highly subjective argument, one that depends on your world view.
It's a view any normal, sane person will come to if he's not willfully ignorant about it. He's not some unknown leader who just happens to be in an enemy country.
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Old 27th January 2022, 09:50 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
It's a view any normal, sane person will come to if he's not willfully ignorant about it. He's not some unknown leader who just happens to be in an enemy country.
Using nerve agents to kill political opponents is in no way some kind of bad thing. Lots of heroes have all dissidents killed. Look at how Trump praised the chinese for their handling of Tiananmen square.
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Old 27th January 2022, 07:54 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Quite frankly, the whole "Putin is bad" thing, that is a highly subjective argument, one that depends on your world view.

I agree on the rest.
I suppose Putin organizing the the murder and attempted murder of Russian Dissidents abroad is only a bad thing from a point of view. Yes the point of view of a Autocrat who feels he / she has the right to murder political enemies even abroad. This is also International Terrorism. I suppose it is only a bad thing from a point of view if you arrest a political opponent on trumped up charges and jail him via a Kangaroo Court is bad only from a point of view. Whatever.

During Putin's reign at least 21 Journalists have been murdered and two "disappeared", and this doesn't include those arrested, those who have fled the country, those harassed in various ways etc. I call this bad.

During Putin's reign Russia has become at best a sham Democracy, with highly flawed "Democratic" processes. Before it wasn't so hot but it has certainly become much worst. I call this bad.

Putin oversees a system of repression designed to keep him and his cronies in power. I call this bad.

Putin also is at the top of a vast system of corruption which has made him , his family and his cronies very rich. All through using a massive system of kickbacks, payments and bribery etc. And of course the repression etc., is designed to keep the loot flowing into his and his supporters pockets. Not good.

Putin is a typical looting autocrat using his position to loot his country and stay in power. We've seen a lot of them over the last couple of centuries. Putin joins the looting, pillaging ranks of people like Marcos, Mohbatu of Zaire, now Congo, and countless other.

In Russia today, corruption is rampant, the Russian Mafia works with the state and another Autocrat regards the state has his piggy bank to loot. just bad.
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Old 27th January 2022, 08:17 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
To drag things back on topic, I would simply point out that Carlson largely has a good point that it seems odd that Americans are expected to care deeply about this entirely foreign affair. Why exactly is the sovereignty of Ukraine something we should all be so animated about, and why aggressive intervention (up to engaging in direct warfare) the automatic solution?

Putin is bad. Russia is certainly aggressive and a threat to their former Soviet state neighbors. All of this is true. Why is this our problem again?

I have no illusions that Carlson is deeply principled in any way, and I suspect this is just cynical BS to serve some ulterior motive, but it's noteworthy that some perverted strain of anti-interventionism does seem on the rise among the right.

Given our recent track record of extraordinary interventions failing spectacularly, it seems that this stance is one that probably could do with some critical examination.
But it's not an 'entirely foreign affair' as you state. Putin's aggression in Ukraine can affect the balance of power in Europe, and thus the world, and the US. To not recognize this is putting on blinders.
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Old 27th January 2022, 09:06 PM   #48
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Real Americans support Putin (and Putin-endorsed candidates).
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Old 27th January 2022, 09:19 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Warp12
Quite frankly, the whole "Putin is bad" thing, that is a highly subjective argument, one that depends on your world view.
1. Murdering your political opponents wherever in the world they are - Sergei Yushenkov, Yuri Shchekochikhin, Anna Politkovskaya, Alexander Litvinenko, Boris Nemtsov, Natalia Estemirova, Stanislav Markelov, Anastasia Baburova, Boris Berezovsky, Paul Klebnikov

2. Sending over 100 political prisoners to Siberia, without trial, for decades behind bars for their political beliefs.

3. Authorising False Flag attacks in the bombing of apartments in four Russian cities in order to blame Chechen rebels and used them as a pretext to unleash a war on Chechnya.

4. Suppression of opposition parties using trumped up laws limiting free assembly and other civil rights,

5. Jailing protestors and musicians for vague offences such as “hooliganism,”

6. Using the corrupt Russian courts to convict opponents of embezzlement or tax fraud, to straightforward police intimidation, as well as murder. Prominent opponents have been forced into silence or exile.

7. Suppression of minority rights

8. Forceful annexation of foreign territory such as Crimea and Chechnya.

9. Direct support for massacres by Syrian president Bashar Assad,
I suppose if your worldview includes considering any or all of the above as acceptable behaviour, then I guess you wouldn't think Putin wasn't such a bad guy after all... and then maybe this would be more your style....

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Old 27th January 2022, 09:23 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
I suppose Putin organizing the the murder and attempted murder of Russian Dissidents abroad is only a bad thing from a point of view. Yes the point of view of a Autocrat who feels he / she has the right to murder political enemies even abroad. This is also International Terrorism. I suppose it is only a bad thing from a point of view if you arrest a political opponent on trumped up charges and jail him via a Kangaroo Court is bad only from a point of view. Whatever.

During Putin's reign at least 21 Journalists have been murdered and two "disappeared", and this doesn't include those arrested, those who have fled the country, those harassed in various ways etc. I call this bad.

During Putin's reign Russia has become at best a sham Democracy, with highly flawed "Democratic" processes. Before it wasn't so hot but it has certainly become much worst. I call this bad.

Putin oversees a system of repression designed to keep him and his cronies in power. I call this bad.

Putin also is at the top of a vast system of corruption which has made him , his family and his cronies very rich. All through using a massive system of kickbacks, payments and bribery etc. And of course the repression etc., is designed to keep the loot flowing into his and his supporters pockets. Not good.

Putin is a typical looting autocrat using his position to loot his country and stay in power. We've seen a lot of them over the last couple of centuries. Putin joins the looting, pillaging ranks of people like Marcos, Mohbatu of Zaire, now Congo, and countless other.

In Russia today, corruption is rampant, the Russian Mafia works with the state and another Autocrat regards the state has his piggy bank to loot. just bad.

Not hard looking at that, to see why Trump thinks Putin is his kinda guy!
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Old 27th January 2022, 09:35 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
1. Murdering your political opponents wherever in the world they are - Sergei Yushenkov, Yuri Shchekochikhin, Anna Politkovskaya, Alexander Litvinenko, Boris Nemtsov, Natalia Estemirova, Stanislav Markelov, Anastasia Baburova
Boris Berezovsky, Paul Klebnikov

2. Sending over 100 political prisoners to Siberia, without trial, for decades behind bars for their political beliefs.

3. Authorising False Flag attacks in the bombing of apartments in four Russian cities in order to blame Chechen rebels and used them as a pretext to unleash a war on Chechnya.

4. Suppression of opposition parties using trumped up laws limiting free assembly and other civil rights,

5. Jailing protestors and musicians for vague offences such as “hooliganism,”

6. Using the corrupt Russian courts to convict opponents of embezzlement or tax fraud, to straightforward police intimidation, as well as murder. Prominent opponents have been forced into silence or exile.

7. Suppression of minority rights

8. Forceful annexation of foreign territory such as Crimea and Chechnya.

9. Direct support for massacres by Syrian president Bashar Assad,
I suppose if your worldview includes considering any or all of the above as acceptable behaviour, then I guess you wouldn't think Putin wasn't such a bad guy after all... and then maybe this would be more your style....

No doubt, some of these things are true. But, how you view them is a cultural matter.
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Old 27th January 2022, 10:06 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No doubt, some of these things are true. But, how you view them is a cultural matter.
Then why does the GOP "culture" revere the sort of behaviour and tactics that Putin the chief Russian mafioso uses? Why do you think they are open in their admiration and liking for him? Because of his bare-chested horse-riding skills? That he can ice-skate?
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Old 27th January 2022, 11:10 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No doubt, some of these things are true. But, how you view them is a cultural matter.
Only if you are a sociopath.
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Old 28th January 2022, 02:30 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No doubt, some of these things are true. But, how you view them is a cultural matter.
Some cultural views are ****** authoritarian trash not worthy of a civilized society's time. What the adults are debating is the right approach to dealing with an aggressive adversary like that. You don't need to pretend Putin is a good person to have a different approach.
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Old 28th January 2022, 02:46 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
To be fair Obama trusted him also.
And, I see a wierd sort of love for Putin from elements on the Left as well. The "Jacobin" a trendy militant left magazine, is carrying his water big time.
I have to give the SOB credit;He has managed to get support from both the left and the right at the same time. No way a Soviet leader could have done that.
He has support from the left? News to me. He's a gangster running a Mafia state.
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Old 28th January 2022, 02:56 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
He has support from the left? News to me. He's a gangster running a Mafia state.
He even has his own motorcycle gang who do "hard hitting interviews" with people who don't originally agree with Putin's views.
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Old 28th January 2022, 04:16 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
1. Murdering your political opponents wherever in the world they are - Sergei Yushenkov, Yuri Shchekochikhin, Anna Politkovskaya, Alexander Litvinenko, Boris Nemtsov, Natalia Estemirova, Stanislav Markelov, Anastasia Baburova
Boris Berezovsky, Paul Klebnikov

2. Sending over 100 political prisoners to Siberia, without trial, for decades behind bars for their political beliefs.

3. Authorising False Flag attacks in the bombing of apartments in four Russian cities in order to blame Chechen rebels and used them as a pretext to unleash a war on Chechnya.

4. Suppression of opposition parties using trumped up laws limiting free assembly and other civil rights,

5. Jailing protestors and musicians for vague offences such as “hooliganism,”

6. Using the corrupt Russian courts to convict opponents of embezzlement or tax fraud, to straightforward police intimidation, as well as murder. Prominent opponents have been forced into silence or exile.

7. Suppression of minority rights

8. Forceful annexation of foreign territory such as Crimea and Chechnya.

9. Direct support for massacres by Syrian president Bashar Assad,
I suppose if your worldview includes considering any or all of the above as acceptable behaviour, then I guess you wouldn't think Putin wasn't such a bad guy after all... and then maybe this would be more your style....
No doubt, some of these things are true. But, how you view them is a cultural matter.
Which one(s) of those things is not true?

I guess how you view Stalin's atrocities is a cultural matter?

Whatever.
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Old 28th January 2022, 05:20 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No doubt, some of these things are true. But, how you view them is a cultural matter.
How you view them depends of if you have a large monetary investment in Russia.
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Old 28th January 2022, 05:53 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
But it's not an 'entirely foreign affair' as you state. Putin's aggression in Ukraine can affect the balance of power in Europe, and thus the world, and the US. To not recognize this is putting on blinders.
Yes, if you consider the entire globe as America's backyard, I can see how you might feel this way. This is an inherently imperial mindset.

this is pretty obviously in Europe's immediate sphere of influence. They should be taking point on such a thing and I would feel differently if Germany was the one clamoring for extraordinary intervention, as an example. It's difficult because the EU seems pretty content to rely on the vast American military to serve as the international police, so they have little capability to act on their own. This should probably change.
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Old 28th January 2022, 06:07 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
Which one(s) of those things is not true?

I guess how you view Stalin's atrocities is a cultural matter?

Whatever.
provide evidence number 1 is true. Burden of proof with the one making the claim.
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Old 28th January 2022, 06:27 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
provide evidence number 1 is true. Burden of proof with the one making the claim.
Evidence that the murders were done by FSB agents, or that Putin ordered them?

I'd rather find out what you require as evidence before I waste time providing it.
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Old 28th January 2022, 06:31 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Evidence that the murders were done by FSB agents, or that Putin ordered them?

I'd rather find out what you require as evidence before I waste time providing it.
Ordered it.

The obvious piece of evidence would be a copy of the order.
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Old 28th January 2022, 06:32 AM   #63
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I bet some kitchens in Northern Virginia are going to get some very tasteful remodelings out of this whole affair. Champagne lunches at Raytheon this week!
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Old 28th January 2022, 06:38 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No doubt, some of these things are true. But, how you view them is a cultural matter.
It seems like it’d be cool to conservative authoritarians.
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Old 28th January 2022, 06:47 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Ordered it.

The obvious piece of evidence would be a copy of the order.
We can not assume that the current President, former Head of the KGB/FSB is responsible for killings done by his state agency?
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Old 28th January 2022, 06:55 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
We can not assume that the current President, former Head of the KGB/FSB is responsible for killings done by his state agency?
A) Responsibility is not a statement of fact, but a Statement of values (in some systems, even ordering doesn't make the person responsible).

B) People can assume whatever they want. But the burden of proof is still on the person making the claim.
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Old 28th January 2022, 07:05 AM   #67
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It would be nice if this country didn't cede this entire issue to a fascist like Carlson.

Quote:
Top Weapons Companies Boast Ukraine-Russia Tensions Are a Boon for Business
In calls with investors, Raytheon and Lockheed Martin boasted that the worsening conflict is helping profits.

As the United States weighs more involvement in the growing conflict between Ukraine and Russia, some of the largest weapons companies in the world — Raytheon and Lockheed Martin — are openly telling their investors that tensions between the countries are good for business. And General Dynamics, meanwhile, is boasting about the past returns the company has seen as a result of such disputes.

The statements come as the U.S. government escalates arms shipments to Ukraine, among them the Javelin missiles that are a joint venture between Raytheon and Lockheed Martin. House Democrats, meanwhile, are trying to quickly push through a bill that would significantly increase U.S. military assistance to Ukraine, and impose new sanctions on Russia.
https://inthesetimes.com/article/ukr...apons-industry

The entire NATSEC machine has been in a cozy relationship with arms manufacturers, who obviously stand to make a lot of money during a conflict, for decades now. It would be really swell if the only pundit of prominence suggesting caution to foreign entanglements wasn't a ghoul like Carlson.

Anti-imperialism is a position that has some popularity among the public. It would be nice if we didn't just hand this issue entirely to the fascist right.
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Old 28th January 2022, 07:48 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
No doubt, some of these things are true. But, how you view them is a cultural matter.
Yes--a cultural matter that is very instructional as to what the values of that culture are.
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Old 28th January 2022, 08:39 AM   #69
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Old 28th January 2022, 09:06 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, if you consider the entire globe as America's backyard, I can see how you might feel this way. This is an inherently imperial mindset.

this is pretty obviously in Europe's immediate sphere of influence. They should be taking point on such a thing and I would feel differently if Germany was the one clamoring for extraordinary intervention, as an example. It's difficult because the EU seems pretty content to rely on the vast American military to serve as the international police, so they have little capability to act on their own. This should probably change.
Your isolationist views here would have some validity were the US not a NATO member. As long as she is a member, NATO Europe's problems are America's problems.
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Old 28th January 2022, 09:09 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It would be nice if this country didn't cede this entire issue to a fascist like Carlson.



https://inthesetimes.com/article/ukr...apons-industry

The entire NATSEC machine has been in a cozy relationship with arms manufacturers, who obviously stand to make a lot of money during a conflict, for decades now. It would be really swell if the only pundit of prominence suggesting caution to foreign entanglements wasn't a ghoul like Carlson.

Anti-imperialism is a position that has some popularity among the public. It would be nice if we didn't just hand this issue entirely to the fascist right.
Do you object to the US having been the Arsenal of Democracy during WW2?
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Old 28th January 2022, 09:13 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Ordered it.

The obvious piece of evidence would be a copy of the order.
Just submit a Freedom of Information Act request and the Russian government will send you all documents related to their campaign to murder exiled dissidents on foreign territory. If they don't send you any documents, it means there aren't any because there isn't any such program. That's how skepticism works, right?

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Old 28th January 2022, 09:15 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Do you object to the US having been the Arsenal of Democracy during WW2?
I'm just pointing out that having a massive, privatized military supply and arms industry results in extremely perverse incentives. The revolving door between the natsec world and military contractors is not even concealed.

It used to be commonly understood that war profiteers were vile people. Now that model of business is an accepted part of our society.

I have no objection to the US arming our allies against aggressive action when its in our interests, though the arms and military supply industry ought to be nationalized.
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Old 28th January 2022, 09:30 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by digger View Post
Just submit a Freedom of Information Act request and the Russian government will send you all documents related to their campaign to murder exiled dissidents on foreign territory. If they don't send you any documents, it means there aren't any because there isn't any such program. That's how skepticism works, right?
The burden of proof isn't lowered if the evidence is difficult to maintain.
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Old 28th January 2022, 08:41 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, if you consider the entire globe as America's backyard, I can see how you might feel this way. This is an inherently imperial mindset.
BREAKING NEWS: The Big Oceans No Longer Act to Secure America's Safety.
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Quote:
this is pretty obviously in Europe's immediate sphere of influence. They should be taking point on such a thing and I would feel differently if Germany was the one clamoring for extraordinary intervention, as an example. It's difficult because the EU seems pretty content to rely on the vast American military to serve as the international police, so they have little capability to act on their own. This should probably change.
Maybe, just maybe, they're small military as something to do with it.
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Old 29th January 2022, 02:32 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by digger View Post
Just submit a Freedom of Information Act request and the Russian government will send you all documents related to their campaign to murder exiled dissidents on foreign territory. If they don't send you any documents, it means there aren't any because there isn't any such program. are a couple of FSB agents on the way to your address to either have a nice little chat, or to introduce you to Mr. Novichok.
FTFY
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Old 29th January 2022, 03:18 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
Tucker Carlson is to history as Swanson TV dinners are to a Michelin stared restaurant.

Is that just a gastronomic reference, or are you referring to the fact that Carlson's family wealth was derived originally from Swanson TV dinners?
Quote:
Patricia Swanson, who married Tucker Carlson's father when Tucker was 10 years old, is an heiress to the wealth generated by the Swanson TV dinner company her grandfather Carl Swanson founded. But the family sold Swanson-branded food products to Campbell's in 1955.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tu...-owns-swanson/
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Old 29th January 2022, 08:07 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Is that just a gastronomic reference, or are you referring to the fact that Carlson's family wealth was derived originally from Swanson TV dinners?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tu...-owns-swanson/
It is a general purpose dig on Carlson based on his spoiled rich kid reactionary politics. So yes, his family money is part of that.

I do have a curiosity about how spoiled brats like Carlson get into political extremes. It often plays out the other way where the spoiled rich kid decides that communism is the ideal solution to the world's problems. I suspect that the political extremism that develops this way is the result of some sort of desensitization caused by being isolated from the general public. They need the extremism just to feel something. That the extremes are either left of right wing in nature is irrelevant to why they become mouth pieces for things outside their first hand experience.

I also doubt Carlson ever ate much of his family product.

That said, everything I just wrote here is speculation.
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Old 29th January 2022, 12:29 PM   #79
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My guess is that politicians want Rich Brats to donate money to them, not to become politicians themselves.
So they have to become pundits.
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Old 29th January 2022, 01:34 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm just pointing out that having a massive, privatized military supply and arms industry results in extremely perverse incentives. The revolving door between the natsec world and military contractors is not even concealed.

It used to be commonly understood that war profiteers were vile people. Now that model of business is an accepted part of our society.

I have no objection to the US arming our allies against aggressive action when its in our interests, though the arms and military supply industry ought to be nationalized.
Like Germany in the 1930s. That turned out well.
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