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Tags crickets , Cuba conspiracies , Cuba incidents , havana syndrome , mass hysteria , microwave weapons , sonic weapons , US-Cuba relations

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Old 20th January 2022, 09:26 AM   #1201
dann
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Havana syndrome: Most cases not caused by foreign power - CIA (BBC News, Jan 20, 2022)
CIA report says ‘Havana Syndrome’ not a foreign power campaign (South China Morning Post, Jan 22, 2022)
CIA report: no evidence linking Havana Syndrome to a foreign country (NPR, Jan 20, 2022)

Quote:
The new CIA-prepared interim finding assesses that the vast majority of reported cases can be explained by medical, environmental or technical factors — including previously undiagnosed illnesses — and that it is “unlikely” that a malicious state actor is inflicting purposeful harm on U.S. diplomats on a far-reaching, worldwide scale. The broader intelligence community has varying levels of confidence in that assessment.
“There’s no one explanation” for the large number of reported cases around the world, a senior CIA official said, insisting “we don’t see a global campaign by a foreign actor.” There are still unresolved cases, the official continued, and the CIA is still open to the notion that a nation-state or specific device is causing symptoms such as headaches and nausea — if the agency finds evidence to that effect.
U.S. foe or specific weapon not behind sustained, global campaign causing 'Havana Syndrome, CIA finds (Politico, Jan 19, 2022)

Quote:
Mark Zaid, a Washington lawyer representing intelligence officers who have reported cases, asserted that the CIA is having a “revolt within its workforce” among people who do not want to take overseas assignments for fear of being attacked.
Of the findings, Zaid tweeted, “Too bad this is contradicted by classified information that CIA won’t release.” Zaid did not immediately respond to a message seeking further comment.
CIA: Most ‘Havana syndrome’ cases not linked to US adversary (Federal News Network, Jan 22, 2022)

Video: Ryan Grim and Robby Soave react to breaking news on the CIA's assessment of the cause of Havana Syndrome.
Quote:
Authorities lie all the time. But conspiracy theorists reach too far, a lot of the time. (...) In this case, it was actually the authorities who were the conspiracy theorists.
The Hill: BREAKING: CIA says Havana Syndrome NOT a result of "a sustained worldwide campaign" by hostile power (Yahoo News, Jan 20, 2022 - 9:06 min.)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th January 2022, 09:31 AM   #1202
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RIP commie headache gun.
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Old 20th January 2022, 10:38 AM   #1203
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
At last, the final proof!

If the CIA says it, it's not true, so there clearly is a Havana Syndrome.
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Old 20th January 2022, 04:08 PM   #1204
dann
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CIA Backtracks on Havana Syndrome after Director Issued Warning to Russian Spies (Newsweek, Jan 20, 2022)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st January 2022, 01:29 AM   #1205
dann
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To some of us, it doesn't come as a surprise at all, but yesterday we were told that ...
Quote:
In a new intelligence assessment, the CIA has ruled out that the mysterious symptoms known as Havana Syndrome are the result of a sustained global campaign by a hostile power aimed at hundreds of U.S. diplomats and spies, six people briefed on the matter told NBC News.
CIA says 'Havana Syndrome' not result of sustained campaign by hostile power (NBC News, Jan 20, 2022)
Quote:
The spy agency has assessed it's "unlikely that a foreign actor, including Russia, is conducting a sustained, worldwide campaign harming U.S. personnel with a weapon or mechanism," they added.
(...)
Since then (Havana, 2016-17), scores of cases have been reported on nearly every continent in over a dozen countries, especially after the CIA and State Department urged employees to come forward if they experienced symptoms
CIA says foreign actor may be behind some Havana syndrome cases (ABC News, Jan 21, 2022)
Quote:
U.S. officials — especially those overseas — who experienced the sudden onset of heat, pressure or a painful sound in the ears, were instructed to move away from their immediate area and report their symptoms immediately to newly established health offices and hotlines. That encouragement of reporting resulted in a slew of newly reported cases
If ‘Havana syndrome’ isn’t a global, coordinated attack as CIA now says, then what is it? (Miami Herald, Jan 20, 2022)

And one CIA operative (?), a victim of the alleged syndrome, "who asked that his name not be used because of his work for the agency," went as far as to say that ...
Quote:
... the government had erred by pushing for more people to report ill health or unexplained symptoms. That brought in thousands of extraneous cases, the victim said, making it harder for the agency’s analysts to focus on the real cases.
Most ‘Havana Syndrome’ Cases Unlikely Caused by Foreign Power, C.I.A. Says (NYT, Jan 20, 2022)

Until a week ago, we were told about the retaliation that would follow as soon as the culprit was found, which begs the question: Now that we know exactly who spread the 'syndrome' to U.S. government employees all over the world - we know many of those responsible by name! - how will they be punished? It doesn't seem fair that they will go unpunished just because they happen to be Americans instead of a foreign "hostile power", does it?!

What about the people in charge of sacking Pamela Spratlen and the head of the CIA office in Vienna?
And what about the people who misinformed lawmakers like Susan Collins, Jeanne Shaheen and Marco Rubio?
Quote:
Officials from across the government have told lawmakers repeatedly in classified briefings over the past year that U.S. investigators believe the incidents, especially those that have caused traumatic brain injuries, are the result of directed-energy attacks, most likely at the hands of a hostile foreign government such as Russia.
(...)
Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine), an Intelligence Committee member who has met with Havana Syndrome victims, said she was “surprised at many of the findings, which seemed to contradict other testimony that we have had." She added that she's "reassured that the CIA is committed to taking care of people" who have suffered medical problems.
(...)
Sen. Jeanne Shaheen (D-N.H.), who has personally assisted victims through her office, continued to refer to the incidents as “suspected directed-energy attacks” in a statement, and said she was “undeterred” in her efforts to assist victims.
(...)
“It’s important to note that the CIA’s current assessment on what and who may be behind [anomalous health incidents] that have affected U.S. intelligence and diplomatic personnel reflects only the interim work of the CIA task force,” Senate Intelligence Committee Vice Chair Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) said.
Lawmakers skewer interim CIA report on Havana Syndrome (Politico, Jan 2022)

Quote:
Asked whether he would raise the issue with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov when they meet Friday, Blinken declined to comment Thursday.
CIA says foreign actor may be behind some Havana syndrome cases (ABC News, Jan 21, 2022)

Is an apology to the foreign hostile power in place?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st January 2022, 06:11 AM   #1206
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Quote:
Collins said Thursday she was “surprised by many of the CIA’s findings” after meeting with afflicted public servants, saying it was “difficult to reconcile the findings of the expert task force at the CIA with other evidence and testimony.” But she said the CIA has been attentive to the issue and the new law will improve care for victims regardless of the reasons for their illness.
Susan Collins ‘surprised’ by CIA ruling out US foes in ‘Havana Syndrome’ cases (Bangor Daily News, Jan 21, 2022)

Yes, Susan Collins, that's called cognitive dissonance, and the solution isn't to try to reconcile two contradictory, mutually exclusive ideas. The solution is to understand that people can both be ill and misunderstand the cause of their illness, i.e.that illness does not equate Russians with ray guns!
It is not nearly as difficult to grasp as you make it out to be!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st January 2022, 07:23 AM   #1207
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Quote:
Victims who have come forward reporting symptoms of ‘Havana Syndrome’ are devastated after the CIA reported that the syndrome is not the result of a sustained campaign by hostile power. The group Advocacy for Victims of Havana Syndrome said, “This cannot and must not be the last word on this matter, because it is neither definitive, nor comprehensive.”
‘Havana Syndrome’ victims devastated after CIA report on illness (NBC News, Jan 20, 2022)
Includes an interview with Josh Lederman (4:36 min).

Quote:
Havana Syndrome cases have plausible explanations.
CIA finds many Havana Syndrome cases have plausible explanations (CNBC Television on Youtube, Jan 21, 2022)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Also with Josh Lederman.

Quote:
A CIA investigation has not found evidence that a foreign country was responsible for mysterious ailments suffered by hundreds of U.S. diplomats and intelligence officials in multiple countries in recent years.
CIA report: No evidence linking Havana Syndrome to a foreign country (Euro News on YouTube, Jan 20, 2022)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Quote:
The CIA has finally admitted that there is no evidence of nefarious foreign powers behind the mysterious "Havana Syndrome" that injured US diplomats and their staff and perplexed scientists who continue their search for its cause. CIA whistleblower John Kiriakou weighs in. He suggests that exposure to black mold or sensitivity to cell phone radiation could play a role in the condition.
CIA admits 'Havana Syndrome' unlikely caused by anti-American villains (RT on YouTube, Jan 21, 2022)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Unfortunately, John Kiriakou tries to replace one version of mass psychogenic illness, the 'Havana Syndrome', with two others, EHS (e.g. 5G) and sick building syndrome (black mold).
It is not unlikely that the CIA itself may be trying to do the same thing. Remember what Politico wrote: "The new CIA-prepared interim finding assesses that the vast majority of reported cases can be explained by medical, environmental or technical factors."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st January 2022, 11:26 AM   #1208
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
How about that. It's almost like letting the relevant organization take notice of a supposed problem and conduct an actual thorough investigation instead of just laughing it off and ignoring the complaints of its employees isn't really the death of rationality or headlong dive into pseudoscience that some were bent on framing it as.
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Old 21st January 2022, 09:40 PM   #1209
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Is an apology to the foreign hostile power in place?

That's about as unlikely as directed energy weapons themselves.
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Old 22nd January 2022, 01:26 AM   #1210
dann
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
How about that. It's almost like letting the relevant organization take notice of a supposed problem and conduct an actual thorough investigation instead of just laughing it off and ignoring the complaints of its employees isn't really the death of rationality or headlong dive into pseudoscience that some were bent on framing it as.

Your belief in 'relevant U.S. American institutions' is amazing, Checkmite! Several relevant organizations already conducted thorough investigations and dismissed the lunatic idea that spies and diplomats were attacked by first sonic weapons and later directed microwave energy weapons, but their reports were kept secret and laughed off by the CIA when leaked.
You yourself believed the first reports about attacks by a hostile enemy in Havana - until independent researchers revealed that the recordings were of lovelorn crickets. Later on, your belief was revived by the NAS report because it was conducted by what you claimed were the upper echelons of U.S. American science - and yet the researchers were denied access to CIA data about the 'syndrome' sufferers that could have contributed to revealing the truth about the 'Havana Syndrome'.

And now you are singing the praise of the organization that did nothing but obstruct the thorough investigations by relevant organizations - for whatever reason: prestige, i.e. vanity? power?

You are praising the organization that promulgated the big lie of the 'Havana Syndrome' until it grew out of all proportions and freaked out the whole corps of diplomatic employees (and apparently spies as well) to the extent where they became frightened of being deployed in the rest of the world. Or in other words: until the big lie blew up in their faces and the only way to keep it alive would have been to wage an actual war against the imaginary perpetrator, Russia!

And even at this point, the big lie, albeit considerably smaller now, that the 'Havana Syndrome' at its place of origin may still, somehow, have constituted an attack, something, which you of all people should know is utterly absurd since you participated in this thread when we found out that the 'sonic attacks' were nothing but lovelorn crickets, this lie still cannot be allowed to die!

I am happy to see you come around, again, Checkmite, but you seem to have learned nothing worthwhile from the whole 5-year-long story. It is obvious the reason why you feel the need to claim that those of us who very early on reached the conclusion that the 'Havana Syndrome' was a case of mass psychogenic illness were "just laughing it off and ignoring the complaints of its employees" - unlike you, I suppose, who is then the noble hero taking the complaints of diplomats and (as we later found out) CIA spies seriously instead of dismissing them. (Many of those complaints are laughable, by the way, and should be laughed off. Laughing off the only rational explanation, mass psychogenic illness, doesn't seem to offend you at all!)

But the paranoia of those CIA spies was the thing that set the whole thing in motion in the first place, aided and abetted by an administration that was more than willing to believe in lies about Cuba because they served to justify the dismantling of the U.S.-Cuban diplomatic relations that had been established by the governments of Obama and Raúl Castro. And the current administration's interest in continuing Trump's (and little Marco's) hostility towards Cuba, in spite of the promises made by Biden before he was elected, is probably the major reason why the delusion of the 'Havana Syndrome' cannot simply be abandoned once and for all. (Another reason is the vanity of institutions and researchers who have invested their prestige in reports about alleged attack-induced brain damages. I don't doubt that some of those were busy trying to persuade the Senate committee of their ideas until the very end - to the extent where the prestige of those committee members now depends on keeping the lie alive!)

The USA and its institutions are founded on lies and don't seem to be able to survive without them.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd January 2022, 04:33 AM   #1211
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In her book, The Sleeping Beauties and Other Stories of Mystery Illness, Suzanne O'Sullivan investigates several cases of mass psychogenic illness all over the world. She stresses the importance of looking at the whole context that gives rise to an MPI and turns it into a kind of solution to a problem, albeit a very dysfunctional solution, which may give rise to new stories about the cause of this 'solution'.
In Denmark, for instance, the HPV scare of 2015 seemed to disproportionally affect girls who were very ambitious athletes.
O'Sullivan describes a HPV scare in Colombia where the origin story is somewhat different.:
Quote:
'Do the seizures have a pattern?' I asked.
She thought for a while before saying, 'They happen when I think too much.'
So many of the girls associated their symptoms with anxious thoughts, but they then overlooked the importance of that and searched for alternative explanations. (p. 172)
The favored alternative explanation being the HPV vaccines, which made it possible for them to blame something other than what actually gave rise to their "anxious thoughts".

In Denmark, I got the impression that the story about the HPV vaccinations provided many of the girls with an excuse for not being able to live up to their own (and maybe their families') ambitions: They didn't just quit or give up. They were forced to give up because something, the vaccines, made them too sick to continue. The story of the vaccinations gave them an out, but not in any calculated way, as a subterfuge. They did have the symptoms.

An important part of the context is the story, sometimes including myths and superstitions, depending on the culture of the setting where a case of mass psychogenic illness occurs.
Robert Bartholomew describes the background story of the 'Havana Syndrome' like this:

Quote:
To an outside observer, the notion that intelligence officers were being targeted with a device that used sound waves to make them sick, may appear far-fetched. However, it seemed plausible in the historical context of U.S.-Cuban relations. Prior to the new embassy opening under the Obama administration in 2015, there had been a long and well-documented history of Cuban agents harassing American diplomats in Havana during the Cold War. Embassy workers would wake up in their homes only to find furniture and bookshelves rearranged, animal faeces and urine on their floor, and cigarette butts on their kitchen table, even though they didn’t smoke or have a pet. The Cubans were known to deflate tires, shine lights into diplomats’ homes, and suddenly cut their water or electricity supply.
Havana Syndrome Hysteria and the Great Wild Goose Chase (Skeptic, Oct 9, 2021)

One thing is the story, quite another thing is what may or may not actually have happened. As skeptics, we are familiar with very similar stories about haunted houses where things mysteriously aren't where people remember leaving them, and we know that those stories are very likely due to false interpretations of what actually happened, much like when the eyeglasses or the screwdriver is no longer where we remember putting it. In a 'spooky' house, occurrences like this are interpreted as the deed of poltergeists, whereas in Havana they were interpreted as the sinister deeds of Cuban security agents, as were deflated tires, shining lights and the cutting of water or electricity.

Having spent close to one year combined in Cuba, I know from personal experience that you cannot rely on water or electricity not being cut now and then. It can be very annoying when it happens, but it never made me have other than the immediate concerns about being able to use the bathroom. But I also had no reason to suspect that those things happened because the Dirección de Inteligencia was out to get me, which would have been very surprising since I didn't think that I gave them any reason for harassing me. If I had rented a car or a motorcycle in Cuba, which I've never done, and its tires had been deflated, I also wouldn't suspect the Cuban state intelligence agency to be the culprit, but it is obvious why American CIA operatives do so.

As for the "animal faeces and urine", I wonder what would be the point of something like that: Why would Cuban state operatives do something so childish and pointless? In the stories that CIA operatives told each other, the purpose would have been mere harassment, a story that I would never have come up with. (And the one time I found a frog in the kitchen of a 3rd-floor apartment, there was a much more logical explanation: Cuban tree frog. It is amazing to see it climb a bathroom wall! By the way, as mentioned in the article, this may also occasionally be the cause of power cuts! )

Unlike 1961, the CIA lies about the 'Havana Syndrome' stopped short of causing an actual war this time. I am glad that it didn't, but it doesn't make me admire the CIA and its "thorough investigation".
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd January 2022, 06:25 PM   #1212
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Your belief in 'relevant U.S. American institutions' is amazing, Checkmite! Several relevant organizations already conducted thorough investigations and dismissed the lunatic idea that spies and diplomats were attacked by first sonic weapons and later directed microwave energy weapons, but their reports were kept secret and laughed off by the CIA when leaked.
lol, no they weren't. The CIA didn't laugh at anything, and none of the reports were "kept secret". Major news organizations were discussing said reports when they were released, publicly. The CIA and State Department investigators chose not to comment until their own investigation was complete.

Which, it now is. Surprise (maybe to you, but not to me), they've come to a conclusion that is consistent with the consensus of the other bodies who have explored the problem, and as a bonus even with several individuals who didn't explore the problem at all but gave an opinion anyway. The investigation took a little longer than the others; but it is now clear that wasn't a sign of spinning, irrational thinking, or indulging in pseudoscience, but likely just a natural result of a government agency that is required to meticulously document everything in triplicate.
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Old 23rd January 2022, 01:23 AM   #1213
dann
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Checkmite is simply making things up at this point:

1) The CIA dismissed anything that didn't support the idea that its operatives were being attacked.
2) An FBI report and the JASON report were kept secret. The latter only "obtained by Buzzfeed News via a Freedom of Information Act request" three years later.
3) The CIA and State Department investigations didn't begin till last year during the Biden administration.
4) The CIA investigation is not complete. I don't know what it is about the word interim that Checkmite does not understand.
5) If the CIA investigation had started when the others did, it would have taken much longer, not just a little longer, than the others. Some of those finished in 2018.
6) The investigations could have stopped with the JASON report, which wasn't released for a reason: It didn't support the CIA fairy tales about its agents being attacked.
7) This irrational thinking was what made the State Department, the CIA and the Pentagon warn its millions of employees about being attacked and encouraging them to come forward with their symptoms, which made hundreds of them believe that they themselves were attack victims. No wonder that they now feel let down by their employers, who exposed them to MPI on a gigantic scale.
8) In other words, nothing but "spinning, irrational thinking, or indulging in pseudoscience." And it hasn't even stopped with the interim CIA report. The idea that some of those cases may have been attacked, in particular the ones in Havana that started the whole spectacle, is being kept alive ... for ... reasons ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 23rd January 2022 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 23rd January 2022, 10:03 AM   #1214
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Mark Zaid, the lawyer of many of the 'syndrome' sufferers, on Twitter, Jan 20, 2022:

Quote:
This interim report is largely bc CIA is having revolt within its workforce as officers don't want to go overseas.
Quote:
CIA interim report is disinformation. Other agencies furious no coordination occurred & they disagree. This still shows how individual agencies disregarding uniform approach & not including proper experts. Why?
We already filed lawful whistleblower complaint challenging CIA.
https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1484017864030011395

He is probably not even entirely wrong about the reason why the CIA doesn't want the farce to continue: Keeping the lie alive has repercussions for people employed by the State Department and the CIA.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd January 2022, 11:55 AM   #1215
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Quote:
While many pundits have argued that Havana syndrome is psychosomatic, the Biden Administration and Congress have taken the reports very seriously — so much so that President Joe Biden signed a bill compensating Havana syndrome victims last fall.
But the findings from the CIA’s interim study into Havana syndrome have now cast significant doubt on the government’s prior stance on the strange disorder — and raises many more questions than answers.
Fortunately, it also led to some excellent memes for us to enjoy.
Here’s the crème de la crème.
Twitter Roasts FEDs After CIA Admits Havana Syndrome Is Fake After Al (Futurism, Jan 20, 2022)

I like this one!
Quote:
What if the real Havana syndrome was the warmongering mass delusion we suffered along the way
@TheDCSentinel on Twitter (Jan 20, 2022)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th January 2022, 12:29 AM   #1216
dann
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A short, almost laconic, article in Granma about the CIA 'revelations':

La verdad no merece oídos sordos (Granma.cu, Jan 23, 2022)
The truth does not deserve to fall on deaf ears

I guess the title is a pun on the damaged hearing mentioned in some of the first cases. The illustration also makes it seem so.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th January 2022, 01:02 AM   #1217
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I like this one!
But to be fair, it's not "fake" in the sense that these people would intentionally be duplicitious - even psychosomatic symptoms are real and people have genuinely suffered, so why not give some compensation? And actually this has been a very fascinating phenomenon: a modern and well documented case of mass delusion by very intelligent and well educated people. Quite remarkable.
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Old 24th January 2022, 02:49 AM   #1218
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I agree with you that MPI is real and "that these people," i.e. the MPI sufferers, "would (not) intentionally be duplicitious." But I also don't think that's the point of the tweet. I don't think that "we" in the tweet means the (relatively few) 'syndrome' sufferers. I think "we" means the millions of people who were convinced by the propaganda lie that a hostile power had used directed microwave energy weapons to harm innocent U.S. American diplomats:
"What if the real Havana syndrome was the warmongering mass delusion we suffered along the way"
The mass delusion, not the mass psychogenic illness ...

And some of the people suffering from that delusion were (and still are) eager to believe it:
Quote:
Senators on both sides of the aisle are now confused by the CIA’s conclusions and have voiced concerns that the spy agency's preemptive release of its own conclusions is an attempt to offer an alternative to a separate intelligence community report expected later this month. “Everything we’ve been told up to now is different. All of a sudden we come up with a different conclusion?” Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chair Bob Menendez, a New Jersey Democrat, told Politico this week.“ If you have an inconclusive determination, which isn’t a determination, why do you feel compelled to issue an interim report that is inconclusive?”
Sen. Susan Collins, a Republican Senator from Maine who serves on the Senate Intelligence Committee member and who has personally met with individuals reporting Havana Syndrome symptoms, says she is “surprised at many of the findings, which seemed to contradict other testimony that we have had.”
CIA's Havana Syndrome Report Doesn't Sit Well With Some Lawmakers (The Drive, Jan 21, 2022)

It would be very nice to hear more about the "other testimony that we have had" and about “everything we’ve been told up to now," wouldn't it?
Who exactly presented the Senate committees with testimony leading to different conclusions? What exactly were those senators told?


ETA: And I disagree with you about this: "a modern and well documented case of mass delusion by very intelligent and well educated people."
They may be educated, but not well educated. And many of them may be intelligence operatives, but the ones we've seen on TV playing recordings of crickets don't seem intelligent at all.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 24th January 2022, 05:12 AM   #1219
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Short interview with Natalie Shure, The New Republic:

Quote:
MARTIN: You know, it was interesting to me that you said at one point in your reporting on this that - you said that those in the national security space, you know, a lot of reporters - some reporters, certainly officials who are - have people who work in foreign policy and national security as their constituents, for example, embraced the Havana syndrome theory but that a lot of health and science reporters and analysts and researchers really did not. And I was just wondering about that. Could you talk a little bit about why you think that might be?

SHURE: Yeah. I think it is a red flag and something that stood out to me that this story was being almost exclusively pushed by national security reporters and not by people who report on health topics. And, you know, speaking to people who do health reporting or, you know, what little titters you saw online, I think that there was a lot more skepticism. There were some questions of, hey, wait a minute; why would you think that migraines point to a microwave attack? It just doesn't add up. And I think that there are a few reasons for that. I think that some people really got swept away in the excitement of the story and that it led them to, you know, drop skepticism that they really should have had about this.
The danger of pushing the foreign attack theory for 'Havana Syndrome' (NPR, Jan 23, 2022)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th January 2022, 05:51 AM   #1220
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An example of people who "really got swept away in the excitement of the story" would be the editorial board of Washington Post. In fact, they have dropped the "skepticism that they really should have had about this" to the extent where they just can't let go of their fantasy of weapons and perpetrators.

This is so incredibly dumb that it's almost unbelievable:

Quote:
The perpetrator has never been identified.
(...)
Much speculation has focused in recent years on Russia, which has denied responsibility. Now a senior CIA official has announced, “We have assessed that it is unlikely that a foreign actor, including Russia, is conducting a sustained, worldwide campaign harming U.S. personnel with a weapon or mechanism.” This statement does not exclude the possibility that lesser actors — perhaps subcontracted — are responsible for the attacks, nor does it rule out that multiple sources are to blame. That might explain the diverse locations where the victims report being hit, although if such a large group of attackers was afoot, it might also increase the chances the culprits would be caught.
(...)
The administration must show all those considering a post abroad that the United States will have their back, no matter what. At the same time, there is a smaller group of victims with injuries that may help point the way to a cause and perpetrators, and there is every reason to focus on them for forensic clues. This troubling challenge is not yet resolved.
The Post's View: The ‘Havana syndrome’ is still a mystery. It is too soon to stop investigating. (WP, Jan 23, 2022)

The story about evil adversaries responsible for the 'Havana Syndrome' is just too titilating to let it die! WP's editorial board don't seem to consider that the CIA official's announcement also does not rule out that the 'syndrome' may be caused by something other than "a weapon or mechanism." For instance by paranoid stories about U.S. diplomats and agents being attacked by sinister, elusive perpetrators with sci-fi weapons or mechanisms. These stories constitute the weapon of mass psychogenic illness.

This 'troubling challenge' has actually been resolved, WP editorial board. The perpetrator has been found! It was you the whole time!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th January 2022, 03:27 PM   #1221
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Robert Bartholomew about the CIA interim report:

Quote:
KEY POINTS
New report links anxiety, mass suggestion and normal medical conditions to 'Havana Syndrome.'
Five years on and there is still no evidence that a foreign power has been attacking U.S. officials with a microwave weapon
Victims of mass psychogenic illness are experiencing real symptoms. It is not just "all in their heads."
(...)
While the CIA said it is continuing to investigate about two dozen cases that are unexplained, that should not be taken to suggest that there is some sinister plot against American diplomats and intelligence officers. A relevant parallel is UFO reports. A recent US Government report on UFOs found that many cases were unexplained, but that did not necessarily mean that they were of extraterrestrial origin. For instance, many cases lack sufficient information on which to base an assessment. The same is true of ‘Havana Syndrome.’
CIA Skeptical of ‘Havana Syndrome’ - Report casts doubt on mysterious ‘microwave attacks.’ (Psychology Today, Jan 20, 2022)

Like I said in post 1198:
Originally Posted by dann View Post
“We assess it is unlikely that a foreign actor, including Russia, is conducting a sustained, worldwide campaign harming U.S. personnel with a weapon or mechanism,” said a senior CIA official, speaking on the condition of anonymity under ground rules set by the agency.
That leaves open the possibility that a foreign power could be responsible for cases that cannot be attributed to medical conditions or other factors, the official said.
CIA finds no ‘worldwide campaign’ by any foreign power behind mysterious Havana syndrome (Washington Post, Jan 20, 2022)

Yes, that does leave open that possibility - much the same way that unexplained aerial phenomena leave open the possibility that UFOs are flying saucers from Tralfamadore.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th January 2022, 08:48 PM   #1222
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The news has not made it across the border into Canada yet.

‘Havana Syndrome’: Canada cautions diplomats about mysterious illness symptoms

https://globalnews.ca/news/8532388/h...ada-diplomats/

Quote:
Canada’s foreign ministry has advised staff serving around the world to watch for mysterious illness symptoms following unexplained health incidents among diplomats in Cuba and U.S. personnel in various countries.
Though, admittedly the report is from October, and

Quote:
Pamela Isfeld, president of the Professional Association of Foreign Service Officers, said she hopes there will be a resolution to the puzzling episode.
“I share the frustration of everybody _ there just doesn’t seem to be a conclusion anywhere close in this investigation.”
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Old 25th January 2022, 12:48 AM   #1223
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Calling it "the puzzling episode" instead of "anomalous health incident" ('but really, Russia and its invisible attackers are behind this, we just can't prove it yet') seems to make a difference. Helping American Victims Afflicted by Neurological Attacks was a much better way of ensuring that there would be a steady stream of sick spies and diplomats.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th January 2022, 12:57 AM   #1224
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
A short, almost laconic, article in Granma about the CIA 'revelations':
La verdad no merece oídos sordos (Granma.cu, Jan 23, 2022)

Granma has now published an English translation:The truth should not fall on deaf ears (Granma.cu, Jan 24, 2022)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th January 2022, 12:59 AM   #1225
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
That's about as unlikely as directed energy weapons themselves.

A foreign policy based on lies has never been cause for shame.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th January 2022, 01:21 AM   #1226
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Some people are doing their utmost to ignore that the lie has now been exposed for what it is:

Quote:
Secretary Blinken met with afflicted employees and declared, “those suffering must be believed…” and said at a press conference this week, “There is no doubt in my mind that people have been directly and powerfully affected…” There is now also a formal government taskforce addressing the problem; and Johns Hopkins has been tasked with a further study. At least the skepticism is gone and those afflicted are no longer under a cloud for “mass psychosis.”

Unfortunately, as Blinken himself admitted, there are still no clear answers as to “why” but most especially “who.” While Blinken also noted that the issue has been discussed directly with the Russians, the US is not ready to point any fingers. Personally, I’m fully understanding of diplomatic decorum and what can be said, when. But for me – while I wouldn’t bet the ranch – history suggests a strong culprit.
Nagy: The mysterious 'Havana Syndrome' -- made in Russia? (Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, Jan 23, 2022)

It is not as if the lie didn't just blow up in their faces, is it? One can still dream that the reason why Blinken didn't say, "Russia did it! Putin is the culprit!" is one of "diplomatic decorum". Blinken meant to say it. History suggests so ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th January 2022, 09:31 PM   #1227
Orphia Nay
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I love this thread. It's fascinating, and I'd say it's the best resource in the world for this topic. Thanks, dann.
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Old 25th January 2022, 11:55 PM   #1228
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China about the most recent development of the story about the 'Havana Syndrome':

Quote:
Regarding the report of the CIA, Mitchel Valdés-Sosa, director of the Cuban Center for Neuroscience, said in an interview with Xinhua News Agency in Havana on Friday that "the result was exactly what we expected. The whole story is too fantastic."
Cuban scientist says whole story about Havana Syndrome "too fantastic" (GLOBALink on YouTube, Jan 23, 2022)
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Quote:
The latest CIA finding, which ruled out "the role of a foreign power" in most cases, overturned a finding more than a year ago by a team from the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine, which was "commissioned" by the U.S. government to investigate the matter.
The team had linked the syndrome, reportedly experienced by U.S. diplomats in Cuba starting in 2016, to alleged "directed" radio frequencies, setting off sustained, worldwide concern.
The Havana syndrome has become the latest episode of the U.S. centuries-old lying saga. As former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo boasted, "I was the CIA director, we lied, we cheated, we stole. We had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment."
Xinhua Commentary: Havana Syndrome just another episode in U.S. lying saga (Xinhua, Jan 24, 2022)

Now, it doesn't really surprise me anymore that Google won't show an article about 'Havana Syndrome' from Chinese Xinhua News, Russian RT* or Cuban Granma unless I add the names of these news sites to my search terms. However, it does surprise me that I only found the latest article about 'Havana Syndrome' by Robert Bartholomew (see post 1221) because I added his name to my Google search.


ETA:
*Secret of ‘microwave weapons’ targeting US diplomats revealed: The rise and fall of ‘Havana Syndrome’ is a story of lazy assumptions and sloppy reporting (RT, Jan 23, 2022)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 26th January 2022 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 26th January 2022, 03:24 AM   #1229
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Interview with Robert Baloh and Robert Bartholomew

I have seen them both before, but this is the first time I remember seeing both of the authors of the book Havana Syndrome - Mass Psychogenic Illness and the Real Story behind the Embassy Mystery on the same show. (It probably isn't easy when one is in Los Angeles, California, and the other is in Auckland, New Zealand.)

Quote:
It was a story straight out of a spy novel. A mysterious weapon used by hostile agents to target US diplomats around the world. A previously unknown technology in the hands of the enemies of the free world. It even has a name straight from the thriller section: 'The Havana Syndrome.'
Back in 2016, US staff of the American embassy in Cuba started complaining of severe headaches, nausea and other symptoms after hearing high pitched sounds. An official report backed up reports of brain damage, possibly caused by a sonic weapon. The syndrome has been reported from various locations across the globe since then.
It's become a political issue too. Politicians have pointed their finger at Russia as possibly being behind the attacks. Christopher Miller, the former Acting Defense Secretary under Donald Trump called the suspected directed energy attacks an 'act of war.'
But now in the latest twist in this murky saga, a large scale CIA report into the Havana Syndrome reportedly says that those suffering from the condition were not targeted in a global campaign by a foreign power. In fact, it concluded that the vast majority of cases were the result of stress or other conventional medical explanations.
Was 'Havana Syndrome' a case of mass hysteria? (DW News on YouTube, Jan 22, 2022)
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Quote:
Bartholomew: The doctors at the State Department went for the most exotic hypothesis early on. They went on a search for unicorns when they should have stuck to mundane explanations. And people say, 'Well, the U.S. government has been experimenting with microwaves for years.' That may be true. But the U.S. government also experimented for 20 years trying to develop psychic soldiers, doing remote viewing. And how did that work out? It didn't work out very well. Just because they're experimenting with it doesn't mean it's tru because there's something called the laws of physics.
And the other thing I'd like to point out here is that this shifted from Cuba to other parts of the world later on because the State Department and the Department of Defense issued alerts around the world to be on lookout for anomalous health incidents. And then people all over the world started reporting anomalous health incidents because because people have unusual health incidents all the time. And just because they have a health incident doesn't mean they have a mass psychogenic illness. A couple of these cases are simply people waking up in the morning having a headache of feeling unusual and attributing it to this new condition, Havana Syndrome.

Interviewer: Well, Dr Bartholomew, what do you think prompted these physicians when these cases were first reported, what made these physicians think of the zebra instead of the horse?

Bartholomew: Incompetence, really, and look, you have the National Academy of Sciences panel. No one invited us to present on that panel. You had a panel that was essentially loaded with believers and not skeptics. This is a clear case of politics being mixed with science, and whenever that happens, the outcome is not good. I'm sure professor Baloh and I would love to speak before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Man, I would love to see that! If it ever happens, I hope that it will be an open hearing.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 26th January 2022, 04:19 AM   #1230
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Checkmite is simply making things up at this point:

1) The CIA dismissed anything that didn't support the idea that its operatives were being attacked.
At which point did a CIA representative begin "laughing"? What specifically did they "laugh" at?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
2) An FBI report and the JASON report were kept secret. The latter only "obtained by Buzzfeed News via a Freedom of Information Act request" three years later.
I realize they both have three letters, but you should probably know that the FBI and the CIA are not the same agency. Additionally, your article cites a declassified report. As in, not classified. If it had still been classified, it would not have been eligible for release in response to the FOIA request (and no, classified materials are not declassified directly as a response to FOIA requests). And the State Department is not the CIA either; the CIA has no say over which State Department memos are classified at release, nor if or when they become declassified afterwards.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
3) The CIA and State Department investigations didn't begin till last year during the Biden administration.
I don't know how true that is about the CIA; but, the State Department investigation report cited in the article you just linked right up there ---^ says that it was completed in 2018. I'm admittedly not the best at math but my unqualified impression is that 2018 predates the Biden administration.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
4) The CIA investigation is not complete. I don't know what it is about the word interim that Checkmite does not understand.
You think it's possible the CIA is going to change its mind X-number of months from now and say "okay never mind, those cases we said were completely explainable, suddenly are not"? Do you think it's plausible that they will do so? If not, this is hair-splitting.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
5) If the CIA investigation had started when the others did, it would have taken much longer, not just a little longer, than the others. Some of those finished in 2018.
Like the State Department report?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
6) The investigations could have stopped with the JASON report, which wasn't released for a reason: It didn't support the CIA fairy tales about its agents being attacked.
Is that what the report says, or are you going all JFK-assassination-theory on me now?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
7) This irrational thinking was what made the State Department, the CIA and the Pentagon warn its millions of employees about being attacked and encouraging them to come forward with their symptoms, which made hundreds of them believe that they themselves were attack victims. No wonder that they now feel let down by their employers, who exposed them to MPI on a gigantic scale.
I'm sure telling the employees depending on them for support while inexplicably experiencing symptoms of what medical doctors examining them called "traumatic brain injury" would never have felt "let down" had their employers started proclaiming that not only was nothing actually wrong with them at all, but that no investigation was going to be conducted into their apparent illnesses either, lol!

Let's do a fun little exercise.

Premise: this scenario - government employees suddenly apparently succumbing to a mysterious illness with a broad spectrum of psychosomatic symptoms - has happened before, and to make the analogy a little more congruent let's place it in the recent past, but not too recent that any fallout would still be making news-cycles - say a decade or two prior to the Havana events. In this earlier instance, in contrast to the Havana situation, let us imagine the government's chosen approach to the initial complaints is to fairly immediately, unambiguously, and consistently dismiss the existence of an actual physical illness, and attribute the alleged various symptoms to various already-existing factors, including at least some amount of MPI; and let's further say that as with Havana, there are several medical and scientific studies over a several-year period supporting that there is nothing unusual actually happening to the employees experiencing the "illness", except that of course the government's position is in agreement with this scientific consensus rather than contradicting it.

How do you hypothesize the government employees who report experiencing the "symptoms" would react to the government's position that there is nothing happening to them? How do you think their reaction would compare to how those who believe they are victims of "Havana Syndrome" have reacted to the present-day government's initially-affirmative, later-negative response?
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Old 26th January 2022, 04:55 PM   #1231
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
China about the most recent development of the story about the 'Havana Syndrome':


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I AGREE





Now, it doesn't really surprise me anymore that Google won't show an article about 'Havana Syndrome' from Chinese Xinhua News, Russian RT* or Cuban Granma unless I add the names of these news sites to my search terms. However, it does surprise me that I only found the latest article about 'Havana Syndrome' by Robert Bartholomew (see post 1221) because I added his name to my Google search.


ETA:
*Secret of ‘microwave weapons’ targeting US diplomats revealed: The rise and fall of ‘Havana Syndrome’ is a story of lazy assumptions and sloppy reporting (RT, Jan 23, 2022)

Do you have a Google Alert set up for "havana syndrome"?
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Old 27th January 2022, 03:05 AM   #1232
dann
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No, I don't have Google Alert set up for anything.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th January 2022, 03:17 AM   #1233
dann
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Quote:
While Cuban officials rarely agree with anything their longtime nemesis, the CIA, says, Carlos Fernández de Cossío Domínguez, a vice minister at Cuba's foreign ministry, told CNN that the report should provide enough evidence for US President Joe Biden to order the reopening of embassies and normalize relations.
"The logical step by the US government with this evidence, with what they know now would be to put aside the excuse used at the time about attacks and then normalize the functioning and the operating of their embassy in Havana and to normalize our embassy in Washington," said Fernández de Cossío, who served as director general of US affairs at the Cuban foreign ministry.
(...)
"Cuba is the only country that is being punished because of this, which proves there was no justification -- which proves that this was a government delivered operation to use the excuse of symptoms suffered by diplomats to take action against Cuba," Fernández de Cossío said.
(..)
A senior CIA official said the agency hasn't ruled out that a smaller subset of incidents could be attacks, and the intelligence community continues to investigate "whether any device or mechanism plausibly could cause the symptoms reported."
Fernández de Cossío said the CIA may once again try to accuse the communist-run island of being involved in the incidents: "It's an agency known for its tricks and not for its honesty so one would think that they are leaving room for themselves to produce whatever version in the future."
Cuba calls on Biden to restaff embassies, normalize relations following CIA 'Havana Syndrome' report (CNN, Jan 26, 2022)
One would, indeed!

Video:
Quote:
A high-ranking official in Cuba's foreign ministry is calling for the Biden administration to restore relations with the island in light of a recent CIA report that found most "Havana syndrome" cases were unlikely to have been caused by a foreign power. CNN's Patrick Oppmann reports.
Cuban official reacts to CIA report on Havana Syndrome (CNN, Jan 27, 2022)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 27th January 2022 at 03:31 AM.
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Old 27th January 2022, 03:28 AM   #1234
dann
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Quote:
These new admissions from the CIA aren’t complete, though. Because not only haven’t there been any “attacks” on U.S. diplomats and spies in Havana or elsewhere, there isn’t actually a “syndrome” either, despite the U.S. Congress having passed a law compensating the supposed “victims” of that “syndrome.” As we wrote in our previous article, one of the original symptoms claimed for this “syndrome” was hearing loss. When the 21 diplomats in the U.S. Embassy in Havana were asked, nine claimed hearing loss. But when tested, only three actually had hearing loss, with no proof that their hearing was any worse than it had been before the alleged incidents.

Even more egregious are repeated references in articles over the years to “traumatic brain injury,” TBI. But in fact, brain scans showed no evidence of brain damage. Two individuals showed mild signs (small spots on an MRI image) and a third one showed moderate signs that, according to a report in the prestigious journal JAMA, were not specific, are present in many diseases and could be attributed to processes that occurred before those persons traveled to Cuba. There was zero evidence of actual TBI. In all likelihood, “Havana Syndrome” was just a combination of job stress combined with mass psychosis. That combination can produce real symptoms (though not hearing loss or TBI), but does not result from being “attacked.”
Havana Syndrome claims exposed … by the CIA! (Liberation News, Jan 26, 2022)

I didn't know about this letter from Dec 14, 2021, which is mentioned in the article:
Quote:
In December, even before this new revelation, 114 members of Congress signed a letter to President Biden, calling on him to rescind the changes in Cuba policy that have taken place in the past five years, and to “move towards normalization of U.S.-Cuba relations.”
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th January 2022, 06:30 AM   #1235
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Well, it seems to be collapsing surprisingly quickly!
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Old 28th January 2022, 04:27 AM   #1236
dann
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Another WP opinion piece: Havana syndrome’s source should not be so easily dismissed (Washington Post, Letter to the Editor, Jan 26, 2022)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 28th January 2022, 05:43 AM   #1237
dann
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Checkmite is simply making things up at this point:
1) The CIA dismissed anything that didn't support the idea that its operatives were being attacked.
At which point did a CIA representative begin "laughing"? What specifically did they "laugh" at?

I don't know what it is about the word "dismissed" that Checkmite doesn't understand ...

Quote:
I realize they both have three letters, but you should probably know that the FBI and the CIA are not the same agency. Additionally, your article cites a declassified report. As in, not classified. If it had still been classified, it would not have been eligible for release in response to the FOIA request (and no, classified materials are not declassified directly as a response to FOIA requests). And the State Department is not the CIA either; the CIA has no say over which State Department memos are classified at release, nor if or when they become declassified afterwards.

Checkmite doesn't appear to have heard about the first FBI report, which is why he thinks that I confuse it with the recent interim CIA report. He also doesn't appear to understand the meaning of the word declassified. I am surprised that he knows that the State Department is not the CIA.

Quote:
I don't know how true that is about the CIA; but, the State Department investigation report cited in the article you just linked right up there ---^ says that it was completed in 2018. I'm admittedly not the best at math but my unqualified impression is that 2018 predates the Biden administration.

At this point, I am also surprised that Checkmite is so good at math that he is able to tell that the JASON report predates the Biden administration. I am not surprised that he doesn't seem to know that two groups were commissioned to investigate the 'Havana Syndrome' during the Biden adminstration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dann View Post
4) The CIA investigation is not complete. I don't know what it is about the word interim that Checkmite (still) does not understand.
You think it's possible the CIA is going to change its mind X-number of months from now and say "okay never mind, those cases we said were completely explainable, suddenly are not"? Do you think it's plausible that they will do so? If not, this is hair-splitting.

Why on earth would I think that? Checkmite still seems to have problems with the word interim, which is why he resorts to hair-splitting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dann View Post
5) If the CIA investigation had started when the others did, it would have taken much longer, not just a little longer, than the others. Some of those finished in 2018.
Like the State Department report?

Maybe this will help:
Quote:
The State Department report was written by the JASON advisory group, an elite scientific board that has reviewed US national security concerns since the Cold War. It was completed in November of 2018, two years after dozens of US diplomats diplomats in Cuba and their families reported hearing buzzing noises and then experiencing puzzling neurological injuries, including pain, vertigo, and difficulty concentrating.
A Declassified State Department Report Says Microwaves Didn't Cause "Havana Syndrome" (Buzzfeed News, Sep 30, 2021)
But I won't get my hopes up ...

Quote:
Is that what the report says, or are you going all JFK-assassination-theory on me now?

I leave the conspiracy theories to Checkmite, the State Department and the CIA.

Quote:
I'm sure telling the employees depending on them for support while inexplicably experiencing symptoms of what medical doctors examining them called "traumatic brain injury" would never have felt "let down" had their employers started proclaiming that not only was nothing actually wrong with them at all, but that no investigation was going to be conducted into their apparent illnesses either, lol!

1) They didn't "inexplicably" experience symptoms. There was nothing inexplicable about it.
2) What the doctors called "traumatic brain injury" wasn't traumatic brain injury.
3) Something was wrong with them, MPI, which was exacerbated by the doctors proclaiming that their alleged "traumatic brain injury" was caused by attacks.
4) And instead of investigating it properly, the CIA had people removed from the investigation if they were open to MPI as a possible explanation of the alleged syndrome.
5) "lol" Really?!

Quote:
Let's do a fun little exercise.

Premise: this scenario - government employees suddenly apparently succumbing to a mysterious illness with a broad spectrum of psychosomatic symptoms - has happened before, and to make the analogy a little more congruent let's place it in the recent past, but not too recent that any fallout would still be making news-cycles - say a decade or two prior to the Havana events. In this earlier instance, in contrast to the Havana situation, let us imagine the government's chosen approach to the initial complaints is to fairly immediately, unambiguously, and consistently dismiss the existence of an actual physical illness, and attribute the alleged various symptoms to various already-existing factors, including at least some amount of MPI; and let's further say that as with Havana, there are several medical and scientific studies over a several-year period supporting that there is nothing unusual actually happening to the employees experiencing the "illness", except that of course the government's position is in agreement with this scientific consensus rather than contradicting it.

How do you hypothesize the government employees who report experiencing the "symptoms" would react to the government's position that there is nothing happening to them? How do you think their reaction would compare to how those who believe they are victims of "Havana Syndrome" have reacted to the present-day government's initially-affirmative, later-negative response?

Why make this hypothetical? Why invent a complicated thought experiment?
From Wikipedia's List of mass hysteria cases 1950 to 2000:
Quote:
San Diego (1988) — The U.S. Navy evacuated 600 men from barracks; 119 were sent to San Diego hospitals with complaints of breathing difficulty. No evidence of toxins, food poisoning, or any other cause was found.
Quote:
The Navy evacuated 600 men from the barracks starting at 9:30 p.m. and alerted county medical emergency authorities, who routed more than 50 ambulances to the scene by about 11 p.m. County Hazardous Materials officials found no evidence of toxic fumes, food poisoning or any other cause, Luchka said.
“We still don’t know what caused it. We are thinking on the contention that the unit had physical training together and could have spread a virus. Particles in the air from fires, a smog alert, and the heat could have combined to make some sick. There is a possibility the others might have thought they were sick after that,” he said.
“There were no toxic chemicals in their blood, so there is a possibility of mass hysteria.”
117 of Ill Recruits Returned to Base (L.A.Times, Sep 5, 1988)

I bet they also didn't find any evidence of directed microwave energy weapons or sinister perpetrators. Nor did any government agency try to persuade them and the rest of the world that those 600 (!) men had been attacked by Russian agents.
I haven't heard of any support groups for the 600 MPI sufferers from 1988. I don't think a SAN DIEGO Act was passed in Congress. Maybe the paranoia of U.S. governmental institutions was not as excessive back then as it is now.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 28th January 2022, 11:03 AM   #1238
dann
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Natalie Shure (see also posts 1219, 1142 and 1048) writes about the politicians and government institutions that have been much too willing to accept the story about the 'syndrome' and to take advantage of it:
Quote:
The fact that the agency is now explicitly declaring that no international plot to trigger common symptoms of general malaise among U.S. government employees exists underscores what many of us outside “the Blob” already knew: that there’s never been a lick of credible evidence backing the imagined nefarious cause of Havana Syndrome.
Washington’s “Havana Syndrome” Promoters Have a Lot to Answer For (The New Republic, Jan 28, 2022)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th January 2022, 03:37 AM   #1239
dann
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Why not?
Maybe they should also consider an evaluation to determine the extent to which the DoD has developed guidance and implemented procedures to identify and evaluate similar stupid ideas:

Quote:
We plan to begin the subject evaluation in January 2022. The objective of this evaluation is to determine the extent to which the Department of Defense has developed guidance and implemented procedures to identify and evaluate DoD personnel who may have “Havana Syndrome.” We may revise the objective as the evaluation proceeds, and we will also consider suggestions from management for additional or revised objectives.
Project Announcement: Evaluation of the Department of Defense’s Response to “Havana Syndrome” (Jan 24, 2022)

MEMORANDUM FOR DISTRIBUTION (Inspector General, Department of Defense, Jan 24, 2022)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th January 2022, 04:21 AM   #1240
dann
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I don't know about the rest of you, but I would love to hear more about the cases in France and Switzerland! All of a sudden, the reports just stopped coming.

US Seeks ‘Havana Syndrome’ Answers After Cases in Geneva and Paris (The Switzerland Times, Jan 13, 2022)
Blinken says US working on Havana Syndrome after diplomats' illnesses (The Jerusalem Post, Jan 13, 2022)
US diplomats in Geneva and Paris allegedly hit by ‘Havana Syndrome’ (Swiss Info, Jan 14, 2022)

It is almost as if some kind of conspiracy is trying to suppress the truth about these cases.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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