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Tags assault incidents , Charlottesville riot , protest incidents , Virginia incidents , white supremacists

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Old 5th September 2017, 02:22 PM   #2921
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So basically... "It's okay when people I like engage do it against people I dislike, otherwise it's never okay"

Very principled position.
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Old 5th September 2017, 02:34 PM   #2922
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
So basically... "It's okay when people I like engage do it against people I dislike, otherwise it's never okay"

Very principled position.
That's not my position.

If Nazis are parading outside a synagogue, their purpose is intimidation; they are trying to threaten the Jews of that synagogue. I think it is reasonable for any Jews to attack them in self defence. I think it is reasonable for other people to attack them in defence of the Jews.

If Nazis are attacking nonviolent protesters, I think it is reasonable to defend the nonviolent protesters.

In both these situations, it would be better for the police to arrest the Nazis, but if that is not happening, then I don't see why the Nazis should be allowed impunity.


If a Nazi is giving a speech, but they are not threatening anyone, then it is not alright to attack them. Mock them, yes, drown out their speech, yes. But not attack them. If they are giving a speech and are threatening someone, then it is reasonable to attack them in self-defence or defence of others.
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Old 5th September 2017, 02:55 PM   #2923
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
That's not my position.

If Nazis are parading outside a synagogue, their purpose is intimidation; they are trying to threaten the Jews of that synagogue. I think it is reasonable for any Jews to attack them in self defence. I think it is reasonable for other people to attack them in defence of the Jews.

If Nazis are attacking nonviolent protesters, I think it is reasonable to defend the nonviolent protesters.

In both these situations, it would be better for the police to arrest the Nazis, but if that is not happening, then I don't see why the Nazis should be allowed impunity.


If a Nazi is giving a speech, but they are not threatening anyone, then it is not alright to attack them. Mock them, yes, drown out their speech, yes. But not attack them. If they are giving a speech and are threatening someone, then it is reasonable to attack them in self-defence or defence of others.
Sounds a bit like pre-emptive self defense to me.

In my opinion, the only justification would be the sort of self-defense that would hold up in court. I'm not sure any of the Charlottesville violence would meet the criteria for legitimate self defense, with the possible exception of those who were defending the human chain park blockaders.
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Old 5th September 2017, 03:02 PM   #2924
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Sounds a bit like pre-emptive self defense to me.

In my opinion, the only justification would be the sort of self-defense that would hold up in court. I'm not sure any of the Charlottesville violence would meet the criteria for legitimate self defense, with the possible exception of those who were defending the human chain park blockaders.
It has occurred to me a few times that Liberals are growing more and more fond of the Bush Doctrine.
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Old 5th September 2017, 04:11 PM   #2925
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Quote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...tate-troopers/

"While the preliminary report did not include a cause, investigators said there was no indication that the Aug. 12 crash was the result of a mid-air collision with another aircraft, animal or object. "
So it look like helicopters do fall out of the sky without being shot down by protestors.
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Old 5th September 2017, 07:07 PM   #2926
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I watched a few more youtube Charlottesville videos. A couple of observations:

There were some seriously stupid people in that city that day. I mean, I'm sure everyone knew that, but actually seeing evidence of it right in front of you really drives it home. Bigly stupid.

In terms of credit, blame, or finger pointing, I definitely hope the police department of Charlottesville, and whatever city is next on the hate parade, takes a good look at their report. I really have a pretty dim view of their actions that day. First, they stood by activities where you could see a fight was about to erupt, and did nothing, even after it erupted, and even when they had a sizeable force that could have separated the camps without a significant threat to safety.

I was specifically looking for locked arm counterprotestors blocking paths, and white supremacists attempting breakthroughs. Some of those situations persisted for long periods, and cops were present, and they did nothing. They should have stepped in and either told the Nazis to go a different route, or told the blockers to let the Nazis through. Instead, they sat still and let the fights erupt. Really bad plan.

And then when the assembly was declared unlawful, what did they do? They forced the Nazis out of the park, into the streets crowded with counterdemonstrators. That ended predictably.

And who pees into a water balloon that they intend to throw on a city street? Talk about deplorable.

Finally, as an SCA member, it was really funny watching shield walls face off. I had thought only the Nazi side had shields, but antifa types did too. All of those guys could use some training. The cops' shield walls looked pretty good, but the demonstrators and counterdemonstrators were really ragged. Funnier, though, was all the tribal displays. The attempts to grab the other team's symbols, by stealing shields, or flags. It was funny to watch. One antifa guy slipped right inside the Nazi shield wall and stripped a flag right off the pole before escaping, much to the consternation of the Nazi bearer. It's probably hanging in his bedroom now.

All in all, a very bizarre thing to watch. It was some seriously primitive behavior.
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Old 5th September 2017, 07:26 PM   #2927
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
...Funnier, though, was all the tribal displays. The attempts to grab the other team's symbols, by stealing shields, or flags. It was funny to watch. One antifa guy slipped right inside the Nazi shield wall and stripped a flag right off the pole before escaping, much to the consternation of the Nazi bearer. It's probably hanging in his bedroom now.

All in all, a very bizarre thing to watch. It was some seriously primitive behavior.
There was some discussion on an earlier antifa thread about this trophy-taking. Back in the day, it used to be called scalping. Some posters here seemed to think it was literally some kind of physical threat. They actually refused to accept that these trophies were coveted spoils for these knuckleheads.
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Old 5th September 2017, 07:44 PM   #2928
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I watched a few more youtube Charlottesville videos. A couple of observations:

There were some seriously stupid people in that city that day. I mean, I'm sure everyone knew that, but actually seeing evidence of it right in front of you really drives it home. Bigly stupid.

In terms of credit, blame, or finger pointing, I definitely hope the police department of Charlottesville, and whatever city is next on the hate parade, takes a good look at their report. I really have a pretty dim view of their actions that day. First, they stood by activities where you could see a fight was about to erupt, and did nothing, even after it erupted, and even when they had a sizeable force that could have separated the camps without a significant threat to safety.

I was specifically looking for locked arm counterprotestors blocking paths, and white supremacists attempting breakthroughs. Some of those situations persisted for long periods, and cops were present, and they did nothing. They should have stepped in and either told the Nazis to go a different route, or told the blockers to let the Nazis through. Instead, they sat still and let the fights erupt. Really bad plan.

And then when the assembly was declared unlawful, what did they do? They forced the Nazis out of the park, into the streets crowded with counterdemonstrators. That ended predictably.

And who pees into a water balloon that they intend to throw on a city street? Talk about deplorable.
Yeah, considering I've seen them come in swinging batons when it's just one group and nobody's broken any windows yet, their stunning lack of engagement that day was either comically inept or deviously intentional.

Quote:
Finally, as an SCA member, it was really funny watching shield walls face off. I had thought only the Nazi side had shields, but antifa types did too. All of those guys could use some training. The cops' shield walls looked pretty good, but the demonstrators and counterdemonstrators were really ragged. Funnier, though, was all the tribal displays. The attempts to grab the other team's symbols, by stealing shields, or flags. It was funny to watch. One antifa guy slipped right inside the Nazi shield wall and stripped a flag right off the pole before escaping, much to the consternation of the Nazi bearer. It's probably hanging in his bedroom now.
Yeah, definitely in need of a few bridge/gatehouse melees for practice.

I have fond memories of going to War of the Lilies (Smithville Lake, Missouri) as a young boy. Barony of the Forgotten Sea in the Kingdom of Calontir!

Quote:
All in all, a very bizarre thing to watch. It was some seriously primitive behavior.
It's hard not to get sucked in, we are herd creatures.
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Old 6th September 2017, 12:33 AM   #2929
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post

All of which are already the case.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk
Then we are in agreement.
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Old 11th September 2017, 04:15 AM   #2930
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
That's not my position.

If Nazis are parading outside a synagogue, their purpose is intimidation; they are trying to threaten the Jews of that synagogue. I think it is reasonable for any Jews to attack them in self defence. I think it is reasonable for other people to attack them in defence of the Jews.
But you have to remember it is crazy talk that jews would find nazis threatening. Being surrounded by people chanting for you death is so relaxing.
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Old 11th September 2017, 04:39 AM   #2931
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
This is a case where one person is on the ground being beaten by clubs. There's nothing that can justify that.
That's funny because I have it on good authority that you can punch Nazis simply for having an opinion.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Come on, we both know that you were trying to set up a gotcha. It was really transparent.
You set yourself up, by being inconsistent.
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Old 11th September 2017, 04:45 AM   #2932
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's funny because I have it on good authority that you can punch Nazis simply for having an opinion.
And that is problematic because most nazis are really good people like the president says. They just object to non people like jews replacing them.
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:22 AM   #2933
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But you have to remember it is crazy talk that jews would find nazis threatening. Being surrounded by people chanting for you death is so relaxing.
That so true. People who call for violence, like the vile slime you see here, cannot be tolerated. If we don't bash their heads in today they will just keep chanting tomorrow.
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Old 11th September 2017, 10:56 AM   #2934
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
That so true. People who call for violence, like the vile slime you see here, cannot be tolerated. If we don't bash their heads in today they will just keep chanting tomorrow.
Yes, because calls for violence against people who are of different races or ethnicities is the exact moral equivalent as calls for violence against people making those calls for violence.
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Old 11th September 2017, 11:13 AM   #2935
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yes, because calls for violence against people who are of different races or ethnicities is the exact moral equivalent as calls for violence against people making those calls for violence.
People who hate nazis and white supremacists are the real bigots of course.
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:52 PM   #2936
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And that is problematic because most nazis are really good people like the president says. They just object to non people like jews replacing them.
...Wait, so are the jews trying to replace them directly, like "Hahaha, I've taken your job, I'm a jew!" And then they crash through the ceiling tiles and plant the jew flag in front of the Target cash register?

Or are the jews replacing the Tiki-American crowd with some other non-white group or other, like "Hahaha, I'm giving your job to a negro, and giving him a white woman, I'm a jew!"

I was assuming the latter, since that's the usually role jewish people play in the fever-dreams of these violent lunatics, but their neo-nazi chants didn't really specify...
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Old 11th September 2017, 09:51 PM   #2937
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
People who hate nazis and white supremacists are the real bigots of course.
I've encountered plenty of conservatives who sincerely believe that people who don't tolerate white supremacists are just as bad as white supremacists.
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Old 12th September 2017, 03:54 AM   #2938
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I've encountered plenty of conservatives who sincerely believe that people who don't tolerate white supremacists are just as bad as white supremacists.
It is a standard argument.
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Old 12th September 2017, 08:55 AM   #2939
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I've encountered plenty of conservatives who sincerely believe that people who don't tolerate white supremacists are just as bad as white supremacists.
I've seen much of the same.
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:40 AM   #2940
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yes, because calls for violence against people who are of different races or ethnicities is the exact moral equivalent as calls for violence against people making those calls for violence.
Good. You understand that calls for violence are calls for violence.
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Old 12th September 2017, 04:12 PM   #2941
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I've encountered plenty of conservatives who sincerely believe that people who don't tolerate white supremacists are just as bad as white supremacists.
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I've seen much of the same.
I haven't, although I've seen plenty of liberals make substantially the same claim.

What I've seen is lots of conscientious people who value principles and sincerely believe that one's beliefs should never be a justification for depriving that person of their civil liberties, no matter how odious those beliefs are to others.
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Old 12th September 2017, 04:16 PM   #2942
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Good. You understand that calls for violence are calls for violence.

Your reading comprehensions seems to be (deliberately, I suspect) infantile.
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Old 12th September 2017, 08:05 PM   #2943
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I haven't, although I've seen plenty of liberals make substantially the same claim.

What I've seen is lots of conscientious people who value principles and sincerely believe that one's beliefs should never be a justification for depriving that person of their civil liberties, no matter how odious those beliefs are to others.
I've seen both liberals and conservatives make similar claims, but I agree with the second paragraph above.
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:49 AM   #2944
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I haven't, although I've seen plenty of liberals make substantially the same claim.

What I've seen is lots of conscientious people who value principles and sincerely believe that one's beliefs should never be a justification for depriving that person of their civil liberties, no matter how odious those beliefs are to others.
But is it ok to call nazis deplorable yet as opposed to a year ago when calling nazis deplorable was hugely offensive?
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:52 AM   #2945
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More conservatives and cops show their true feelings about the acceptability of running down protestors.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.39b0903c7df9

At least they are not punching people, that would be totally unacceptable. Crushing them under cars is just funny.
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Old 13th September 2017, 07:19 AM   #2946
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
More conservatives and cops show their true feelings about the acceptability of running down protestors.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.39b0903c7df9

At least they are not punching people, that would be totally unacceptable. Crushing them under cars is just funny.

Just a mistake. No harm intended. (Reminiscent of banana peels in trees?)
Quote:
Others downplayed the post as an accident that was getting blown out of proportion.
“My god people, it was an accident. I know I’m far from perfect. The next time you error I hope you get publicity ridiculed,” another Facebook user wrote. “Do you truly believe the county or the employee involved would purposely do this. Put on your grown up cloths, take it for what it is and move on. Stop being butt hurt at every opportunity. Our country has bigger issues than a misplaced post.”
And the totally innocent poster of this mistake was 'quick to take responsibility' ...
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“I was on my personal page, went to share….must have hit share to a page you manage rather than just the share….I didn’t see that I had done this until I got a phone call — it was meant to be shared with a cousin of mine….now I’m trying to figure out how to unlink my personal and work facebook pages….so it will never happen again,” the county account wrote in a reply to a Facebook user.
Apparently the idea that it might be no less offensive just because it was being shared between friends didn't occur to them.

It is fascinating to see the instinct some people have to jump in to explain this sort of thing away as perfectly harmless. "They didn't mean anything by it." "Just a joke."

The idea that what was said might have actually been what was meant is apparently (always?) just too ridiculous to contemplate.



And ever questioning their sincerity at all is just too ridiculous, as well.
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Old 13th September 2017, 09:20 AM   #2947
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Your reading comprehensions seems to be (deliberately, I suspect) infantile.
Militant consistency is what it is called. Equal justice under the law. No double standards. That sort of thing.
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