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Old 22nd May 2020, 02:16 PM   #1
Checkmite
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Incel shoots up Arizona mall, wounds 3

This event as far as I can tell wasn't mentioned here when it happened this past Wednesday, May 20th. A local man identified as Armando Hernandez entered a shopping mall in Glendale, Arizona and began firing at shoppers in an attack which he live-streamed on Snapchat. By sheer luck, his spray of bullets managed to only wound 3 people, one of whom remains in serious condition in the hospital. Hernandez used an AR-15, the Mass Shooter Special, for his attack.

Hernandez was captured alive and has been talking to investigators. By his own account, he has contemplated such an attack for a long time to punish society out of frustration at being an "incel", and intimated that he had specifically tried to target couples during the mall attack.

Quote:
"Mr. [Armando] Hernandez had the purpose of taking out his express anger at society, the feeling that he has been bullied, the feeling that women don't want him," Leiter said in court Thursday.

Leiter also detailed that while the suspect said he didn’t intend to kill anyone, he had every intention to cause injury to people at the mall with their significant others.

"He specifically was hoping to shoot at least 10 people," Leiter said, successfully making the case for bail to be set at $1 million. “He wanted these people to feel the pain that he feels on a daily basis. He suffers from extreme anger. He’s very open about the fact that he has a dark side, and his dark side was coming out.”
Although he has been planning the attack for a prolonged period, he has told police that he decided today was the day, when he learned that a restaurant and theater he wanted to visit at the mall complex were both closed due to COVID, after which he became enraged.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 09:02 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This event as far as I can tell wasn't mentioned here when it happened this past Wednesday, May 20th. A local man identified as Armando Hernandez entered a shopping mall in Glendale, Arizona and began firing at shoppers in an attack which he live-streamed on Snapchat. By sheer luck, his spray of bullets managed to only wound 3 people, one of whom remains in serious condition in the hospital. Hernandez used an AR-15, the Mass Shooter Special, for his attack.

Hernandez was captured alive and has been talking to investigators. By his own account, he has contemplated such an attack for a long time to punish society out of frustration at being an "incel", and intimated that he had specifically tried to target couples during the mall attack.



Although he has been planning the attack for a prolonged period, he has told police that he decided today was the day, when he learned that a restaurant and theater he wanted to visit at the mall complex were both closed due to COVID, after which he became enraged.
So the question is how do we link this to White Supremacist terrorism?
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Old 22nd May 2020, 09:19 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
So the question is how do we link this to White Supremacist terrorism?
Incels are (mostly) very young males who believe they are being denied their God given rights to females of their choice, and if they can't screw somebody of their choice by the time they turn 20, they are doomed to a life of failure.

Sex is a right, and "foids" (women) always go out of their way to insult or completely avoid them, because they self describe as sub-normal, in a world of "chads" who female "10's get whenever they want, "normies", the majority of men, who get to mate with a used woman (previously screwed by multiple chads) eventually, and themselves as the lowest of the low who don't get what the Government should be providing them - free sex with "10" women.


They consider that women have no rights at all, cannot think, are inferior to men in every way, and should be allocated by rule of law to men by the Government.

And these women must always be under 20 (the age varies a bit but they also must be virgin) because over twenty they have also had hundreds of relationships with dozens of "chads" and over thirty, all "foids" are all ugly and old.

They cannot be linked to any other group. They are simply a group of outliers who live for their self pity, and think that they have been cheated of a basic right - sex.


Norm
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Old 22nd May 2020, 09:34 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
So the question is how do we link this to White Supremacist terrorism?
Considering that this is the second Incel attack in a few days and a third one was arrested after buying weapons for an attack in NY about a week ago, there is no need to tie these attacks to WS. Incel Terrorism is a well known thing and has been increasing over the last few years with a number of attacks being done by them.

It just goes to show that not all White Male Losers are White Supremacists. Some of just Misogynists that can't get laid.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 09:46 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
So the question is how do we link this to White Supremacist terrorism?
Easy.

He's crazy.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 09:59 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
So the question is how do we link this to White Supremacist terrorism?
I didn't see his live video myself but I've heard people saying he made some sort of comments during it which would indicate he was anti-white / anti-racist in some way.

Anyone able to confirm if this is the case?
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Old 22nd May 2020, 10:48 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Incels are (mostly) very young males who believe they are being denied their God given rights to females of their choice, and if they can't screw somebody of their choice by the time they turn 20, they are doomed to a life of failure.

Sex is a right, and "foids" (women) always go out of their way to insult or completely avoid them, because they self describe as sub-normal, in a world of "chads" who female "10's get whenever they want, "normies", the majority of men, who get to mate with a used woman (previously screwed by multiple chads) eventually, and themselves as the lowest of the low who don't get what the Government should be providing them - free sex with "10" women.


They consider that women have no rights at all, cannot think, are inferior to men in every way, and should be allocated by rule of law to men by the Government.

And these women must always be under 20 (the age varies a bit but they also must be virgin) because over twenty they have also had hundreds of relationships with dozens of "chads" and over thirty, all "foids" are all ugly and old.

They cannot be linked to any other group. They are simply a group of outliers who live for their self pity, and think that they have been cheated of a basic right - sex.


Norm
Pretty horrible outlook, to be sure. And I can't help but think most of the US militia types and COVID-denying statehouse-protesting door-lickers would overlap a lot with this attitude.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 11:32 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
So the question is how do we link this to White Supremacist terrorism?
This perpetrator was also motivated by an inevitably-destructive worldview which asserts a specific right or destiny that is owed to a certain group of people as part of a "natural order"; that this status quo is under "threat" of being overturned by an enemy bent on destroying that natural order, and that if the group under threat wishes to survive it needs to fight back against that enemy and reassert its proper dominance, violently if necessary.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 04:34 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I didn't see his live video myself but I've heard people saying he made some sort of comments during it which would indicate he was anti-white / anti-racist in some way.

Anyone able to confirm if this is the case?

Links to people saying this?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 05:27 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Links to people saying this?
He apparently reads forums / reddits / chans that repeat rumors and gossip and then spreads it here. A lie goes around the world before the truth can get it's pants on, etc.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 08:26 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Incels are (mostly) very young males who believe they are being denied their God given rights to females of their choice, and if they can't screw somebody of their choice by the time they turn 20, they are doomed to a life of failure.
They got that part right.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 08:44 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
This perpetrator was also motivated by an inevitably-destructive worldview which asserts a specific right or destiny that is owed to a certain group of people as part of a "natural order"; that this status quo is under "threat" of being overturned by an enemy bent on destroying that natural order, and that if the group under threat wishes to survive it needs to fight back against that enemy and reassert its proper dominance, violently if necessary.
None of that is exclusive or even exceptional of white supremacism as it is common with most forms of extreme political ideology based on collectivism and traditionalism.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:00 AM   #13
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Just about everything I've read indicates that incel, which is supposed to mean involuntarily celibate, seems to actually mean that these people are simply not able to have sex with the people they want to have sex with. In other words they are voluntarily celibate. They do not want to change their behavior to attract a partner and have decided that lowering the bar to gain a companion is not appropriate.

Am I missing anything here? Is calling yourself incel just a plea for attention/sympathy from misanthropes?

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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:01 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
None of that is exclusive or even exceptional of white supremacism as it is common with most forms of extreme political ideology based on collectivism and traditionalism.
A racist asked a disingenuous question and people are answering it. They aren't making claims as to exclusivity or exceptionalism.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:07 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
Incels are (mostly) very young males who believe they are being denied their God given rights to females of their choice, and if they can't screw somebody of their choice by the time they turn 20, they are doomed to a life of failure.

Sex is a right, and "foids" (women) always go out of their way to insult or completely avoid them, because they self describe as sub-normal, in a world of "chads" who female "10's get whenever they want, "normies", the majority of men, who get to mate with a used woman (previously screwed by multiple chads) eventually, and themselves as the lowest of the low who don't get what the Government should be providing them - free sex with "10" women.


They consider that women have no rights at all, cannot think, are inferior to men in every way, and should be allocated by rule of law to men by the Government.

And these women must always be under 20 (the age varies a bit but they also must be virgin) because over twenty they have also had hundreds of relationships with dozens of "chads" and over thirty, all "foids" are all ugly and old.

They cannot be linked to any other group. They are simply a group of outliers who live for their self pity, and think that they have been cheated of a basic right - sex.


Norm
What's so uncomfortable about this is just how utterly delusional and insane it is.

It's not like as if they are just saying "oh it sure would be nice if you could go down to slave market and buy a slave to have sex with" because they can't get any, rather it's this delusional and conspiratorial self-pitying narrative where the rest of society is pitted against them that directly leads them to focus their resentment and anger against society.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:24 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
So the question is how do we link this to White Supremacist terrorism?
There are already plenty of connections from the racists to these nuts.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:42 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
What's so uncomfortable about this is just how utterly delusional and insane it is.

It's not like as if they are just saying "oh it sure would be nice if you could go down to slave market and buy a slave to have sex with" because they can't get any, rather it's this delusional and conspiratorial self-pitying narrative where the rest of society is pitted against them that directly leads them to focus their resentment and anger against society.
I should add here that many of these people seem not that very interested in the sex part, at least no primarily. With that in mind it gets even more crazy since they cannot demand that women, or anyone for that matter, like them. It's utterly insane to act like one is entitled to something that society cannot even in theory give them and then thinking that one has thus been victimized.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 09:58 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Links to people saying this?
It's the "No True Racist" arguement
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:05 AM   #19
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It appears likely that a major reason the males who buy into the incel “movement” have problems finding mates is because of their crazy, misogynistic beliefs. One would already have to have a delusional, bizarre view of women to even be susceptible to the world view presented by the movement. And that had to have come through when these males were attempting to befriend (okay, hook up with) women even before they discovered the sick explanations offered by the incel community. I presume that most women would run to the hills after even a brief interaction with such men because of the frightening signals being emitted by them.

I have seen a wide variety of men (and women) find wonderful companions no matter their own looks, wealth, or even intelligence. Sure, wealth, looks, intelligence, and even luck make it easier, but being caring, fun to be with, and respectful seem to be the most crucial traits.

I can’t address the idea that these delusional men are seeking only supermodels with PhDs in physics. But I suspect that many have failed at establishing a relationship with any woman and that is the core of their bitterness and anger. And if they then wish to buy into a conspiracy movement, why not buy into one that says they deserve the supermodel physicist, rather than just the woman office assistant down the hall?

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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:25 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It appears likely that a major reason the males who buy into the incel “movement” have problems finding mates is because of their crazy, misogynistic beliefs. One would already have to have a delusional, bizarre view of women to even be susceptible to the world view presented by the movement. And that had to have come through when these males were attempting to befriend (okay, hook up with) women even before they discovered the sick explanations offered by the incel community. I presume that most women would run to the hills after even a brief interaction with such men because of the frightening signals being emitted by them.

I have seen a wide variety of men (and women) find wonderful companions no matter their own looks, wealth, or even intelligence. Sure, wealth, looks, intelligence, and even luck make it easier, but being caring, fun to be with, and respectful seem to be the most crucial traits.
I can't say I've paid very close attention this is phenomenon but from what I've read it seems to mostly about the inability to socialize with women or even people in general that's the problem.

Generally the impression i get is that they expect women (from what i can tell, few if any of these people are gay or even slightly bisexual) are going to just present themselves and "fall in love" with them spontaneously while they themselves make no effort to seek out potential partners. Meanwhile they rarely socialize, hangout with people or stuff like that. They somehow neglect the importance of those things, or even fail to account for them at all.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:36 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I should add here that many of these people seem not that very interested in the sex part, at least no primarily. With that in mind it gets even more crazy since they cannot demand that women, or anyone for that matter, like them. It's utterly insane to act like one is entitled to something that society cannot even in theory give them and then thinking that one has thus been victimized.
I disagree with your take here; by the time someone has transitioned from just being depressed about not having found love to a fullblown "incel", I don't think they care whether women like them. That women don't remains true, but there is something of a resignation to it. Rather, their fantasy-world is one in which women's preferences ultimately don't matter - at some point there is a familial and societal expectation that they should find a man and eventually be married, and if it so happens that they don't manage to get the man they want, then they have no alternative but to settle for another in order to fulfil this cultural obligation. And of course, men are men, so even if he isn't the man of her dreams a wife knows her role nevertheless, and once married defers to and obeys and respects and depends upon her husband, end of story. This is the natural order, according to incel mythology.

Enter "libs", who have enabled women to be able to achieve self-sufficiency and even have a comfortable life without needing a husband, destroying the stereotype and low-key shame of becoming a "spinster" if they fail to find a man. Women who determine they're not going to end up the man-of-their-dreams now have the option to just say "no" to the marriage business altogether without consequence or stigma. Thusly not needing to worry about "saving themselves for a husband", these empowered women are free to seek the only things they really want from men (i.e., sex and money) without the constraints of monogamy, certainly a mutually-beneficial arrangement in the eyes of men who know they have these things to offer (i.e., "chads") and don't want the obligation either. The only losers in this new order are second-tier unattractive or unwealthy men who will now never be sought after for marriage even as a last resort, and can't even play the free-sex game as a consolation prize.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:54 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
It appears likely that a major reason the males who buy into the incel “movement” have problems finding mates is because of their crazy, misogynistic beliefs. One would already have to have a delusional, bizarre view of women to even be susceptible to the world view presented by the movement. And that had to have come through when these males were attempting to befriend (okay, hook up with) women even before the men discovered the sick explanations offered by the incel community. I presume that most women would run to the hills after even a brief interaction with such men because of the frightening signals being emitted by them.

I have seen a wide variety of men (and women) find wonderful companions no matter their own looks, wealth, or even intelligence. Sure, wealth, looks, intelligence, and even luck make it easier, but being caring, fun to be with, and respectful seem to be the most crucial traits.

I can’t address the idea that these delusional men are seeking only supermodels with PhDs in physics. But I suspect that many have failed at establishing a relationship with any woman and that is the core of their bitterness and anger. And if they then wish to buy into a conspiracy movement, why not buy into one that says they desire the supermodel physicist, rather than just the woman office assistant down the hall?
I don't think this is a major reason. I suspect it grows over time as people isolate themselves and engage only in hateful echo chambers, wallowing in their own misery and that of others. One doesn't need to feel "entitled" to something to feel bad about not having it, either. Especially when it comes to intimacy, sex and in general human connections. Dating takes skill and that skill takes refinement. Just like making friends or other social interactions. I'd wager most incels don't have those skills + aren't very attractive and after spending time in spaces where others will listen to them (again, which I think quickly turn into hateful echo chambers considering they're full of depressed people) they take on those same characteristics: blaming women and successful men for their lack of success.

Also seeing lack of sex (for some, though I think lack of human connection and meaningful social interactions are more important) as "faults" of themselves (or the society around them, if they're blaming others). Frankly, that message is pushed by society (on men); If you are a virgin male (you haven't "won" a woman over in some way) then you DO have less value, and are shamed for it. It's like the opposite of slut-shaming, in a sense. Boys see this kind of messaging as early as childhood and absolutely by their teenage years. It's not wonder these people are broken, and either see themselves as irredeemable or society to blame for wronging them.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 01:32 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I disagree with your take here; by the time someone has transitioned from just being depressed about not having found love to a fullblown "incel", I don't think they care whether women like them.
At least in some cases I don't think that is the case. I think many of them are genuinely upset by the "rejection" (real or merely imagined) they receive. At least in the quoted statement you posted the prosecutor specifically mentioned that he felt "that women don't want him". Their lack of insight into their own situation and the delusions they have about what motivates people comes off as almost psychotic.

Clearly not all "incels" go on rampages or try to kill people, but the ones who end up doing so invariably comes off as narcissistic in that the major motivation is that the mental "anguish" they experience is enough to justify hurting others. One of the distinguishing characteristics of narcissists are that they take any perceived rejection very strongly and often have difficulty empathizing with others.
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And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 23rd May 2020 at 01:34 PM.
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