|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
21st August 2017, 12:31 AM | #1 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 28,964
|
The Trump Lies Thread
I wanted start a thread just to document odd lies Trump has been caught in. Not necessarily related to his presidency. I realize there's a gazillion examples already, but feel free to add any particularly notable ones.
I'll start with this. This one is not new, but I just learned about it today and I thought it seemed a bit breathtaking in its audacity. There's a handy Wikipedia article about it: River of Blood (monument)
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If that is a legitimate critique of these local historians, then obviously the same thing applies to Trump and to the alleged "numerous historians" who told "his people" about this event. Then I wonder, who are these "numerous historians"? Did he ever produce a single one? All the actual historians other than the ones Trump claims to have heard from seem to be in agreement that no such event occurred. His "reasoning" that there was a civil war going on at the time, and people crossed the river here and therefore a lot of people must have been shot here is also not at all how historians go about establishing facts. So, Occam's razor seems to be that he just made it all up himself. Does it matter? Maybe not in the grand scheme of things, but it's another example of how he approaches things. It's a little bit like the fake Time magazine cover he had made and put up at his country clubs. He is willing to simply make up convenient "facts" out of thin air. Almost always these "facts" flatter him (or his properties in this case) in some way. Is it possible that somebody else told him this story and he believed it? Maybe, but why? He has not been able to produce the alleged "historians" who told him or "his people" about it. So all we have is an unverifiable claim. Much more likely I think is that he made this one up by himself, out of whole cloth. To add a bit of a historical touch to his golf course. |
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare |
|
21st August 2017, 01:01 AM | #2 |
Disorder of Kilopi
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 17,625
|
Good example of how Trump always confuses his uninformed and transparently self-serving loose impressions with facts.
|
__________________
"His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks." - Da Joik |
|
21st August 2017, 01:28 AM | #3 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
It sheds light on his thought processes. And the sort of lie that a normal lying politician wouldn't make as they know it would be easy to disprove.
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
21st August 2017, 01:46 AM | #4 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,919
|
|
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه |
|
21st August 2017, 02:49 AM | #5 |
Scholar
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 77
|
I think to 45 it does not actually matter if any given claim actually bears any truth or substance at all. The standard he goes by if whether or not it "works", in terms of making him look good.
I think this has been established many times, and the only reason for 45 to even dispute this allegation would be to, again, make him look better. So at some point I suppose he entirely stopped thinking about the truth of his many claims and resorted exclusively to this standard. To me, this more and more looks like a game. It's pretty close to a con man's game of make-believe, but he's playing it with remarkable consistency and, sadly, success. |
21st August 2017, 03:01 AM | #6 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 28,964
|
Exactly. Whether it is true or not is not relevant. "Can I get away with it" is what he asks himself. He's basically saying that people he won't name told other people he won't name that it was true. There's no way to check that because we don't even know who these people are. So while it looks like total BS, it's hard to prove it definitively, because his excuse is unfalsifiable without more information, specifically who exactly was told what by whom. Then you could go to those people and ask them, but as it stands, he gave a vague excuse that can't be checked.
|
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare |
|
21st August 2017, 03:14 AM | #7 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
21st August 2017, 04:02 AM | #8 |
Papa Funkosophy
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 34,263
|
I feel this thread topic is a little too broad.
|
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
21st August 2017, 08:37 AM | #9 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 33,710
|
|
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . |
|
21st August 2017, 09:28 AM | #10 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 31,644
|
|
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK |
|
21st August 2017, 09:48 AM | #11 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The old Same place
Posts: 11,138
|
Wasn't there a similar thread started several thousand lies ago?
|
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie. |
|
21st August 2017, 10:34 AM | #12 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
You are going to max out the servers with this thread......
|
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
21st August 2017, 02:28 PM | #13 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
|
|
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150 |
|
21st August 2017, 02:53 PM | #14 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 28,964
|
There does not appear to be any evidence to support that. I think this is just idle speculation on your part.
No, I think Trump himself made it up. As to the plausibility of the story, there isn't even a date attached. Actual historical events have dates attached. You can see the plaque here: http://www.loudountimes.com/images/u...Trump_sign.jpg ETA: BTW, Trump is the local tourism interest here. He owns the golf course. |
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare |
|
21st August 2017, 02:57 PM | #15 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
|
I think it's fair to say Trump does not critically evaluate the stories that he hears.
Quote:
Trump's deliberate lies are defensive, about matters he's all too aware of, having been intimately involved for years. I can't imagine they'll stand up to Mueller's attentions. |
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150 |
|
21st August 2017, 03:12 PM | #16 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
|
This is going to be a very long thread! Can the ISF servers handle it and the Immortality thread at the same time?
I suggest the opposite might be more efficient: list Trump's statements that are documented truths. The thread may end here I have taken the same approach when I become upset by whatever Trump's latest moral failure is; instead of adding it to a long list of his other moral failures, I list Trump's personal qualities that are considered positives (i.e. ones that parents would wish for their children).. I haven't come up with one yet. Saves a lot of time. |
21st August 2017, 03:21 PM | #17 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
|
It is, but plausible. There's plenty of passing trade by the riverside, hence diners and picnic areas. A Civil War myth would go down nicely, especially with a catchy title. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence : has anybody researched the history of the myth on the ground ? I'd be happy to do so for expenses.
Quote:
Quote:
|
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150 |
|
21st August 2017, 04:12 PM | #18 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 28,964
|
Do you have any particular expertise in that sort of thing? I certainly don't have the resources to pay for your expenses. I'm just a working class guy trying to raise a family and make ends meet. Such a thing is conceivable, but so far there is no evidence that anyone other than Trump has made this particular claim.
Quote:
Quote:
Anyway, as far as motives go, nobody would have more motive to fabricate this than Trump himself. So, I'm just wondering why you find that explanation less plausible than somebody else making it up? Especially given his history of lying? |
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare |
|
24th August 2017, 01:23 AM | #19 |
Becoming Beth
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 27,292
|
Military action on the Potomac in the immediate environs of Washington D.C. during the Civil War are probably among the most well and thoroughly documented of anywhere in the country. We aren't talking about ancient history here. We still have hard copies of newspapers of the time. We have a wealth of published diaries and memoirs. There is an embarrassment of riches in records that has been made available to the public essentially since the day the first shot of the war was fired. There shouldn't be any need to do local "on the ground" research. If no references to this "River of Blood" phantasm can be uncovered in any contemporaneous documents then there isn't even anywhere to start looking on the ground. Aside from Trump's bogus plaque I am not aware of any such claims having been made, much less any supported by any historical source. It's a lie. Pure and simple. Don't waste your time. Take a stroll through the Smithsonian instead if you're in the neighborhood. |
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
|
24th August 2017, 01:53 AM | #20 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,982
|
|
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
24th August 2017, 07:53 AM | #21 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
|
|
24th August 2017, 10:21 AM | #22 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
The irony is there is a real Civil War "River of Blood";
But's it on the Tenessee/Georgia border. It's called Chickamauge, which meant River Of Blood in the Cherokee language, and it lived up to it's name when it was the site of one of the Bloodiest Battles of the Civil War. |
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
24th August 2017, 10:24 AM | #23 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 60,375
|
A Trump de facto lie;
The White House stated Tuesday morning that Trump would not pardon Joe Apraiio at his now infamous Tuesday Night Rally,but Trump pretty much announced he is going to pardon Arapaio.Classic case of "equivocation"; lying but using semantics to appear not to be lying. |
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
|
25th August 2017, 03:27 PM | #24 |
Banned
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
|
For the curious: https://www.civilwar.org/learn/civil...es/chickamauga
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|