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Old 21st August 2017, 12:31 AM   #1
Puppycow
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The Trump Lies Thread

I wanted start a thread just to document odd lies Trump has been caught in. Not necessarily related to his presidency. I realize there's a gazillion examples already, but feel free to add any particularly notable ones.


I'll start with this.
This one is not new, but I just learned about it today and I thought it seemed a bit breathtaking in its audacity. There's a handy Wikipedia article about it:

River of Blood (monument)

Quote:
The River of Blood monument is a monument located on a golf course on Lowes Island, Virginia, owned by US President Donald Trump. A plaque signed with Trump's name states that the monument marks the site of numerous deaths in the American Civil War, but no battle or other event with mass casualties took place there.
Quote:
On one of the courses, between the 14th and the 15th hole, Trump had a stone pedestal built with a flagpole on it, and had a plaque placed on the pedestal,[1] with the inscription:

Many great American soldiers, both of the North and South, died at this spot. The casualties were so great that the water would turn red and thus became known as "The River of Blood".[1]

The plaque bears Trump's name and the Trump Organization's crest.[2] The accompanying text reads, "It is my great honor to have preserved this important section of the Potomac River!"[1]
Quote:
Historians say no such event ever took place at this site. One local historian, Craig Swain, cited the killing of two soldiers by citizens in 1861 as the only Civil War event that occurred on the island.[3] The site lies near Rowser's Ford, over which on June 27, 1863, General Stuart led 5,000 Confederate soldiers with no record of fatalities, and according to the president of the Mosby Heritage Area Association, the only Civil War battle in the area was the Battle of Ball's Bluff, 11 miles away.[1] Other historians consulted by The New York Times for a story in 2015 agree; one of them had written to the Trump Organization about the falsehood. Trump himself disputed the historians' statements:
"That was a prime site for river crossings. So, if people are crossing the river, and you happen to be in a civil war, I would say that people were shot — a lot of them."

"How would they know that?" Mr. Trump asked when told that local historians had called his plaque a fiction. "Were they there?"[1]
Trump said that "numerous historians" had told him the story of the River of Blood, though he later changed that to say they had spoken to "his people".[1]
Pause for a moment and consider his response: "How would they know that? Were they there?"

If that is a legitimate critique of these local historians, then obviously the same thing applies to Trump and to the alleged "numerous historians" who told "his people" about this event.

Then I wonder, who are these "numerous historians"? Did he ever produce a single one? All the actual historians other than the ones Trump claims to have heard from seem to be in agreement that no such event occurred.

His "reasoning" that there was a civil war going on at the time, and people crossed the river here and therefore a lot of people must have been shot here is also not at all how historians go about establishing facts.

So, Occam's razor seems to be that he just made it all up himself. Does it matter? Maybe not in the grand scheme of things, but it's another example of how he approaches things. It's a little bit like the fake Time magazine cover he had made and put up at his country clubs. He is willing to simply make up convenient "facts" out of thin air. Almost always these "facts" flatter him (or his properties in this case) in some way.

Is it possible that somebody else told him this story and he believed it? Maybe, but why? He has not been able to produce the alleged "historians" who told him or "his people" about it. So all we have is an unverifiable claim. Much more likely I think is that he made this one up by himself, out of whole cloth. To add a bit of a historical touch to his golf course.
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Old 21st August 2017, 01:01 AM   #2
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Good example of how Trump always confuses his uninformed and transparently self-serving loose impressions with facts.
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Old 21st August 2017, 01:28 AM   #3
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It sheds light on his thought processes. And the sort of lie that a normal lying politician wouldn't make as they know it would be easy to disprove.
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Old 21st August 2017, 01:46 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It sheds light on his thought processes. And the sort of lie that a normal lying politician wouldn't make as they know it would be easy to disprove.
It doesn't matter if it's easily disproven if his base loves the message. At this point truth is secondary to him, he can say anything as long as it sounds cool to his base. Truth could do him more harm than good by now.

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Old 21st August 2017, 02:49 AM   #5
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I think to 45 it does not actually matter if any given claim actually bears any truth or substance at all. The standard he goes by if whether or not it "works", in terms of making him look good.

I think this has been established many times, and the only reason for 45 to even dispute this allegation would be to, again, make him look better.

So at some point I suppose he entirely stopped thinking about the truth of his many claims and resorted exclusively to this standard.

To me, this more and more looks like a game. It's pretty close to a con man's game of make-believe, but he's playing it with remarkable consistency and, sadly, success.
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Old 21st August 2017, 03:01 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Tommok View Post
I think to 45 it does not actually matter if any given claim actually bears any truth or substance at all. The standard he goes by if whether or not it "works", in terms of making him look good.

I think this has been established many times, and the only reason for 45 to even dispute this allegation would be to, again, make him look better.

So at some point I suppose he entirely stopped thinking about the truth of his many claims and resorted exclusively to this standard.

To me, this more and more looks like a game. It's pretty close to a con man's game of make-believe, but he's playing it with remarkable consistency and, sadly, success.
Exactly. Whether it is true or not is not relevant. "Can I get away with it" is what he asks himself. He's basically saying that people he won't name told other people he won't name that it was true. There's no way to check that because we don't even know who these people are. So while it looks like total BS, it's hard to prove it definitively, because his excuse is unfalsifiable without more information, specifically who exactly was told what by whom. Then you could go to those people and ask them, but as it stands, he gave a vague excuse that can't be checked.
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Old 21st August 2017, 03:14 AM   #7
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interesting article on this

http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...t-brain-214658

Quote:
Our brains are particularly ill-equipped to deal with lies when they come not singly but in a constant stream, and Trump, we know, lies constantly, about matters as serious as the election results and as trivial as the tiles at Mar-a-Lago. (According to his butler,*Anthony Senecal, Trump once said the tiles in a nursery at the West Palm Beach club had been made by Walt Disney himself; when Senecal protested, Trump had a single response: “Who cares?”) When we are overwhelmed with false, or potentially false, statements, our brains pretty quickly become so overworked that we stop trying to sift through everything. It’s called cognitive load—our limited cognitive resources are overburdened. It doesn’t matter how implausible the statements are; throw out enough of them, and people will inevitably absorb some. Eventually, without quite realizing it, our brains just give up trying to figure out what is true.
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Old 21st August 2017, 04:02 AM   #8
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I feel this thread topic is a little too broad.
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Old 21st August 2017, 08:37 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It doesn't matter if it's easily disproven if his base loves the message. At this point truth is secondary to him, he can say anything as long as it sounds cool to his base. Truth could do him more harm than good by now.

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This is the same man who deliberately adds fictional floors to his buildings because a suite on the 25th floor generates more revenue than a suite on the 20th floor.
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Old 21st August 2017, 09:28 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This is the same man who deliberately adds fictional floors to his buildings because a suite on the 25th floor generates more revenue than a suite on the 20th floor.
That at least makes sense. Unlike the inauguration crowds
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Old 21st August 2017, 09:48 AM   #11
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Wasn't there a similar thread started several thousand lies ago?
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Old 21st August 2017, 10:34 AM   #12
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You are going to max out the servers with this thread......
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Old 21st August 2017, 02:28 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
So, Occam's razor seems to be that he just made it all up himself.
I suspect it was made up by local tourism interests long before Trump came on the scene. It's a plausible enough story, after all.
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Old 21st August 2017, 02:53 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I suspect it was made up by local tourism interests long before Trump came on the scene. It's a plausible enough story, after all.
There does not appear to be any evidence to support that. I think this is just idle speculation on your part.

No, I think Trump himself made it up.

As to the plausibility of the story, there isn't even a date attached. Actual historical events have dates attached.

You can see the plaque here:

http://www.loudountimes.com/images/u...Trump_sign.jpg

ETA: BTW, Trump is the local tourism interest here. He owns the golf course.
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Last edited by Puppycow; 21st August 2017 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 21st August 2017, 02:57 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It sheds light on his thought processes.
I think it's fair to say Trump does not critically evaluate the stories that he hears.

Quote:
And the sort of lie that a normal lying politician wouldn't make as they know it would be easy to disprove.
A good liar does their research. Trump just thinks he knows everything and spews out whatever fanciful and self-serving beliefs he's got. These are not conscious lies, they're just idiocies.

Trump's deliberate lies are defensive, about matters he's all too aware of, having been intimately involved for years. I can't imagine they'll stand up to Mueller's attentions.
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Old 21st August 2017, 03:12 PM   #16
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This is going to be a very long thread! Can the ISF servers handle it and the Immortality thread at the same time?

I suggest the opposite might be more efficient: list Trump's statements that are documented truths. The thread may end here

I have taken the same approach when I become upset by whatever Trump's latest moral failure is; instead of adding it to a long list of his other moral failures, I list Trump's personal qualities that are considered positives (i.e. ones that parents would wish for their children).. I haven't come up with one yet. Saves a lot of time.
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Old 21st August 2017, 03:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
There does not appear to be any evidence to support that. I think this is just idle speculation on your part.
It is, but plausible. There's plenty of passing trade by the riverside, hence diners and picnic areas. A Civil War myth would go down nicely, especially with a catchy title. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence : has anybody researched the history of the myth on the ground ? I'd be happy to do so for expenses.

Quote:
No, I think Trump himself made it up.
I don't think it's in him. Maybe the golf-course manager came up with it, but not Trump himself.

Quote:
As to the plausibility of the story, there isn't even a date attached. Actual historical events have dates attached.
Yes, but that's for the audience we're part of. The target audience associates the Potomac with the Civil War from schoolday memory, while being entirely vague as to the why, when and how.
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Old 21st August 2017, 04:12 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
It is, but plausible. There's plenty of passing trade by the riverside, hence diners and picnic areas. A Civil War myth would go down nicely, especially with a catchy title. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence : has anybody researched the history of the myth on the ground ? I'd be happy to do so for expenses.
Do you have any particular expertise in that sort of thing? I certainly don't have the resources to pay for your expenses. I'm just a working class guy trying to raise a family and make ends meet. Such a thing is conceivable, but so far there is no evidence that anyone other than Trump has made this particular claim.

Quote:
I don't think it's in him. Maybe the golf-course manager came up with it, but not Trump himself.
Why though? Why would it be more likely that the golf course manager made it up than Trump himself? I mentioned this above, but Trump in in fact a "local tourism interest" and the one who stands to benefit from this myth more than any other local tourism interest. The golf course manager gets paid the same amount either way.

Quote:
Yes, but that's for the audience we're part of. The target audience associates the Potomac with the Civil War from schoolday memory, while being entirely vague as to the why, when and how.
At least a subset of golfers are not complete morons. They've been to civil war battlefields. I've been to Gettysburg, and the commemorative plaques there tend to be very specific. If an event happened at a site, it will list the date and the specific military units involved and probably the ranking officer on each side.

Anyway, as far as motives go, nobody would have more motive to fabricate this than Trump himself. So, I'm just wondering why you find that explanation less plausible than somebody else making it up? Especially given his history of lying?
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Old 24th August 2017, 01:23 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
It is, but plausible. There's plenty of passing trade by the riverside, hence diners and picnic areas. A Civil War myth would go down nicely, especially with a catchy title. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence : has anybody researched the history of the myth on the ground ? I'd be happy to do so for expenses.

<snip>

Military action on the Potomac in the immediate environs of Washington D.C. during the Civil War are probably among the most well and thoroughly documented of anywhere in the country.

We aren't talking about ancient history here. We still have hard copies of newspapers of the time. We have a wealth of published diaries and memoirs. There is an embarrassment of riches in records that has been made available to the public essentially since the day the first shot of the war was fired.

There shouldn't be any need to do local "on the ground" research. If no references to this "River of Blood" phantasm can be uncovered in any contemporaneous documents then there isn't even anywhere to start looking on the ground.

Aside from Trump's bogus plaque I am not aware of any such claims having been made, much less any supported by any historical source.

It's a lie. Pure and simple.

Don't waste your time. Take a stroll through the Smithsonian instead if you're in the neighborhood.
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Old 24th August 2017, 01:53 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
This is going to be a very long thread! Can the ISF servers handle it and the Immortality thread at the same time?

I suggest the opposite might be more efficient: list Trump's statements that are documented truths. The thread may end here

I have taken the same approach when I become upset by whatever Trump's latest moral failure is; instead of adding it to a long list of his other moral failures, I list Trump's personal qualities that are considered positives (i.e. ones that parents would wish for their children).. I haven't come up with one yet. Saves a lot of time.
The only one I can think of is "born to rich parents".
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Old 24th August 2017, 07:53 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Military action on the Potomac in the immediate environs of Washington D.C. during the Civil War are probably among the most well and thoroughly documented of anywhere in the country.

We aren't talking about ancient history here. We still have hard copies of newspapers of the time. We have a wealth of published diaries and memoirs. There is an embarrassment of riches in records that has been made available to the public essentially since the day the first shot of the war was fired.

There shouldn't be any need to do local "on the ground" research. If no references to this "River of Blood" phantasm can be uncovered in any contemporaneous documents then there isn't even anywhere to start looking on the ground.

Aside from Trump's bogus plaque I am not aware of any such claims having been made, much less any supported by any historical source.

It's a lie. Pure and simple.

Don't waste your time. Take a stroll through the Smithsonian instead if you're in the neighborhood.
Especially the Museum of Black History and Culture!!!
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Old 24th August 2017, 10:21 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Military action on the Potomac in the immediate environs of Washington D.C. during the Civil War are probably among the most well and thoroughly documented of anywhere in the country.

We aren't talking about ancient history here. We still have hard copies of newspapers of the time. We have a wealth of published diaries and memoirs. There is an embarrassment of riches in records that has been made available to the public essentially since the day the first shot of the war was fired.

There shouldn't be any need to do local "on the ground" research. If no references to this "River of Blood" phantasm can be uncovered in any contemporaneous documents then there isn't even anywhere to start looking on the ground.

Aside from Trump's bogus plaque I am not aware of any such claims having been made, much less any supported by any historical source.

It's a lie. Pure and simple.

Don't waste your time. Take a stroll through the Smithsonian instead if you're in the neighborhood.
The irony is there is a real Civil War "River of Blood";

But's it on the Tenessee/Georgia border. It's called Chickamauge, which meant River Of Blood in the Cherokee language, and it lived up to it's name when it was the site of one of the Bloodiest Battles of the Civil War.
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Old 24th August 2017, 10:24 AM   #23
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A Trump de facto lie;
The White House stated Tuesday morning that Trump would not pardon Joe Apraiio at his now infamous Tuesday Night Rally,but Trump pretty much announced he is going to pardon Arapaio.Classic case of "equivocation"; lying but using semantics to appear not to be lying.
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Old 25th August 2017, 03:27 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The irony is there is a real Civil War "River of Blood";

But's it on the Tenessee/Georgia border. It's called Chickamauge, which meant River Of Blood in the Cherokee language, and it lived up to it's name when it was the site of one of the Bloodiest Battles of the Civil War.
For the curious: https://www.civilwar.org/learn/civil...es/chickamauga
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