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12th July 2017, 04:27 AM | #81 |
Fiend God
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"You must answer every single unsupported claim everywhere at all times, otherwise you're dishonest!" is not very convincing, Zig. He asked the question to you because he doesn't believe you. You can refuse to give him what he wants, but your chosen strategy here is ridiculous.
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12th July 2017, 04:41 AM | #82 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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12th July 2017, 05:01 AM | #83 |
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12th July 2017, 06:54 AM | #84 |
Graduate Poster
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So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts. |
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12th July 2017, 07:16 AM | #85 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I think your ability to read leaves a lot to be desired.
I know you haven't been around long but your claim that "common sense comments" don't fly on the ISF can only be chalked up to willful ignorance. That you always call the ones that don't support you view on gun nuttery is pretty obvious. Back to the point made: My point was to illustrate that the poster had left out an entire set of statistical facts that rendered their point moot. Statistically speaking my common sense statement is true. I understand that you may be unable to grasp how that could be possible but it is. The point was this: There is no way of knowing how many times the drawing of a gun diffused a situation and there is no way of knowing how many times guns were drawn inappropriately but both are irrelevant to the discussion so we can disregard them. Carry on. |
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12th July 2017, 07:17 AM | #86 |
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12th July 2017, 07:24 AM | #87 |
Fiend God
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Ooh! By all means: what are my views on gun nuttery? Do you even know where I stand on the topic?
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12th July 2017, 07:39 AM | #88 |
Penultimate Amazing
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There is a whole science behind it and it often causes a huge issue for people who like 1-1 cause and effect correlations. It isn't 100% accurate but in large populations it is statistically significant. Vegas was built on knowing what will happen in alternate realities. Understanding the science gives you the ability to have people believe billion dollar casinos are built by people breaking even and they better hurry back to Vegas so they can break even again.
Gun owners like to throw out examples of one "law abiding citizen" and extrapolate that into 55 million "law abiding citizens" which serves their purpose but is completely inaccurate. Science says the most accurate way to deal with the issue is to see it as 55 million gun owners, 3% of whom own an average of 17 guns. The outcry from "law abiding citizens" arises when they are told what conclusions the science leads to. Then they double down on the one "law abiding citizen" fallacy. |
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12th July 2017, 07:45 AM | #89 |
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Sure, but a host of factors may come into play. You can say what happened before the change, but you can't say with any amount of certainty what would've happened had the change not occured. That's the distinction I'm making. Maybe you think it's a distinction without a difference. Maybe it is. I just thought it was important to point out. YMMV.
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12th July 2017, 07:48 AM | #90 |
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It is irrelevant to the discussion so I couldn't care less.
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12th July 2017, 07:51 AM | #91 |
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12th July 2017, 07:55 AM | #92 |
Philosopher
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Given the "study" was about concealed carriers, how about this:
............................ http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the...riminals-17355 there were about 103 crimes per hundred thousand officers,” the report reads. “For the U.S. population as a whole, the crime rate was 37 times higher—3,813 per hundred thousand people.” permit holders are convicted of misdemeanors and felonies at less than a sixth the rate for police officers,” the report says. “Among police, firearms violations occur at a rate of 16.5 per 100,000 officers. Among permit holders in Florida and Texas, the rate is only 2.4 per 100,000.10. That is just one-seventh*of the rate for police officers. .................................. So, it isn't ccw holders getting involved in crime. Which means that any increase in crime in those states must be due to other factors than concealed carry. |
12th July 2017, 07:55 AM | #93 |
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12th July 2017, 08:00 AM | #94 |
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12th July 2017, 08:18 AM | #95 |
Pi
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If this holds then one can never, ever say if a thing (any thing at all) is a success because one can just site the above applied to any measurement ever and state "You don't know what would have happened if..."
It essentially means you have no method of evaluating any change to anything, anywhere. |
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12th July 2017, 08:53 AM | #96 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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12th July 2017, 08:57 AM | #97 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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12th July 2017, 08:58 AM | #98 |
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12th July 2017, 09:01 AM | #99 |
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No, it just means you can’t take two groups of people suffering from X, give one of the groups homeopathic remedies and if they do slightly better than the ‘control’, use it as proof of homeopathy working.
For the umpteenth time: - It isn’t concealed carriers committing crimes So what is the mechanism whereby you can link increased concealed carry to increased crime? |
12th July 2017, 09:09 AM | #101 |
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12th July 2017, 09:16 AM | #102 |
Pi
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Because if and
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Then you have no way of evaluating anything at all, ever. Every time someone says 'this worked' or 'this didn't work', the reply can be 'you have no way of knowing that, you can't know if it would have happened anyway' and the discussion is over. Every single time. Drink driving laws lower driving driving? could have happened anyway Instituting clinical standards in medicine improves results? - could have happened anyway. Enforcing seat belt laws reduces road fatalities? - could have happened anyway. You can do this, literally, every single time - complain that the experiment cannot be run again with different variables so declare that results to be not at all informative.
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12th July 2017, 09:23 AM | #103 |
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12th July 2017, 09:27 AM | #104 |
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12th July 2017, 09:35 AM | #106 |
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12th July 2017, 09:57 AM | #108 |
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12th July 2017, 10:47 AM | #109 |
Potsing Whiled Runk
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Hi there -
Ordinary Joe who has received death threats. What makes Bloomberg's life more important than mine? It isn't of course. I'm sure he'd disagree though. The security detail is blatant hypocrisy. He benefits from the protection of concealed weapons while claiming that no other citizens should be allowed to carry. That's like a staunch environmentalist trying to end private ownership of automobiles while preaching it from the back of a limo. |
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12th July 2017, 12:22 PM | #110 |
Orthogonal Vector
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The thing is that isn't data that the federal executive has ever had. This is all information they have, are legally required to have but can not legally put into a computer.
Why not just make all guns totally untrackable, outlaw serial numbers and ban gun stores from keeping records. Simple. |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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12th July 2017, 01:50 PM | #111 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Put gun data on a par with vote data? No problem from me.
Want to keep track of those entitled to own a gun? Then keep track of whether Achmed Gomez is entitled to vote. Or let ever resident own a gun, let every resident vote. I think that IS a constitutional equivalence. Or, secret ballot, secret gun ownership. New catch phrase- Make Ballots as hard to get as guns! |
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Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept. |
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12th July 2017, 01:53 PM | #112 |
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Subsequent thought- Kooks can't own guns, can they vote? Shouldn't "being a hazard to yourself and others" preclude voting?
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Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept. |
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12th July 2017, 04:59 PM | #113 |
Observer of Phenomena
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Yep. This thread is going pretty much exactly how I expected it to.
Funny how some people are all about the science unless it goes against their ideology. Then suddenly good science, data and evidence are insufficient, there are confounding factors, the person reporting the evidence is blind, another reality, here are some anecdotes. |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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12th July 2017, 05:00 PM | #114 |
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So take that quantum equation and recalculate the wave by a factor of hoopty doo! The answer is not my problem, it's yours. Three Word Story Wisdom |
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12th July 2017, 05:03 PM | #115 |
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"Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan |
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12th July 2017, 06:29 PM | #116 |
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I am biased, as I suppose many people would be who had benefited from the action of a "good guy with a gun". Given my experience, which is admittedly anecdotal and not statistically significant (although very significant to me personally), i do not find the study cited in the OP to be terribly persuasive.
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I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 - I'll miss Tim. Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy |
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12th July 2017, 06:38 PM | #117 |
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Naive as it sounds, I think we can find rational middle-ground. The pro-gun people should just concede that an increase in firearm ownership probably leads to more fatalities, and the pro-gun control people should just shut the **** up or risk becoming one of their vaunted statistics.
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Cain: Don't be a homo. Diablo: What's that supposed to mean? Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value. |
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12th July 2017, 06:53 PM | #118 |
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The science here seems to assume that CCW should be a deterrent, and since it is not, it should be done away with. As Giz pointed out, the CCW's were not the criminals in the first place, so there is no reason to conclude that a gangbanger will be more or less violent regarding carry laws. They just give the law-abiding a fighting chance when the bad guy points the gun (which the bad guy does regardless of law).
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12th July 2017, 08:43 PM | #119 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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12th July 2017, 09:33 PM | #120 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Really? I can think of a ton of groups who didn't kill 722 people between 2007 and 2015. (The count is undoubtedly higher but laws prevent accurate reporting of CCW crime rates.)
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/o...ody-count.html |
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