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Tags LGBT issues , London incidents , protest incidents , transgender issues

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Old 26th September 2018, 02:19 PM   #1481
zooterkin
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
They are different people with different needs taking different journeys.
Yes, which is the problem. For those people genuinely transitioning, whether just in dress or through surgery, and all points between, simply being accepted as what they see themselves is the ideal option. The difficulty comes when other people apparently abuse that for their own ends. It then becomes messy when the latter group is portrayed as representing all people claiming to be trans, and arguments against the abuse become taken as being arguments against trans people.
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Old 26th September 2018, 07:13 PM   #1482
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Yes, which is the problem. For those people genuinely transitioning, whether just in dress or through surgery, and all points between, simply being accepted as what they see themselves is the ideal option. The difficulty comes when other people apparently abuse that for their own ends. It then becomes messy when the latter group is portrayed as representing all people claiming to be trans, and arguments against the abuse become taken as being arguments against trans people.

I agree.

The thing is, when that latter group is portrayed as representing all trans then the arguments are arguments against trans people.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 01:38 PM   #1483
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Activists have put a Ballot Question up for vote in the upcoming November elections in Massachusetts. The stated goal (according to the sponsor's argument published in the Information for Voters booklet distributed to voters by the Secretary of the Commonwealth's office) is to "prevent men from entering women's bathrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, and intimate spaces."

What does the measure actually call for? Perhaps, legal protection for officials and business owners who exclude male-appearing individuals or known sex offenders from women's intimate spaces based on reasonable safety concerns, which would be congruent with the measure's stated aims?

Of course not. It calls for the repeal of the entire provision for gender identity non-discrimination that's currently in Massachusetts state law.

This being Massachusetts, the ballot measure won't come close to passing. But the actual agenda of its sponsors is clear.
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Old 3rd October 2018, 03:34 AM   #1484
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Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...49aca6fbe3.jpg

Edited by Agatha:  Image tags removed as there is a rule 10 violation in the picture
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Old 3rd October 2018, 04:10 AM   #1485
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Some idiot's got an opinion on the internet! Oppression! Erasure! Help!
Someone stop them!
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Old 3rd October 2018, 05:04 AM   #1486
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Some idiot's got an opinion on the internet! Oppression! Erasure! Help!
Someone stop them!
Idiots opinions on the internet got a famous director fired from a successful series. We now have to take it seriously as there are real consequences. It's no longer about what is rational, but about who had the loudest whine.

Don't try and change the rules of the game then complain when people follow then. The hate mob has power now, regardless of numbers or logic, but hey, some guys who probably did some shady **** were hit by it, so ....winning?
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Old 3rd October 2018, 05:24 AM   #1487
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Wouldn't justifying discrimination against trans people based on a loud extremist opinion on the internet be just as stupid as adopting the notion that only transwomen can speak for women based on a loud extremist opinion on the internet?
Looks like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

The solution is not to base corporate or legislative decisions on Twitter wars, instead of cherrypicking the right kind of cyber boogeyman to justify your own bias.
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Old 4th October 2018, 06:59 AM   #1488
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Idiots opinions on the internet got a famous director fired from a successful series.

I seriously doubt that's true. Care to provide a citation?
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Old 4th October 2018, 07:09 AM   #1489
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Some idiot's got an opinion on the internet! Oppression! Erasure! Help!
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Old 4th October 2018, 07:18 AM   #1490
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Stop spamming, Joe!
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Old 6th October 2018, 06:04 PM   #1491
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...49aca6fbe3.jpg

Edited by Agatha:  Image tags removed as there is a rule 10 violation in the picture
Whenever somone says something stupid on the internet, you can declare that to be representative of everyone who disagrees with you.

It's like a law, or something.
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Old 18th October 2018, 12:07 AM   #1492
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The Grauniad attempts to inject some reason into the increasingly polarised debate. The Guardian view on the Gender Recognition Act: where rights collide

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rights-collide
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Old 14th November 2018, 12:17 PM   #1493
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An entertaining and amusing précis of how transgender activist extremism blossomed in UK, 2013-2018:

THE ANNALS OF THE TERF-WARS

Quote:
Prologue: A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away…

Transsexual women: We just want some basic human rights.

Women: Okay.

Transsexual women: We have this condition called gender dysphoria and it’s really painful and we need to transition to live as the other sex because it’s the treatment for the dysphoria.

Women: Yeah, that sounds tough. Okay, if that’s what you need to do.

Transsexual women: We’d like you to treat us as women.

Most women: Um, okay. Sure, we can do that if that helps.
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Old Yesterday, 04:14 PM   #1494
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
An entertaining and amusing précis of how transgender activist extremism blossomed in UK, 2013-2018:

THE ANNALS OF THE TERF-WARS
Presenting someone else's straw-man argument you found on a wordpress blog has to be a new lowpoint?
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Old Today, 02:23 AM   #1495
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It's a bit long but it's spot on the nail and witty with it.

I've stopped being surprised by men leaping to support men who want to occupy women's spaces and erase the fundamental definition of women though. Burn the witch.
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Old Today, 06:29 AM   #1496
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It's a brave new world now and this gynocentric cis oppression has to join white supremacism on the trash heap of history.
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Old Today, 08:56 AM   #1497
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Here's a Twitter thread giving one woman's take on the attitude of a lot of the men to all this.

https://twitter.com/radicalhag/statu...39470189486081
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Old Today, 09:43 AM   #1498
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I might be hopelessly naive or something, but why is all of this framed as a war of the sexes?
These Twitter folks (and I guess, the forum members who repost them without comment) seemlessly move from 'People who insist I should be attracted to their penis are ********' to 'All trans women are male infiltrators playing a long con to undermine womanhood and anyone who supports them is an agent of the Patriarchy'.
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Old Today, 12:01 PM   #1499
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's a bit long but it's spot on the nail and witty with it.

I've stopped being surprised by men leaping to support men who want to occupy women's spaces and erase the fundamental definition of women though. Burn the witch.

It was interesting to read, and an informative perspective on the social background of the incident described in the OP.

But I'm having trouble connecting it to anything. It's fascinating stuff, but it's like reading about the intricate history of a computer game world. None of it seems real. It might be that things are very different in the UK. But I think it's more likely that things are just very different on the Internet.

Case in point: As I mentioned upthread, there was a statewide referendum here in Massachusetts earlier this month. The question was whether or not to keep in effect an already existing law that went into effect in 2016.

The law adds (spoiler: I'm using the present tense because as I expected, the public voted overwhelmingly in favor of keeping it) gender identity to the list of prohibited grounds for discrimination in places of public accommodation, resort, or amusement. (Discrimination based on gender identity in employment, education, housing, and other areas was already prohibited by other state laws.)

The law also directs the state Attorney General to issue regulations or guidance on referring for legal action any person who asserts gender identity for an improper purpose.

How does that last part actually work in practice, against for instance a male pervert who falsely claims a female gender identity to get access to a girls' locker room? We don't really know, because there haven't been any actual incidents yet.

Let me recap all that. There haven't been any actual incidents yet. Law in effect 2016. Current year (*checks calendar*) 2018.

The sponsors of the repeal effort were some Christian organization with the word Family in their name, and the rationale they provided amounted to keeping girls safe from perverts in bathrooms. All signs pointed to their agenda being anti-trans, not in any way anti-patriarchy or pro-feminism. Opponents of the repeal argued that it protects a vulnerable portion of the population from discrimination, which is good, and that it hadn't caused any problems over two years so far, so why repeal it?

There was no public support of recall from any organized group of feminists—traditional, radical, intersectional, neo-post-structuralist, or otherwise. Let alone a ground swell of support from women in general. No one on either side came forth with any arguments whatsoever based on issues of misogyny, privilege, patriarchal oppression, women's identity, bio-essentialism, burning witches, anyone being or not being a TERF, anyone being or not being erased, or any of the other arcane intrigue described in the "Annals."

Around here, if people demand women born women should be called "cis women" or "menstruators," we roll our eyes and ignore them. If a political party appoints an under-qualified trans women as "women's officer" we read that as a weird choice of the person in charge of propaganda to get women to vote for that party, and ignore it. When people speak of the public places they go to expel waste products from their bodies as if they were sanctuaries of sacred group-identity-ness, we smile and back away a little. (Except those of us in Boston, who instead say, "I've heard of such places but never seen one. I always have to hold it til I get home.")

The idea that there's a whole population of male-supremacist "dudebros" who identify with and support trans women on the basis of, "It's not fair I can't go into that Ladies room and peek, but it makes me feel better knowing at least he can... I mean *wink* she can!"—and that they're the actual impetus behind the trans rights movement—is just incredible. An outrageous fantasy light years away from even aspiring to plausibility.
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Old Today, 12:32 PM   #1500
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
There was no public support of recall from any organized group of feminists—traditional, radical, intersectional, neo-post-structuralist, or otherwise. Let alone a ground swell of support from women in general. No one on either side came forth with any arguments whatsoever based on issues of misogyny, privilege, patriarchal oppression, women's identity, bio-essentialism, burning witches, anyone being or not being a TERF, anyone being or not being erased, or any of the other arcane intrigue described in the "Annals."

And that's the problem, it's not women in general who are against this, it's not even feminists in general. It's a tiny handful of extremists and conspiracy theorists who for some reason have aligned themselves with the extremists of the religious right, and who preach nearly the exact same worldview when it comes to transpeople. It's also, as I've seen, almost exclusively white people as well.

Every time you want to get an idea of how a group is treating or plans to treat those they define as "undesirables", look at the rhetoric they engage in regarding said "undesirables". They will inevitably assert that the marginalized group is engaged in the sorts of practices and worldview that they themselves are guilty of. They assert that the existence of transpeople is "erasing" the existence of lesbians, when it in fact it's the radicals who are trying to erase the existence of transpeople. They whinge about transpeople conspiring with the patriarchy against them, while they're conspiring with the religious right (about as close to their patriarchy boogeyman as can exist in the real world) to outlaw transpeople and remove their civil rights. They complain about transpeople causing problems for them, while they publicly harass and marginalize transpeople, as exemplified by the incident in the OP.

It's a technique that they've picked up from the religious right, along with the scapegoating and demonization of minorities tactics so popular amongst fascists and other reactionaries.
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