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Old 11th August 2022, 09:32 AM   #41
Lplus
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
Did you click the first link I posted? Because it seems that the Ďtestsí did not use self drive either.

While the second link has multiple videos showing Tesla FSD avoiding actual miniature humans.
I wasn't referring to the tests at all, Just giving my view how driver aids should be used; to augment your own abilities, not to replace them.
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Old 11th August 2022, 11:26 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
I wasn't referring to the tests at all, Just giving my view how driver aids should be used; to augment your own abilities, not to replace them.
I think it really depends what one means by augment. Leaping in to hit the breaks for you, or beep at you or whatever is one thing. Doing the driving for you for three hours and then still having an expectation that you are attentively waiting to take back control at a moments notice is the issue for me. That's just a wilful fantasy to shift liability.
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Old 11th August 2022, 12:32 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
I have a Tesla, now admittedly, I don't have FSD (full self drive package), but once I was turning a corner and someone stepped in front of the car. My Tesla emitted a slew of alarms and immediately slammed on the brakes.

As well, The 'test' may not have been on the 'up and up'.
https://electrek.co/2022/08/10/tesla...never-engaged/


And this person performed their own test, which shows the car actively stopping, slowing, or driving around a cardboard child.

https://twitter.com/tesladriver2022/...6SgsmIhzo_fn1Q

Bwahahaha! That's hilarious! The O'Dowd guy, who labels himself " the world's leading expert in creating software that never fails and can't be hacked" doesn't realize that the reason the screen is black and the CD/DVD drawer won't open is because the ******* computer is turned off!

Now I don't claim to be some software expert, but I can tell you that when I am testing a piece of software, I make sure that I understand how it works and what all the on screen indications are, and what they mean, before I start testing! These idiots didn't even realize that the screen was indicating the FSD wasn't turned on during the test!

ETA: FSD is not dissimilar to an aircraft autopilot. Just because you have pressed the "Autopilot engage" button doesn't mean the autopilot will always engage. The flight configuration has to be correct, or at least, within the parameters that will allow it to engage. Usually, there will be an audible warning and a clear indication on the Flight Director Indicator that the autopilot has not engaged. Perhaps Tesla ought to think about having a clear audible warning - if FSD does not engage when you press the button?
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Old 11th August 2022, 12:40 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I think it really depends what one means by augment. Leaping in to hit the breaks for you, or beep at you or whatever is one thing. Doing the driving for you for three hours and then still having an expectation that you are attentively waiting to take back control at a moments notice is the issue for me. That's just a wilful fantasy to shift liability.
Agreed. That's certainly my view of augment.
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Old 11th August 2022, 01:09 PM   #45
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This Twitter post sums it up for me...
Jeremy Lyman
"Lets hire a professional driver to not turn the system on, hold the accelerator, and violate the terms of use."
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Old 11th August 2022, 03:35 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
This Twitter post sums it up for me...
Jeremy Lyman
"Lets hire a professional driver to not turn the system on, hold the accelerator, and violate the terms of use."
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gzfu91csfo...-ToU.png?raw=1
??? Did he use those words? Damned if I can find them and your quote is not an active link to a tweet or anything else.
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Old 11th August 2022, 04:06 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
??? Did he use those words? Damned if I can find them and your quote is not an active link to a tweet or anything else.
Those exact words

https://twitter.com/jeadly/status/15...MSjhYic9fiMOHg

IMO, Dan O'Dowd's Dawn Project knew exactly what they were doing.

https://electrek.co/2022/08/10/tesla...never-engaged/
"The Dawn Projectís PR team didnít respond when I showed them a screenshot of their own video showing that FSD Beta was not engaged, and they didnít respond when I asked if they still planned on running the ad, which already has over 240,000 hits on Youtube since being posted yesterday (and for which comments have been turned off), and many more on broadcast television.

Update: The Dawn Project has since released additional footage that doesnít appear in its ad where we can see that they were able to activate FSD, however, the footage is inconsistent with the results published about the test and in the ad.

For example, in the first run, we can see that FSD sends an alert to grab the wheel well before the point of impact and the impact happens under 20 mph, which is inconsistent with the results claiming that impact happened at 24, 27, and 25 mph"
Also, it is very, very suspicious that these so called expert professionals set up and conducted a test which they knew the results were going to be published, using a hand-held, potato quality (low-res) video of the display, making it impossible for anyone not familiar with Tesla screens to see and identify any of the on-screen indications. Real professional testers would have set up a properly mounted 4K fixed camera inside the cabin to get clear, steady video of the display. FFS, even Mythbusters would have done that!!!

Additionally, we can add to this the fact that the tests were done on a closed track (Willow Springs International Raceway in Rosamond, California) despite the fact that Tesla FSD Beta still relies on map data. These so-called software experts HAD to have known this.

The more I look at this, the more I think this test was deliberately set up to fail, and probably for political reasons (Dan O'Dowd is running for the California Senate!
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Old 11th August 2022, 04:13 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Those exact words

https://twitter.com/jeadly/status/15...MSjhYic9fiMOHg

IMO, Dan O'Dowd's Dawn Project knew exactly what they were doing.

https://electrek.co/2022/08/10/tesla...never-engaged/
"The Dawn Projectís PR team didnít respond when I showed them a screenshot of their own video showing that FSD Beta was not engaged, and they didnít respond when I asked if they still planned on running the ad, which already has over 240,000 hits on Youtube since being posted yesterday (and for which comments have been turned off), and many more on broadcast television.

Update: The Dawn Project has since released additional footage that doesnít appear in its ad where we can see that they were able to activate FSD, however, the footage is inconsistent with the results published about the test and in the ad.

For example, in the first run, we can see that FSD sends an alert to grab the wheel well before the point of impact and the impact happens under 20 mph, which is inconsistent with the results claiming that impact happened at 24, 27, and 25 mph"
Also, it is very, very suspicious that these so called expert professionals set up and conducted a test which they knew the results were going to be published, using a hand-held, potato quality (low-res) video of the display, making it impossible for anyone not familiar with Tesla screens to see and identify any of the on-screen indications. Real professional testers would have set up a properly mounted 4K fixed camera inside the cabin to get clear, steady video of the display. FFS, even Mythbusters would have done that!!!

Additionally, we can add to this the fact that the tests were done on a closed track (Willow Springs International Raceway in Rosamond, California) despite the fact that Tesla FSD Beta still relies on map data. These so-called software experts HAD to have known this.

The more I look at this, the more I think this test was deliberately set up to fail, and probably for political reasons (Dan O'Dowd is running for the California Senate!
He wants Tesla FSD shut off, and removed from the road. Likely because he's working on similar software.

That said, the FSD Beta testers know that FSD is weird, and tends to behave oddly at times (as the article puts it, FSD drives like a 14 year old who just learned how, and who occasionally does heavy drugs). Who in their right mind is going to allow their car to just plow into a child?
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Old 11th August 2022, 04:16 PM   #49
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Even the title of this thread is dishonest, since the tech is still in beta, and is being tested right now exactly to find these kinds of deficiencies so they can be fixed.
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Old 11th August 2022, 05:29 PM   #50
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TBH, I'm not entirely sure why is it even important for the software that it's a child. Shouldn't it try to brake or avoid ANY obstacle in its path, before it's ready?

I mean, for example, I mentioned recently in another thread how someone at the city hall decided to give a street name to the path in the middle of a larger parking lot nearby. If you just go by Google maps where it says it's a street and only avoiding humans, you might run into some steel posts in the middle of that "road" designed precisely to not allow every car through. Shouldn't the software also brake for that?

And I mean, what confuses me is more like, why does it matter at all what it looks like. You're not limited to having one camera, so you can just determine the distance to anything whatsoever. I mean, you know, like we do with binocular vision. Does it really matter if it's a child or a bollard or a boar or a railway barrier or a box someone was trying to load into a U-Haul truck or whatever? (Seriously, around here boars occasionally get into the suburbs from the nearby woods.) If it can triangulate that there's SOMETHING in the road, does it really matter what it is?
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Old 11th August 2022, 05:35 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
TBH, I'm not entirely sure why is it even important for the software that it's a child. Shouldn't it try to brake or avoid ANY obstacle in its path, before it's ready?
It's important to the detractor. Calling out children is a naked appeal to emotion.
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Old 11th August 2022, 05:38 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's important to the detractor. Calling out children is a naked appeal to emotion.
Yeah, that probably makes the most sense. Then again, it could be a real problem with certain shapes. I haven't really studied the issue, so I wouldn't know.
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Old 11th August 2022, 05:49 PM   #53
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So... I'm actually being a little harsh.

Harnessing the power of emotion to inspire caution in drivers is a basic part of driver's ed. The scenario of a child running into the street and getting hit by an inattentive driver is a stock trope.

And realistically, you're not perhaps as worried about grown-ass adults suddenly materializing in front of your car. Since they're less likely to do that. And there aren't a lot of unseen surprises on a freeway. Yes, freeway speeds make everything more dangerous, but you have to be seriously inattentive to not notice impeding doom in time to mitigate it with good driving.

It's when you're rolling through a residential neighborhood, probably somewhat faster than the posted speed, that tragedy looms. The worst kind of tragedy: Running over someone's child.

So, yeah. When talking about making cars truly self-driving - making them better drivers, even, than most humans - one of the most important questions from a humanitarian perspective is always going to be, "what does the car do when a little child runs into the street?"

It's a valid question, and reporting on whether the tech is there yet is a valid effort.
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Old 11th August 2022, 08:08 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Even the title of this thread is dishonest, since the tech is still in beta, and is being tested right now exactly to find these kinds of deficiencies so they can be fixed.
Indeed!

I would expect "the world's leading expert in creating software that never fails and can't be hacked"
to know what "beta testing" is!
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Old 11th August 2022, 08:12 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
TBH, I'm not entirely sure why is it even important for the software that it's a child. Shouldn't it try to brake or avoid ANY obstacle in its path, before it's ready?
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's important to the detractor. Calling out children is a naked appeal to emotion.
Yup... for dramatic effect? Oh please, won't somebody think of the children?
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Old 12th August 2022, 01:12 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
He wants Tesla FSD shut off, and removed from the road. Likely because he's working on similar software.

That said, the FSD Beta testers know that FSD is weird, and tends to behave oddly at times (as the article puts it, FSD drives like a 14 year old who just learned how, and who occasionally does heavy drugs). Who in their right mind is going to allow their car to just plow into a child?
Personally, I want Tesla FSD shut off because it isn't FSD. If it were by some miracle capable of FSD in all circumstances, even in restricted circumstances such as freeways with specially maintained and logically applied markings, then I'd not be objecting to it. But it isn't and it shouldn't be pushed as being such by Tesla (for all the caution notes in the small print.) Move fast and break things wasn't intended to involve people.

And for the avoidence of doubt, that goes for any other company pushing their driver aids as self driving.
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