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Old 1st June 2022, 07:15 PM   #1
dudalb
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Musk is a huge jerk. Period.

https://www.chron.com/business/artic...y-17212471.php

If the work gets done, why should Musk be obbsessed about whether it is done at home or not?
He is showing his true colors: A petty tyrant with an inflated vision of himself as some kind of messiah.
Yes, he is to be praised for Tesla. Yes, I fully support what he is doing with Space X.
But don't expect me to sign off on this "Musk is a Tony Stark level Genius who can do no wrong" crap you hear from his personality cult.
Over the past few week, he seems to be going off the rails. He has tried to keep apolitical for the most part, but now his sharp bent to the far right is apparent.
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Old 1st June 2022, 07:56 PM   #2
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:09 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
https://www.chron.com/business/artic...y-17212471.php

If the work gets done, why should Musk be obbsessed about whether it is done at home or not?
But he doesn't think it is getting done
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:34 PM   #4
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My friend works there and showed me the email earlier today. Didn't realize it was news too. I didn't read it all.

He hates it there. He is an electrician but get tasked to do all kinds of different things. He makes over 100k a year for the first time in his life and all he does is complain about the place. Broken promises, etc, and he is a team player and very hard worker. It takes a lot for him to complain about anything...to a fault in my opinion, and yet he hates his job.
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:38 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
But he doesn't think it is getting done
he does.
all he wants is some news that will raise the stock price he tanked.
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:42 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
My friend works there and showed me the email earlier today. Didn't realize it was news too. I didn't read it all.

He hates it there. He is an electrician but get tasked to do all kinds of different things. He makes over 100k a year for the first time in his life and all he does is complain about the place. Broken promises, etc, and he is a team player and very hard worker. It takes a lot for him to complain about anything...to a fault in my opinion, and yet he hates his job.
Why does he hate getting asked to do different things?
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Old 1st June 2022, 08:59 PM   #7
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For the first two weeks of the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad Spring semester, our campus was remote, then we returned to in-person instruction. On the mid-terms, students performed poorly overall, but especially on material covered in those first two weeks, probably because they weren't paying attention and taking notes (I have identical exam questions going back over a decade for comparison purposes). In courses with pre-reqs, students had significant gaps in their knowledge. Naturally, many now prefer online classes, and bubble-headed administrators want to be as accommodating as possible to consumer demand (though this is scrupulously framed in the language of "equity").

I don't see why for-profit workplaces would insist on bringing people in if they believed employees were equally productive from home. Businesses would save on office space, furniture, and employee theft (among other things). They could probably pay even slightly lower salaries as employees would save on commutes. Of course, it's perfectly possible that some businesses are mistaken about the advantages of working in person, but the market should sort that out over time. I imagine companies will be more flexible in the future, but I'd be surprised if work-from-home were as productive in general. I'm also wary of self-assessments ("I'm MOAR productive from home").

Everybody wants win-win, but life often involves painful trade-offs.
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Old 1st June 2022, 09:27 PM   #8
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
For the first two weeks of the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad Spring semester, our campus was remote, then we returned to in-person instruction. On the mid-terms, students performed poorly overall, but especially on material covered in those first two weeks, probably because they weren't paying attention and taking notes (I have identical exam questions going back over a decade for comparison purposes). In courses with pre-reqs, students had significant gaps in their knowledge. Naturally, many now prefer online classes, and bubble-headed administrators want to be as accommodating as possible to consumer demand (though this is scrupulously framed in the language of "equity").

I don't see why for-profit workplaces would insist on bringing people in if they believed employees were equally productive from home. Businesses would save on office space, furniture, and employee theft (among other things). They could probably pay even slightly lower salaries as employees would save on commutes. Of course, it's perfectly possible that some businesses are mistaken about the advantages of working in person, but the market should sort that out over time. I imagine companies will be more flexible in the future, but I'd be surprised if work-from-home were as productive in general. I'm also wary of self-assessments ("I'm MOAR productive from home").

Everybody wants win-win, but life often involves painful trade-offs.
there is an obvious reason: when employees self-manage their work, it shows how much bloat there is in Middle Management.
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Old 1st June 2022, 09:49 PM   #9
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On the upside, not meeting everyone at the office even once a week
definitely has gone viral But as one article put it, there's a downside.
"We learned that there was a lot of alcohol consumption, eating, pot
smoking, and watching porn while quarantined."
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Old 1st June 2022, 11:26 PM   #10
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Getting smarter unknowns to do all your work for as little as possible is definitely a time-tested winning formula, and in that Musk is master. Tapping into decades of results from publicly-financed efforts for free and calling it an "achievement" for private enterprise is also a nice trick, kind of like going to a US Geological Survey office just before announcing a "major mining discovery". Management by fear has been around since the pharaohs, so not much innovation there, either.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 12:39 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
there is an obvious reason: when employees self-manage their work, it shows how much bloat there is in Middle Management.
Except this directive is coming from the senior-most person at the company and it's aimed at precisely those supervisors, who he charges have an even greater responsibility to be present. Why isn't Musk interested in shedding busybodies who are not adding to his bottom line? I would be happy to see this tweeting celebrity CEO fail.

Putting aside company profits, there are larger social costs in play. People are not forging as many friendships and personal connections. What people want and what they need sometimes diverge. Jonathan Haidt likes to say you can present a person with two options, where 1) consistently makes people happier and more satisfied, but 2) will bring more popularity and attention. People chose 2). A similar story plays out when people are given the option of healthy food vs. junk food.

I attended a funeral on Saturday. I was so pissed when the pastor/hustler spoke to the people on the livestream. I didn't know it was streaming! I'm such a sucker.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 02:18 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why does he hate getting asked to do different things?
Because he is a human being.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 04:24 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
My friend works there and showed me the email earlier today. Didn't realize it was news too. I didn't read it all.

He hates it there. He is an electrician but get tasked to do all kinds of different things. He makes over 100k a year for the first time in his life and all he does is complain about the place. Broken promises, etc, and he is a team player and very hard worker. It takes a lot for him to complain about anything...to a fault in my opinion, and yet he hates his job.
This description of your friend, and Elon Musk's own description of what he wants his workers to do (Be in the office for a *minimum* of 40 hours, and be visible to co-workers) is almost a perfect illustration of what David Graeber called "Bull **** Jobs". Link

Quote:
In ******** Jobs, American anthropologist David Graeber posits that the productivity benefits of automation have not led to a 15-hour workweek, as predicted by economist John Maynard Keynes in 1930, but instead to "******** jobs": "a form of paid employment that is so completely pointless, unnecessary, or pernicious that even the employee cannot justify its existence even though, as part of the conditions of employment, the employee feels obliged to pretend that this is not the case." While these jobs can offer good compensation and ample free time, Graeber holds that the pointlessness of the work grates at their humanity and creates a "profound psychological violence".
Quote:
The author contends that more than half of societal work is pointless, both large parts of some jobs and, as he describes, five types of entirely pointless jobs:
  1. flunkies, who serve to make their superiors feel important, e.g., receptionists, administrative assistants, door attendants, store greeters, makers of websites whose sites neglect ease of use and speed for looks;
  1. goons, who act to harm or deceive others on behalf of their employer, e.g., lobbyists, corporate lawyers, telemarketers, public relations specialists, community managers;
  1. duct tapers, who temporarily fix problems that could be fixed permanently, e.g., programmers repairing bloated code, airline desk staff who calm passengers whose bags do not arrive;
  1. box tickers, who create the appearance that something useful is being done when it is not, e.g., survey administrators, in-house magazine journalists, corporate compliance officers, quality service managers;
  1. taskmasters, who create extra work for those who do not need it, e.g., middle management, leadership professionals
Graeber addresses a number of points about how this kind of bloat is often expected or criticized in the public industry, but produces example after example of exactly the same thing occurring in the private sector, maybe even to a greater extent, with the point being that even if it occurs in the public sector, there is usually no tyrants or taskmasters there to stop people from indulging their own interests. People like Elon Musk clearly jealously demand their workers visibly use up their time that he is paying for, which means the incentive is for his workers to look busy while onsite rather than, say, finish their work at home and spend time with their kids.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:15 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Because he is a human being.
Which is why he would want new experiences
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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:16 AM   #15
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Musk has been playing pretend businessman and tech genius for years. The one thing he is genuinely good at is being a blowhard that's always pumping his personal brand in the news, which is no small part in why his business ventures can routinely draw in funding and attention well exceeding their actual output. Issuing diktats about whatever issue may be on the public's mind is a great way to keep his brand current.

Trump has shown that there's a lot of mileage to be made by embodying the moron's understanding of what a businessman is. Whether it's having some absurd show like the Apprentice or tweeting out business wisdom from on high, there's always going to be some segment of this country that is impressed by the idea of the genius dictator. The public is enamored with the idea of a hands-on petty tyrant guiding the company to success based on their super-human effort and intuition, even though anyone who has actually ever worked in these kinds of scenarios know how terribly this kind of organization functions.

It's really embarrassing how absolutely bedazzled the public is with people who play-pretend the role of big important businessman.

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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:18 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which is why he would want new experiences
Obviously not.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:21 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This description of your friend, and Elon Musk's own description of what he wants his workers to do (Be in the office for a *minimum* of 40 hours, and be visible to co-workers) is almost a perfect illustration of what David Graeber called "Bull **** Jobs". Link





Graeber addresses a number of points about how this kind of bloat is often expected or criticized in the public industry, but produces example after example of exactly the same thing occurring in the private sector, maybe even to a greater extent, with the point being that even if it occurs in the public sector, there is usually no tyrants or taskmasters there to stop people from indulging their own interests. People like Elon Musk clearly jealously demand their workers visibly use up their time that he is paying for, which means the incentive is for his workers to look busy while onsite rather than, say, finish their work at home and spend time with their kids.
Who finishes their work? Unless they are sub contractors to a specific project, once you finish a project you continue on to the next project.

The fact you think the employee can finish their work when there is infinite work to be done is why they need to come in.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:29 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
he does.
all he wants is some news that will raise the stock price he tanked.
More specifically he wants to be able to fire as many people for cause right now as he can because if he doesn't, he's going to have to lay off some people soon instead and that will tank the price even further.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:29 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Who finishes their work? Unless they are sub contractors to a specific project, once you finish a project you continue on to the next project.

The fact you think the employee can finish their work when there is infinite work to be done is why they need to come in.
Have you ever seen American History X?

The white supremacist guy is in jail and working in the laundry room with the black guy. The white guy is trying to fold all the shirts as quickly as possible. The black guy is like, "why are you doing this? They will just keep putting more shirts in. We never finish!"

So the moral is Don't be productive. Just work nice and slow until the end of your shift.

Elon Musk apparently also just wants people to work 40 hours.

If there is infinite work to do, then what is the point in being efficient?
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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:31 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
More specifically he wants to be able to fire as many people for cause right now as he can because if he doesn't, he's going to have to lay off some people soon instead and that will tank the price even further.
I once heard someone talking about Boris Johnson saying that that "jovial exterior" is the type of thing that gives way to sudden nastiness when people stop laughing along with him. I think that could be true of Musk.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:42 AM   #21
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Eventually employees will figure out how to do the same amount of work quicker, but they won't take on more work to fill the gap.

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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:47 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Have you ever seen American History X?

The white supremacist guy is in jail and working in the laundry room with the black guy. The white guy is trying to fold all the shirts as quickly as possible. The black guy is like, "why are you doing this? They will just keep putting more shirts in. We never finish!"

So the moral is Don't be productive. Just work nice and slow until the end of your shift.

Elon Musk apparently also just wants people to work 40 hours.

If there is infinite work to do, then what is the point in being efficient?
Shirt folders can't work from home. For good or ill, the work from home group are on a different career path.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:49 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
he does.
all he wants is some news that will raise the stock price he tanked.
Yep. My boss loves this news. He hates wfh even though we have been breaking productivity records and having trouble finding enough people to hire. He just can’t forget the few people who haven’t been able to handle wfh. And we are stuck in our lease for the next seven years.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:51 AM   #24
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Musk has been facing a series of bad news for him that is dinging his public persona pretty badly.

The California investigation and crackdown on the overt racism at his factory is slowly grinding on, and the news of that is only going to keep getting worse.

Him being publicly revealed to be an Epstein copycat sex pest also isn't doing him any favors.

Realistically, Musk pivoting to being a right wing weirdo crying about woke culture and blah blah blah is probably his best move. Rather than trying to salvage his toxic personality, which likely won't work, he can lean into being a reprobate in a way that will make the CHUDs love him more. It's only a matter of time before he explicitly does the "I used to be a lib, but these crazy blue-haired wokes made me become a loathsome right winger" schtick we've seen from so many others.

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Old 2nd June 2022, 05:58 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Shirt folders can't work from home. For good or ill, the work from home group are on a different career path.
That's true. Graeber distinguishes between what's called a BS job and an S job. Most S jobs are actually valuable and worthwhile jobs, but our societies tend to pay them far less for these essential jobs that provide genuine services.

A BS job tends to be one where there actually isn't work, or at least nothing that is worthwhile, or which could be done more productively in a faster time.

If there is "infinite work" to do, but you are paid to be there 40 hours, why bother doing the work any faster than you need to?
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Old 2nd June 2022, 06:04 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Musk has been facing a series of bad news for him that is dinging his public persona pretty badly.

The California investigation and crackdown on the overt racism at his factory is slowly grinding on, and the news of that is only going to keep getting worse.

Him being publicly revealed to be an Epstein copycat sex pest also isn't doing him any favors.

Realistically, Musk pivoting to being a right wing weirdo crying about woke culture and blah blah blah is probably his best move. Rather than trying to salvage his toxic personality, which likely won't work, he can lean into being a reprobate in a way that will make the CHUDs love him more. It's only a matter of time before he explicitly does the "I used to be a lib, but these crazy blue-haired wokes made me become a loathsome right winger" schtick we've seen from so many others.
He's already done that by saying he used to be a Democrat but now is a Republican.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 06:09 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Have you ever seen American History X?

The white supremacist guy is in jail and working in the laundry room with the black guy. The white guy is trying to fold all the shirts as quickly as possible. The black guy is like, "why are you doing this? They will just keep putting more shirts in. We never finish!"

So the moral is Don't be productive. Just work nice and slow until the end of your shift.

Elon Musk apparently also just wants people to work 40 hours.

If there is infinite work to do, then what is the point in being efficient?
That's a minimum though, he's also expressed admiration for China's 996 system (9 AM to 9 PM, 6 days per week) and a wish that American workers would adopt it.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 06:09 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That's true. Graeber distinguishes between what's called a BS job and an S job. Most S jobs are actually valuable and worthwhile jobs, but our societies tend to pay them far less for these essential jobs that provide genuine services.

A BS job tends to be one where there actually isn't work, or at least nothing that is worthwhile, or which could be done more productively in a faster time.

If there is "infinite work" to do, but you are paid to be there 40 hours, why bother doing the work any faster than you need to?
Because the work you do either generates revenue or increases profitability and your compensation would be affected by that.


I thought I was an average office worker. Maybe that isn't true
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Old 2nd June 2022, 06:11 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because the work you do either generates revenue or increases profitability and your compensation would be affected by that.


I thought I was an average office worker. Maybe that isn't true
Productivity has been rising, wages haven't. Now what?
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Old 2nd June 2022, 06:15 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because the work you do either generates revenue or increases profitability
Not necessarily.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
and your compensation would be affected by that.
This is absolutely not necessarily true. What planet do you live on?
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Old 2nd June 2022, 06:17 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Not necessarily.



This is absolutely not necessarily true. What planet do you live on?
One where I have to record my time weekly because my hours are billed to clients. I thought a lot of people did that.

What are you doing at a desk if you are not generating revenue or profit?
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Old 2nd June 2022, 06:19 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
One where I have to record my time weekly because my hours are billed to clients. I thought a lot of people did that.

What are you doing at a desk if you are not generating revenue or profit?
**** posting on Twitter probably.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 06:27 AM   #33
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Is Musk at his desk increasing profitability for the company?
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Old 2nd June 2022, 06:47 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
One where I have to record my time weekly because my hours are billed to clients. I thought a lot of people did that.
I haven't filled out a time card in over 3 years.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What are you doing at a desk if you are not generating revenue or profit?
Supporting others who do. I'm a network\systems admin. I don't directly bill a customer because my job isn't to support customers.

Did you seriously think that's how every job works? That's interesting.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 07:25 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I haven't filled out a time card in over 3 years.



Supporting others who do. I'm a network\systems admin. I don't directly bill a customer because my job isn't to support customers.

Did you seriously think that's how every job works? That's interesting.
Not every job. But the majority. Hopefully the network you support has a lot more people on it generating revenue than supporting the network.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 07:30 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Not every job. But the majority. Hopefully the network you support has a lot more people on it generating revenue than supporting the network.
No idea what this means. I support the network. I'm the only person that supports the network, no one else does.

Anyway, you asked a question. What do people do if they aren't sitting and bringing in revenue? There are a ton of jobs that don't bring in revenue, like most of HR, administration, etc. I think if you sat down and thought about it there are significantly more support jobs than you expected.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 07:35 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No idea what this means. I support the network. I'm the only person that supports the network, no one else does.

Anyway, you asked a question. What do people do if they aren't sitting and bringing in revenue? There are a ton of jobs that don't bring in revenue, like most of HR, administration, etc. I think if you sat down and thought about it there are significantly more support jobs than you expected.
But each support job is hopefully supporting many people generating revenue, right?
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Old 2nd June 2022, 07:38 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
On the upside, not meeting everyone at the office even once a week
definitely has gone viral But as one article put it, there's a downside.
"We learned that there was a lot of alcohol consumption, eating, pot
smoking, and watching porn while quarantined."
If the work is getting done on time and to the required standard, then does that matter?
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Old 2nd June 2022, 07:39 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If the work is getting done on time and to the required standard, then does that matter?
Unless when people in the office means they get their work done on time, you can observe that, and give them more work.
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Old 2nd June 2022, 07:41 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Unless when people in the office means they get their work done on time, you can observe that, and give them more work.
It's good to incentivise people to work slower, I guess...
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