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Old 24th July 2022, 10:40 AM   #1
zooterkin
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Look out, Skynet next....

Chess robot breaks seven-year-old boy's finger during Moscow Open
Quote:
A robot broke a seven-year-old boy's finger during a chess match in Moscow last week, Russian news outlets report.

"The robot broke the child's finger," Sergey Lazarev, Moscow Chess Federation President, told Tass news agency. "This is of course bad."

A video shared on social media shows the robot taking one of the boy's pieces. The boy then makes his own move, and the robot grabs his finger.

Video on this link:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...pponent-moscow
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Old 24th July 2022, 10:57 AM   #2
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I would worry if he had punched the kid in the face..
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Old 24th July 2022, 11:04 AM   #3
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Imagine being so bad at robotics that you can't even guarantee something as simple as a chess-piece-mover.
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Old 24th July 2022, 11:30 AM   #4
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Quote:
The boy then makes his own move, and the robot grabs his finger.
And hilarity ensued as the boy promptly farted!
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Old 24th July 2022, 10:29 PM   #5
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The boy violated the safety rules. It shows this in the video and text.
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Old 25th July 2022, 01:24 AM   #6
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A few things spring to mind - the robot must have had no optical recognition feature, and why would it need to grip a piece so hard that that force might break someone's finger?
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Old 25th July 2022, 01:37 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
A few things spring to mind - the robot must have had no optical recognition feature, and why would it need to grip a piece so hard that that force might break someone's finger?
Doesn't look like it uses optical sensors so suspect it's simply programmed to go to a set location move the grasp down and contract it to a certain span and then it will lift up and move to the required square.

If when it went to grasp the next piece the boy's finger was in the way it would have tried to contract the grasp by the usual amount so it crushed the finger against the piece.

One suspects that H&S wasn't up to spec.
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Old 25th July 2022, 01:57 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The boy violated the safety rules. It shows this in the video and text.
That's not how safety should work.
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Old 25th July 2022, 02:01 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
That's not how safety should work.
That's how it works in Russia.
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Old 25th July 2022, 02:37 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
That's how it works in Russia.
One does rather suspect that.
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Old 25th July 2022, 05:25 AM   #11
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Robot learning at its best. The boy won’t make that move again.
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Old 25th July 2022, 06:27 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
That's how it works in Russia.
In Russia, robot breaks you!

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Robot learning at its best. The boy won’t make that move again.
It will come to be known as the Droid's Gambit.
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Old 25th July 2022, 06:37 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
That's not how safety should work.
Of course it is. We recognize safety zones for all kinds of industrial and other heavy equipment. Robots, especially in factories, often have safety zones that people are expected to stay out of.

And not just robots. Tell a kid not to run into the street, or not to put their finger in the door jamb, that's totally reasonable.
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Old 25th July 2022, 06:42 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Of course it is. We recognize safety zones for all kinds of industrial and other heavy equipment. Robots, especially in factories, often have safety zones that people are expected to stay out of.

And not just robots. Tell a kid not to run into the street, or not to put their finger in the door jamb, that's totally reasonable.
Er, this thing is designed to lift and move a chess piece. Why would it need to apply force sufficient to break a finger? If it were for picking up grapes or strawberries it would be appropriately designed.
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Last edited by GlennB; 25th July 2022 at 06:47 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 25th July 2022, 06:58 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Er, this thing is designed to lift and move a chess piece. Why would it need to apply force sufficient to break a finger? If it were for picking up grapes or strawberries it would be appropriately designed.
They're probably using COTS parts

The whole thing sounds like a stupid stunt to begin with, even before the overstrength and the need for safety zones.
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Old 25th July 2022, 07:16 AM   #16
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I watched the video again and can't make sense of it. The robot does something related to square d1, the kid moves a rook from a1 to d1 and the robot comes back to that square while the kid's hand is still on the piece. What business does the robot have in moving at all at that point? Also, the robot is black and after its 'move' there's no obvious sign of a black piece on d1. Maybe the picture is too fuzzy to see it.
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Old 25th July 2022, 09:23 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Tell a kid not to run into the street, or not to put their finger in the door jamb, that's totally reasonable.
Do you have any real-world experience of kids?
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Old 25th July 2022, 11:13 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Robot learning at its best. The boy wonít make that move again.
Don't you mean *teaching*?
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Old 25th July 2022, 11:29 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Don't you mean *teaching*?
It's a two way street.
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Old 25th July 2022, 11:30 AM   #20
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I’ve heard a lot about “robot learning” in sales pitches for AI systems that really just train the users. So, in my mind, this is a perfect example of robot learning.
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Old 25th July 2022, 11:34 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Do you have any real-world experience of kids?
Just the whiney ones who canít balance a transmission with one hand while running the slack out of those bolts with the other. Get out from under the car if you canít do the job. Kindergarten is for quitters, and you Karen.
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Old 25th July 2022, 11:35 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Do you have any real-world experience of kids?
Yes, but irrelevant. Telling kids about safety zones is exactly how safety works (in part), all over the world. a_unique_person's claim that having kids and safety zones is not how safety should work is bizarre to me. I think a_u_p wasn't really thinking through the vast re-ordering of society that would result, if telling kids about safety zones isn't something we should be doing.

What's a_u_p's preferred safety solution for busy streets? Right now, we supervise kids, and tell them to look both ways, cross with the signal, etc. - I.e., we tell them about safety zones. They don't always comply, but what's the alternative? Wall off streets from sidewalks? We do that too, sometimes - freeways for example. But just because we don't do it for every road and boulevard, and sometimes a kid runs into traffic, that doesn't mean "that's not how safety should work".
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Old 25th July 2022, 12:37 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I watched the video again and can't make sense of it. The robot does something related to square d1, the kid moves a rook from a1 to d1 and the robot comes back to that square while the kid's hand is still on the piece. What business does the robot have in moving at all at that point? Also, the robot is black and after its 'move' there's no obvious sign of a black piece on d1. Maybe the picture is too fuzzy to see it.

Here's what I see: the robot is capturing the white piece (bishop, I think) on d1 with the black bishop at g4. It does this by:

1. pick up the captured white piece from d1
2. drop the white piece into the square gray bin to the right of the board
3. pick up the black bishop from g4
4. place the black bishop on d1

The boy wants to respond by moving a rook at a1 to capture d1. But he does this (with his right hand) while the robot is still performing steps 3 and 4. His hand, the rook, the robot hand, and the black bishop all arrive at d4 at about the same time, the robot arm descending from directly above d4 and the boy's hand moving left to right. What exactly happens then (how the robot hand ends up grasping the boy's finger) is hidden by the boy's head, but a finger getting the worst of it seems a pretty likely outcome.

Rather poor chess etiquette on both sides, I'd say.
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Old 25th July 2022, 12:45 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes, but irrelevant. Telling kids about safety zones is exactly how safety works (in part), all over the world. a_unique_person's claim that having kids and safety zones is not how safety should work is bizarre to me. I think a_u_p wasn't really thinking through the vast re-ordering of society that would result, if telling kids about safety zones isn't something we should be doing.

What's a_u_p's preferred safety solution for busy streets? Right now, we supervise kids, and tell them to look both ways, cross with the signal, etc. - I.e., we tell them about safety zones. They don't always comply, but what's the alternative? Wall off streets from sidewalks? We do that too, sometimes - freeways for example. But just because we don't do it for every road and boulevard, and sometimes a kid runs into traffic, that doesn't mean "that's not how safety should work".
That's a misrepresentation of a_unique_person's point. He didn't say we shouldn't warn kids about physical dangers, but that there's more to safety than that - prevention, for example, i.e. taking active steps that remove the danger. In this case optical recognition of 'something wrong' in the area would be one way, but the far easier solution would be to drop the force applied by the robot arm down to a sensible level.

At the moment I'm in the middle of a major bathroom rebuild. Early on the ceiling light was taken down, pending plastering. The refitters didn't warn me and the plasterer guy not to touch those bare wires, they switched off the circuit at the fuse box and taped over the bare ends of the wires.
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Old 25th July 2022, 06:24 PM   #25
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Dr Asimov would not be pleased.
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Old 26th July 2022, 02:05 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Er, this thing is designed to lift and move a chess piece. Why would it need to apply force sufficient to break a finger? If it were for picking up grapes or strawberries it would be appropriately designed.
It will be as strong as the components are. The video is very poor quality but I suspect all the arm does is move to a spatial location, open its grasper, move down X amount and close the grasper to a certain width, then lift up, the pressure involved is simply what the motors produce. It doesn't seem that the kid was too injured, it's a kid they break very easily so I expect there wasn't much pressure applied.
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Old 26th July 2022, 02:09 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Of course it is. We recognize safety zones for all kinds of industrial and other heavy equipment. Robots, especially in factories, often have safety zones that people are expected to stay out of.

And not just robots. Tell a kid not to run into the street, or not to put their finger in the door jamb, that's totally reasonable.
What a load of rubbish - we aren't talking about safety in a factory, we are talking about safety at this event and yes, it is obviously crap safety if it relies on young kids understanding and taking instruction and doing precisely what they have been told to do every single time. Anyone with a brain knows kids will screw up from time to time.
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Old 26th July 2022, 02:11 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Dr Asimov would not be pleased.
But Susan Calvin would be.
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Old 26th July 2022, 02:45 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It will be as strong as the components are. The video is very poor quality but I suspect all the arm does is move to a spatial location, open its grasper, move down X amount and close the grasper to a certain width, then lift up, the pressure involved is simply what the motors produce.
I dunno, chess pieces vary somewhat in width, so if the grabber is set to the width of the narrowest piece - a pawn - it will crush a wider piece such as a rook. I'm still left wondering why the robot was moving at all, as it wasn't the robot's turn.

If this happened in the US the personal injury lawyers would be queueing up to offer their services
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File Type: jpg chess.jpg (7.8 KB, 3 views)
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Old 26th July 2022, 04:58 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I dunno, chess pieces vary somewhat in width, so if the grabber is set to the width of the narrowest piece - a pawn - it will crush a wider piece such as a rook. I'm still left wondering why the robot was moving at all, as it wasn't the robot's turn.

If this happened in the US the personal injury lawyers would be queueing up to offer their services
Well it might have different widths set for different pieces - however I suspect they'll have gone down the simplest route, so the arm moves the open gasper to the board height and then closes the grasper at the base of the piece - in your photo above there isn't much difference in the width of the base.
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Old 26th July 2022, 12:49 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I dunno, chess pieces vary somewhat in width, so if the grabber is set to the width of the narrowest piece - a pawn - it will crush a wider piece such as a rook. I'm still left wondering why the robot was moving at all, as it wasn't the robot's turn.

Did you see my post #23? The robot was moving because it hadn't yet completed its turn. The kid moved his rook to capture the piece that the robot was in the process of moving, but hadn't yet finished moving, to d1.
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Old 26th July 2022, 01:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Did you see my post #23? The robot was moving because it hadn't yet completed its turn. The kid moved his rook to capture the piece that the robot was in the process of moving, but hadn't yet finished moving, to d1.
Apologies, I somehow managed to miss it, dunno how, but you're right. The robot must remove the piece it's going to capture first, then go back with the capturing piece. Still a slight mystery as to how it managed to bite the boy's hand while carrying a piece, but I suppose it might just have been a collision?
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Old 26th July 2022, 01:07 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What a load of rubbish - we aren't talking about safety in a factory, we are talking about safety at this event and yes, it is obviously crap safety if it relies on young kids understanding and taking instruction and doing precisely what they have been told to do every single time. Anyone with a brain knows kids will screw up from time to time.
Doesn't make it crap safety. It's the same safety protocol we use with kids and busy streets. Yes, kids screw up from time to time, but you don't wander around the village, shaking your fist on streetcorners and ranting about how crap zebra crossings are at safety.
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Old 26th July 2022, 01:35 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Doesn't make it crap safety. It's the same safety protocol we use with kids and busy streets. Yes, kids screw up from time to time, but you don't wander around the village, shaking your fist on streetcorners and ranting about how crap zebra crossings are at safety.
The lack of or ignoring of a risk assessment that assessed that, and the lack of any effective mitigating action s makes it crap safety. Face it, you could probably use COTS stuff from the 1980s to prevent that with little effort.
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https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt

Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK
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Old 26th July 2022, 02:32 PM   #35
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But Susan Calvin would be.
But what would Data say?
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Old 26th July 2022, 03:10 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The lack of or ignoring of a risk assessment that assessed that, and the lack of any effective mitigating action s makes it crap safety. Face it, you could probably use COTS stuff from the 1980s to prevent that with little effort.
My point is that aup's assertion that a child ignoring safety zones is "not how safety should work" flies in the face of extremely common and widely accepted safety protocols about children and safety zones. It is, in fact, by broad consensus exactly how safety should work.
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Old 26th July 2022, 03:28 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My point is that aup's assertion that a child ignoring safety zones is "not how safety should work" flies in the face of extremely common and widely accepted safety protocols about children and safety zones. It is, in fact, by broad consensus exactly how safety should work.
No, because equipment is expected to meet safety standards. This didn't.

My car won't start unless the clutch is depressed. I might warn a child not to climb in and turn the ignition key, but their leg won't reach the clutch so the car won't fire up anyway.

I might (and did) warn my small children not to fool around on the stairs, but I fitted a child-proof stair gate anyway.

Also, you're (again) misrespresenting aup's point.
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Old 26th July 2022, 03:33 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Apologies, I somehow managed to miss it, dunno how, but you're right. The robot must remove the piece it's going to capture first, then go back with the capturing piece. Still a slight mystery as to how it managed to bite the boy's hand while carrying a piece, but I suppose it might just have been a collision?

It was more than some glancing blow (however forceful) because the boy does act as if his hand is trapped and the attendants afterward do appear to be making some effort to free it. Also, the robot stops moving instead of fully completing the move (which must normally include withdrawing from the board after placing the moving black piece). One possibility that seems likely to me is that the descending robot grasper (or the chess piece it was grasping) pressed his finger down onto the top of the rook he was moving to the d1 position. (Look at how he reaches across to his left to grab the white rook, which would make it fairly natural for his index finger to be on top of the rook and remain there as he moved it.) At which point the robot, sensing a collision, stopped dead in that position.
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Old 26th July 2022, 05:40 PM   #39
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You’ve all missed the obvious explanation; the child was purposely injuring his trigger-finger to avoid being sent to the front lines
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Old 26th July 2022, 08:43 PM   #40
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Looking at the video, it seems like the boys finger was maybe jammed or wedged into the robot finger (assumption), and the two men who rather forcefully yanked on the boy's arm to free him perhaps did the actual breaking? Normally when you get stuck or wedged in something, that brutish kind of yanking is what causes the actual damage.
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