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Old 9th September 2017, 08:14 PM   #1841
bruto
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I can buy that. I was mostly balking at Johnny Karate's claim that repeating a lie is lying.

Trump's indifference to truth is a defining feature, as Giordano said.

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Old 10th September 2017, 12:37 AM   #1842
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Red face

Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
Whenever someone claims, "Fake news" I ask them to define it so I can better spot it in the future. I have yet to come up with a cohesive definition.

Next your associate claims "fake news" ask him to define it.
No you can't discuss with someone like that.

I tried very gently discussing evolution with him once, saying that surely the creator* have written the story of the Earth in his* creation and given us the gifts to see it and work it out? This is the view of a couple of devout Christians with whom I tend to have lunch. He was having none of it, dismissing it as due to the flood, or as lies, or as something that was too complex for him to be interested in understanding. He's perfectly capable of holding down a job as a measurement technician, so could understand if he wanted to.

I avoid the subject, and him, although on occasion he sits with us at lunch - or breakfast. I find him too annoying to do anything other than be perfunctorily civil to him. My colleague seems to find his attitudes like an itch and tries to challenge him. I know that isn't going to work, and his smugness would just annoy me.

He dismisses anything inconvenient as, "well all** media lies" or professes to not be interested in the basis for his views. I think that he is actually sincere in this - utterly incurious, which protects his worldview.


TLDR: don't argue facts with an evangelical if you want to convince them of anything - they have demonstrated a mental capacity to ignore inconsistencies

Trump can just bluster it out, and there is little that he could do to change the mind of people like that. I am not even sure whether it would work if he actually insulted them. "I never said that, I didn't mean it like that... Obama tapped my phones".



*I tacitly accepted the existence of such a creator for the sake of this argument.

**Odd that argument is usually used by people subscribing to really complex and implausible conspiracies based on highly dubious sources.
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Old 10th September 2017, 02:40 AM   #1843
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
Whenever someone claims, "Fake news" I ask them to define it so I can better spot it in the future. I have yet to come up with a cohesive definition.

"Fake news" is news which upsets or confuses a Trump supporter (now expanded to include all conservatives) by challenging or outright disproving any of their cherished beliefs, or impugning their Dear Leader in any fashion.

Quote:

Next your associate claims "fake news" ask him to define it.

He probably won't agree with the above definition, but I bet he wouldn't be able to prove it wrong.

Not that that would matter to him.
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Old 10th September 2017, 02:43 AM   #1844
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
"Fake news" is news which upsets or confuses a Trump supporter (now expanded to include all conservatives) by challenging or outright disproving any of their cherished beliefs, or impugning their Dear Leader in any fashion.




He probably won't agree with the above definition, but I bet he wouldn't be able to prove it wrong.

Not that that would matter to him.
Indeed, which is why I don't try, and in fact try to avoid him if possible.
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Old 10th September 2017, 04:06 AM   #1845
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
He didn't twist in the wind over Obama's Nigerian origins.

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Joke I'm missing?
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Old 10th September 2017, 06:41 AM   #1846
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post


Joke I'm missing?
No, that was just an inexplicable failure of memory.

Of course, I meant "Belgian". Or some
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Old 10th September 2017, 06:55 AM   #1847
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No, that was just an inexplicable failure of memory.

Of course, I meant "Belgian". Or some
Or some...what?

In any event, neither Nigeria nor Belgium are involved in the actual false claims made about Obama.
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Old 10th September 2017, 07:01 AM   #1848
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I think the claim was that Obama was a Keynsian which is practically a socialist
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 10th September 2017, 09:14 AM   #1849
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Or some...what?

In any event, neither Nigeria nor Belgium are involved in the actual false claims made about Obama.
You mean "Belgia", of course.

Regarding Fake News, there's been a great deal of actual fake news promoted in the past few years, mostly with a right wing slant and published by "parody" sites with tiny disclaimers who fully intend your relatives to take it seriously and post it on facebook or in their email. It's made up about half of Snopes for quite a while.
Trump has managed to turn that on it's head and apply it to legitimate news organizations who say something true he doesn't like.
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Old 18th September 2017, 03:36 AM   #1850
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
When you say "no one owes you the benefit of the doubt," you implicitly acknowledge that a lie must be a deliberate falsehood. If I believe a falsehood because someone lied to me, I don't lie when I repeat it.



Now, in Trump's case, because the falsehood was slanderous and because he was in a position of authority and also able to check the facts before making the accusation, he deserves plenty of blame. Because he lies so readily, I can also imagine a willingness to believe that this was a lie also.



But if it was not a deliberate falsehood, it wasn't a lie. It was an egregious disregard for the duty to know the facts before making an accusation, but not a lie.



Words do mean things, you know.


Can't prove it, but is why Trumpton does it, is that he knows when a source is a lie and repeats it. That is dishonest and I would say he lied. Other times he just makes stuff up himself which are lies. The number of people at his inauguration is a good example of a lie.


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