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22nd April 2019, 07:44 PM | #681 |
Just the right amount of cowbell
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"In times of war, we need warriors. But this isn't a war." - Phil Plaitt |
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22nd April 2019, 07:49 PM | #682 |
Penultimate Amazing
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22nd April 2019, 08:23 PM | #683 |
Critical Thinker
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22nd April 2019, 08:31 PM | #684 |
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The thing is, the video of the experiments were not edited, with the exception of the balloon car but there is an independent and unedited version. The problem with videos of rockets allegedly in space are either cgi or highly edited with multiple cuts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-v_K1k8Se0&app=desktop
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22nd April 2019, 08:41 PM | #685 |
Penultimate Amazing
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You weren't there. You don't know that. You know nothing about these videos you've linked to.
Quote:
Quote:
Can you answer dasmiller's question above? Yes or no. Can you prove I'm receiving bribes in exchange for lying about the physics of space flight? Yes or no. |
22nd April 2019, 10:02 PM | #686 |
Philosopher
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22nd April 2019, 10:13 PM | #687 |
Critical Thinker
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Jay, with all your qualifications I find really surprising you can't recognise the point you are defeated . There are times to teach, there are times to learn. What if we call this quit and ask Gingervytes to tell us something more. Chemtrails are coming to my mind as something we all should learn something about. How about that, Gingervytes?
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22nd April 2019, 10:43 PM | #688 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Fair enough, but why then have you not accepted the actual repeatable and reproduceable space launches that have been observed by many? The first Sputnik went up in 1957. You always have an argument when videos are presented but what about the direct experience of astronauts and cosmonauts. If all the physicists are wrong and all the videos faked and all the space travelers are liars, your statement is still too abstract, because it's clear that your definition of a scientific experiment that can be observed and repeated differs crucially from that of others. You need to say exactly, precisely, what conditions could be met that would not allow you to shuck it off again.
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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22nd April 2019, 11:11 PM | #689 |
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Firstly, claiming something is CGI is not your get-out clause. You need to prove they aren't genuine. The presence of rockets in space can be verified. If they are in space then you are wrong (helpful reminder: you are wrong).
Secondly, it doesn't matter if there are multiple edits. They are either in space or they aren't (helpful hint: they are). I watched a live falcon heavy launch yesterday, uncut, all the way to orbit, unedited, rocket firing all the way. |
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Facts are simple and facts are straight, facts are lazy and facts are late, facts don't come with points of view, facts don't do what I want them to. ************************** Apollo Hoax Debunked |
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22nd April 2019, 11:40 PM | #690 |
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I wonder if Gingervytes has ever watched satellite tv or relied on GPS?
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22nd April 2019, 11:55 PM | #691 |
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It seems Ginger's burrow under a bridge has local internet nearby he can steal...
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23rd April 2019, 01:51 AM | #692 |
Penultimate Amazing
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They both rely on cables in the ground! Every time you cross one, your GPS registers your position! (Could also be earth rays, I'm not an expert! No, wait! Even people who believe in earth rays seem to know that the earth is round and surrounded by a vacuum full of satellites!) |
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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23rd April 2019, 02:11 AM | #693 |
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23rd April 2019, 02:13 AM | #694 |
Penultimate Amazing
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But you can't provide any evidence to support your claim.
You were even given a link to a video of a rocket working in a vacuum chamber but didn't even acknowledge it. Why is a vacuum chamber any different to space? Why do steam turbines and steam reciprocating engines condense their exhaust to a vacuum? |
23rd April 2019, 02:15 AM | #695 |
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23rd April 2019, 02:31 AM | #696 |
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Sorry I only saw your post today (I just started reading this thread) and I noticed this. I don't think it's a big deal but I'll comment anyway.
To me a sat dish is a parabole antenna. If you're using that word in the same sense too then I also would wonder where it gets its signal from. With GPS you just don't want a highly directional antenna. You'd need at least four of them, each with a mechanism to track their assigned satellite. Not really a good setup I believe. |
23rd April 2019, 02:52 AM | #697 |
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Yep, that's how it works. He is under the delusion that he can dictate which evidence is acceptable and which is not. I am confident that the next stage will be a demand for proof of a rocket firing in space that was taken on a Wednesday afternoon in a month without an 'r' in it using an antique box camera strapped to the left leg of a swallow. Only probably more specific.
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Facts are simple and facts are straight, facts are lazy and facts are late, facts don't come with points of view, facts don't do what I want them to. ************************** Apollo Hoax Debunked |
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23rd April 2019, 03:50 AM | #698 |
Waiting for the Worms
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23rd April 2019, 04:02 AM | #699 |
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Facts are simple and facts are straight, facts are lazy and facts are late, facts don't come with points of view, facts don't do what I want them to. ************************** Apollo Hoax Debunked |
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23rd April 2019, 04:12 AM | #700 |
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23rd April 2019, 04:26 AM | #701 |
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Hmmm....All we have are rocket launches. Well, if you can only have one thing, that's not such a bad thing to have.
However, you are mistaken, and mistaken in a very fundamental way. What we have is a body of theoretical work that traces back to Isaac Newton, and was developed over centuries, that predicts that rockets ought to work in space. I posted "the rocket equation" from Konstantin Tsiolkovksy. Tsiolkovsky was a Russian who died in the 1930s. Presumably he wasn't part of any NASA conspiracy. He never actually built a rocket, much less a rocket that entered and worked in space. He just worked out a bunch of math for how they would work, and it didn't involve pushing off of anything. And his work was good enough that it was published under his name and still used that way, but it's not like it was some sort of amazing breakthrough of brilliance that no one else could have come up with. It doesn't take some sort of super-genius to work out conservation of momentum. The only reason the equation is attached to him is that he decided to do all that theoretical science long before the technology was available to implement it. In other words, we don't just believe in rockets because we have been told a lie by our military-industrial-government complex. We believe in rockets because we believe in physics. The darned things follow the theory. Even if the story of the V-2 was some sort of wartime propaganda, and it never really achieved exo-atmospheric powered flight, the reason the story is so believable is that we know that it would work, based on the theory. But there's another, very important, question. Thermal posted this: So, his tongue is firmly in cheek here. I'm pretty sure that you aren't part of a multinational conspiracy. On the other hand, I hope you are not offended at the suggestion that you might not be telling the truth. Sadly, there are people in the world who think it's cute to say things that they do not actually believe just to get a rise out of someone else. I don't know why people would do that. I've never understood that sort of humor, but there it is. These people exist, and there are enough of them that a word has been coined to describe them: "trolls". One way to catch trolls is to note inconsistencies between various posts. When lying, it's hard to keep consistent. One way to avoid inconsistencies is to keep posts short, and quote other people instead of expressing their own original thought. Your tendency to repeat short phrases and post video links is very consistent with trolling. I hate to bring up even the possibility, because, in my opinion, trolls are a very low form of life. However, I think that if you want to put to rest suspicions that you are a troll, i.e. that you are lying, you need to provide a bit more detail. At least make an effort to address the substance of some of the posts that come at you, instead of simply dismissing them with a short sentence or a youtube link. |
23rd April 2019, 04:37 AM | #702 |
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23rd April 2019, 04:39 AM | #703 |
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Facts are simple and facts are straight, facts are lazy and facts are late, facts don't come with points of view, facts don't do what I want them to. ************************** Apollo Hoax Debunked |
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23rd April 2019, 05:26 AM | #704 |
Critical Thinker
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23rd April 2019, 05:35 AM | #705 |
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23rd April 2019, 05:37 AM | #706 |
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
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"There ain't half been some clever bastards" - Ian Dury |
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23rd April 2019, 05:38 AM | #707 |
Penultimate Amazing
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23rd April 2019, 05:40 AM | #708 |
Penultimate Amazing
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23rd April 2019, 05:42 AM | #709 |
Illuminator
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Gingervytes, I repeat - again:
I’ve personally built (as part of a team), integrated, tested, observed the launch of, and operated spacecraft, including postflight testing. Your claim is observed to be wrong. Any response? Or are you going to continue ignoring refutations like this one? Ya know, if it was me, and I was getting my head handed to me by people who actually do spaceflight for a living, as well as an assortment of educated laymen, I would stop and ask myself if maybe I was wrong, and investigate the criticisms of my claims, because it’s more important to me to get it right than to cling to my beliefs on an anonymous Internet forum. How about you? Would you like to learn something? |
23rd April 2019, 05:43 AM | #710 |
Penultimate Amazing
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There's a slightly Scandinavian word for that sort of behaviour that does not seem to be allowed here. It's a well-known word and Gingy is being a textbook example of one. So why do we even try to provide any "education" for someone who is doing their darndest NOT to be educated. Do we still play with these sorts of creatures?
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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23rd April 2019, 05:46 AM | #711 |
In the Peanut Gallery
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Great performance art here. Gingervytes (gum problems with you?) comes here and puts forward outrageous, easily refuted “theories” about space travel in a vacuum. He or she is treated amazingly courteously while being challenged to support these ridiculous theories. All points made are effectively dissected by knowledgeable experts in this field (take a bow Jay) and there is a genuine effort to inform and educate Ginger. He or she refuses to listen.
So far, rince and repeat for 19 pages. Well done those trying to educate, but this is a forlorn endeavour. Gingervytes, find another forum to waste people’s time and patience. If you believe what you are posting, this is very sad. Personally I think you are just trolling, which is worse. |
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23rd April 2019, 05:46 AM | #712 |
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Yes, and say it in advance. He just did to you what you told him previously not to do. When asked to pin himself down on what he would accept, he just gave you a vague answer, "Scientific evidence," leaving it to others to suggest actual proofs that he then dismisses offhand.
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23rd April 2019, 05:49 AM | #713 |
In the Peanut Gallery
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A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
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23rd April 2019, 05:50 AM | #714 |
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23rd April 2019, 05:55 AM | #715 |
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You said there’s many. So post one. I can’t find one.
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23rd April 2019, 05:58 AM | #716 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Thank you for the kind praise, but it's not Gingervytes I'm hoping to educate. I agree with you and others; his purpose here was never to learn. He never said it was. It was to prove we were all wrong. Now that his performance is just a rinse-and-repeat exercise in denial and bluster, punctuated by the same few YouTube links, it is useful to think about whether we should persist.
At this point there's very little else about rocket propulsion that needs to be said. The discussion has shifted to standards of evidence and standards of proof. These are less exciting topics for many, but are still important. Knowing how to find and examine evidence, and what that evidence proves, is sometimes more important than the substantive debate. Gingervytes has created a framework that lets him pre-emptively dismiss any evidence that could ever be produced, let alone that which we've already seen. We have to decide whether we're going to let him get away with that, and if not, how not. |
23rd April 2019, 05:58 AM | #717 |
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
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23rd April 2019, 05:59 AM | #718 |
Penultimate Amazing
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...which you'll then say is CGI without further discussion. Therefore I'm going to test your ability to discern CGI from the real thing. You said footage of rockets operating in space could be CGI. Provide an example of such footage and show us how you were able to tell it's CGI.
And you say you can't find evidence on your own to satisfy your desire. I've asked you several times to what extent you have searched. You sitting there lazily, holding court while others do all the work, is not going to fly in this debate. |
23rd April 2019, 06:03 AM | #719 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I asked the obvious follow-ups. He declined to answer. But he still claims he has refuted all his critics.
I too frequently operate GPS in very remote areas. My state is one of the few in which you can set off nuclear bombs and no one notices. And vast swathes of my state are no-fly zones. Google Earth aircraft would literally get shot down. |
23rd April 2019, 06:03 AM | #720 |
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Flat Earth Theory: The unfortunate result of ordering pizza to satisfy munchies after smoking way too much weed to bring you down from that hectic acid trip. |
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