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Old 23rd April 2019, 09:43 AM   #761
jond
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Nah, he must have been drugged and put in a simulator.
Wait, the certificate I have from when he brought one of my CDs to the space stationis a fake???
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Old 23rd April 2019, 09:47 AM   #762
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Wait, the certificate I have from when he brought one of my CDs to the space stationis a fake???
Oh, it's real, but the Space Station isn't in space. It's on a secret Air Force Base about 30 miles east of Colorado Springs.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 09:48 AM   #763
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
It’s really easy to find a lot of examples of what you’re asking for.
That's why I asked him to what extent he had searched before concluding there weren't any. And, of course, examples of ones he had found that others would accept, but that he -- via his superior standards of evidence -- would be forced to reject.

It's an obvious stall. He's going to continue baiting people to do work, claiming (falsely) that we have no evidence. He'll dangle it out there that he really does have a reasonable standard of evidence, although he can't articulate it ahead of time. And he'll continue to knee-jerkedly reject everything that's presented to him by one ad hoc criterion after another :-- "Nope, edited." "Nope, CGI." "Nope, fake."
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Old 23rd April 2019, 09:54 AM   #764
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Gingervytes,

Here are some things that I don't understand. Perhaps you could help me.

Who is conducting this charade?

Such an elaborate conspiracy must have a purpose. What is it? Why are the conspirators doing it?

Who benefits from it? (Maybe this is the same as a previous question.)

How do they benefit?

How do they fake all these things?

Is there a department of the conspiracy that makes the CGI videos?

Is there a department that constructs the rockets, and fires them off to splash into the ocean and sink?

This must all cost a ton of money. How do they pay for it?



How did you discover it?

What is your reason for wanting to expose it?

Aren't you afraid that you've put yourself in danger by trying to expose it?

What are you doing to protect yourself and your family from the conspirators?
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Last edited by xterra; 23rd April 2019 at 09:56 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:17 AM   #765
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Nice! My best friend was on STS-126, 132 and 133. Guess he must be a paid liar too.
The fire looks unnatural. Where is the smoke? Looks really fake
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:21 AM   #766
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
The fire looks unnatural.
Vague and unsupported. In what "natural" way should the fire appear, and why? Keep in mind that plume geometry is an actual part of rocket science. Simply applying a layman's uninformed expectation is nonprobative.

Quote:
Where is the smoke?
Why do you think a rocket engine should invariably produce smoke?

Quote:
Looks really fake
Vague and unsupported. Your uneducated opinion is not evidence or argument.

Last edited by JayUtah; 23rd April 2019 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:24 AM   #767
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
The fire looks unnatural. Where is the smoke? Looks really fake
Given your demonstrated inability to understand the science involved, and your refusal to explain your methodology by which you determine what is faked in video vs what is real, why should anyone anywhere take your opinion seriously?
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:26 AM   #768
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
The fire looks unnatural. Where is the smoke? Looks really fake

There you go, living down to everyone’s expectations with an incredibly lazy effort.

Sad.

Low energy.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:29 AM   #769
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
You said there’s many. So post one. I can’t find one.


https://youtu.be/rHv4ntdztjQ
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:30 AM   #770
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
You said there’s many. So post one. I can’t find one.


These videos are incredibly easy to find.

Did you even look????

https://youtu.be/ZqQihgWvx0I
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:32 AM   #771
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
You said there’s many. So post one. I can’t find one.


I’m particularly fond of the Space Shuttle launches.

https://youtu.be/XbHoWbYFPvc
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:34 AM   #772
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Originally Posted by threadworm View Post
Your criteria are...what, exactly?
As bruto explained, he has none that he can articulate ahead of time. From his latest masterstroke, it's obvious that his schtick is to simply point to this or that in whatever someone else hands him and say, "Nope, fake." Then he'll continue to promise or insinuate that his criteria really are legitimate and operative, and won't we all just please keep throwing links his way so that he can pretend this is an ongoing discussion where we have the burden to produce all the evidence.

Quote:
Simply declaring something to be fake does not make them fake, it just makes you look stupid and woefully ill-informed.
But in the hands of a skilled troll, such an argument at least can be made to kick the can down the road a bit longer. One could argue that a layman's common sense is a sufficient yardstick. Or one could argue that while it's not possible to prove it's fake, neither can anyone else prove it cannot be fake, which is the only true standard of evidence.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:47 AM   #773
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
Given your demonstrated inability to understand the science involved, and your refusal to explain your methodology by which you determine what is faked in video vs what is real, why should anyone anywhere take your opinion seriously?
This is especially problematic since he expressed an interest in publishing his findings. Those of his critics with experience in academic writing presented him with a list of hurdles he would have clear in order for that to happen. To that list we added the necessity to explain prior observations. This is essential in a publication that proposes to overturn existing science. A new theory must at least explain the observations that the outgoing theory predicts.

Gingervytes reminded us that evidence must be of a scientific character and repeatable in order to have probative value. This is best achieved by employing processes that have themselves been subject to many validation exercises. The method by which one collects and evaluates data is of utmost concern, and is usually the focus of the attention paid by reviewers. If a scientist has committed and error, it is most likely in the selection, device, and implementation of his method.

Here the method for evaluating the purported observations boils down to, "It looks fake to me." It's his personal, subjective impression based on an incomplete and incorrect understanding of the underlying principles and quite likely tainted with his preconceptions. It is in no way objective and repeatable. As usual, his arguments can't even meet his own standards of proof.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:48 AM   #774
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
The fire looks unnatural. Where is the smoke? Looks really fake
Yeah, I'm leaning toward troll.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:50 AM   #775
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
The fire looks unnatural. Where is the smoke? Looks really fake
That is hardly a standard by which to judge, "I have a personal opinion you honor"
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:52 AM   #776
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Yeah, I'm leaning toward troll.
Every rocket launch seen from earth you always see a plume if smoke behind the fire. You did not in any of these videos
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:55 AM   #777
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Every rocket launch seen from earth you always see a plume if smoke behind the fire. You did not in any of these videos
Speaking of which, you claimed earlier that the ones you saw didn't go into space. Where was it you saw them go again?
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Old 23rd April 2019, 10:56 AM   #778
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
You said there’s many. So post one. I can’t find one.
No. The Burden of proof is yours.

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Old 23rd April 2019, 11:17 AM   #779
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I’m particularly fond of the Space Shuttle launches.
They're certainly dramatic and unique, owing to that vehicle's singular configuration. But let's not omit the venerable Saturn V, whose launches (and those of many other rockets) are indeed tracked visually from the ground to altitudes that are functional vacuums.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8fLjC3gNTk

The original source of this digital video predates CGI, and I can testify that it was available and circulated long prior to the advent of CGI. So we categorically dismiss CGI as a possible explanation for it.

The rocket is tracked continuously from liftoff to S-IC staging, which occurs nominally at an altitude of some 67 km. The film was shot in front of millions of lay witnesses. The rocket's trajectory was visually monitored by several parties from several angles, so cannot have been redirected in order to simulate a higher altitude by flying lower and flatter. There is also a visual record of the tracking cameras in operation, to verify that they were actually photographing an actual flying object.

Standard methods allow me to calculate atmospheric pressure at the point of staging as approximately 0.008 atm. Let us calibrate that against Gingervytes' "balloon car" video, which used a household vacuum cleaner to produce a zone of partial vacuum and thereby -- it is alleged -- reduce the effectiveness of a jet-propelled car in front of it. First we stipulate that the appliance cannot have produced a total vacuum. If so, according to Gingervytes' theory, the car would not have moved at all. Further, it is precluded by the conditions of the test as shown. His argument is that the effect should scale; if a partial vacuum produces so much effect, a total vacuum should produce total effect. We next quantify that partial vacuum as best we can.

A Dyson cyclonic vacuum (typical of many household models) is rated at 45 inches of water vacuum pressure. That is the measurement of its ability to produce a partial vacuum under ideal conditions -- a pristine filter and well-maintained motor, with a total seal at the intake. This equates to 0.1 atm. To be charitable, we'll grant the "balloon car" its ideal conditions and reckon that the balloon car was purported to push against only 0.9 atm of remaining pressure.

Gingervytes insists that an informally (i.e., macro scale) visible degradation in propulsive effect is produced from just a ten-percent reduction in static pressure. (To be sure, I argue the effect is from flow, not static pressure. But the exercise here is to determine whether Gingervytes' model of rocket propulsion is consistent with itself.) If he is correct, the Saturn V would have encountered similar conditions to Balloon Car at an altitude of only 880 meters. (We'll assume LC-39 is at sea level, which it pretty much is.) That's at a time when the rocket was still quite visible to the unaided eye. Most of us can still discern flying objects even after they reach an altitude of 10 km, at which point static atmospheric pressure is only one-quarter than of sea level. If Gingervytes' handwaving is to be believed, we should be seeing a dramatic reduction in propulsive force at such a low static pressure. Yet at this point -- seen from up and down the Florida coast -- the rocket continues to climb and move rapidly downrange.

More importantly, turning back to the tracking camera footage, we can see the pronounced effects of negligible static pressure at 60+ km. The plumes from the F-1s are vastly expanded, the LOX/RP-1 flames now expanding so freely as to have lost all incandescence. Yet the rocket is not losing thrust or altitude. Clearly its thrust is effective even though it reached functional vacuum long before that, and exceeded the conditions of the balloon-car test before it even left Florida airspace.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 11:24 AM   #780
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Rockets cannot propel in the vacuum of space.

Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Every rocket launch seen from earth you always see a plume if smoke behind the fire. You did not in any of these videos


Ah, so you didn’t watch the videos I posted. You’re lying about having watched them.

The plumes of smoke left behind while the rocket is still in the atmosphere are clearly visible at points when the launch vehicles are changing angle. The Space Shuttle launch I posted has a particularly pretty one, visible as a distinct line against the clouds. Other videos have more visible plumes.

Claiming the smoke isn’t visible is a lazy, blatant, and easily checked lie on your part.

Last edited by halleyscomet; 23rd April 2019 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 11:27 AM   #781
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Every rocket launch seen from earth you always see a plume if smoke behind the fire.
Have you seen every rocket launch from Earth?

Whether there is smoke in a rocket exhaust depends on the fuel, and to a certain extent what species of exhaust products are produced at what stage of flight.

The space shuttle used two separate propellant formulations. The solid rocket motors burned aluminum powder oxidized with ammonium perchlorate in a polyurethane binder. All of that will result in visible smoke in addition to the flame. The liquid-fueled motors burned hydrogen and oxygen, producing only water vapor as an exhaust. This is largely why the space shuttle produces no visible exhaust after SRB staging (although in some cases a contrail will result). The Saturn V, and many subsequent vehicles, burned liquid oxygen and RP-1, a certain grade of kerosene. RP-1, as a hydrocarbon, produces many species of carbonaceous solids when combusted with liquid oxygen.

The Titan II produced vast amounts of "smoke" at ignition (hint: not really smoke, but it would be mistaken for it), but then no smoke at steady-state combustion. It used hypergols, Aerozine-50 and nitrogen tetroxide. The exhaust products from that reaction are almost entirely gaseous, not solid.

(By the way, you don't get to switch from saying "Rockets don't eject solids" to "Rockets must always produce smoke." See if you can guess why.)
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Old 23rd April 2019, 11:37 AM   #782
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Gingervytes, if rockets require air to push against, does it follow that a rocket cannot produce more thrust than the air pressure? A rocket with a 1 sq in exhaust nozzle could not produce more than 14.7 lb of thrust?
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Old 23rd April 2019, 11:38 AM   #783
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When your local political body debates the effects of legalizing marijuana, they should be directed to this thread and the flat earth websites.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 11:39 AM   #784
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
That is hardly a standard by which to judge, "I have a personal opinion you honor"
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Old 23rd April 2019, 11:50 AM   #785
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
When your local political body debates the effects of legalizing marijuana, they should be directed to this thread and the flat earth websites.


That’s hardly fair. This thread is all about the way religious belief is detrimental to a person’s capacity for examining scientific data. Don’t drag poor Mary Jane into a debate that she played no part in.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 11:51 AM   #786
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Every rocket launch seen from earth you always see a plume if smoke behind the fire. You did not in any of these videos
No plume of stram. In vacuum, the water wapor disperses instead of condensing.

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Old 23rd April 2019, 12:04 PM   #787
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
No plume of stram. In vacuum, the water wapor disperses instead of condensing.

Hans
I think Gingervytes' theory is that in a vacuum, gas behaves completely different from when it's in an atmosphere, but exhaust gas behaves exactly the same.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 12:04 PM   #788
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
I literally stated if you had a unedited video of a rocket entering space, I would accept it. But there is none.
Oh yes there is.

Is your google broken?
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Old 23rd April 2019, 12:20 PM   #789
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
The fire looks unnatural. Where is the smoke? Looks really fake
Yeah, I'm leaning toward troll.

A very lazy one.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 12:25 PM   #790
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
I think Gingervytes' theory is that in a vacuum, gas behaves completely different from when it's in an atmosphere, but exhaust gas behaves exactly the same.
So you are saying that the rocket wasn’t in the earth’s atmosphere at the beginning of the video?
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Old 23rd April 2019, 12:31 PM   #791
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
I literally stated if you had a unedited video of a rocket entering space, I would accept it. But there is none.
OK, but this one's unedited. No cutting at all.

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 23rd April 2019 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 12:40 PM   #792
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Oh yes there is.

Is your google broken?
those ones are fake obv.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 12:45 PM   #793
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Did you personally see the rocket go into space. Did you just merely work while thinking rockets work in space?
Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Your question makes no sense. Why would you expect direct eyeball observation from the ground to be the standard of evidence as to whether rockets work in space? You have other problems, but first you need to address your faulty premise.
Please address this issue. Your premise is faulty. We can’t address the rest of your problems until we fix your ignorance with regard to your starting point.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 12:59 PM   #794
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
OK, but this one's unedited. No cutting at all.

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Lol. Almost not cgi
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:02 PM   #795
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
The fire looks unnatural. Where is the smoke? Looks really fake
Nope. That’s exactly what a Shuttle launch looks like. I’ve witnessed a number of them from KSC and the Cape. Once again, your uninformed opinion is falsified by direct personal experience.

Now, please address my last post.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:07 PM   #796
Gingervytes
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Nope. That’s exactly what a Shuttle launch looks like. I’ve witnessed a number of them from KSC and the Cape. Once again, your uninformed opinion is falsified by direct personal experience.

Now, please address my last post.
Seriously. You are saying there is no plume of smoke during a rocket launch?
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:12 PM   #797
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Seriously. You are saying there is no plume of smoke during a rocket launch?
No that's not what he's saying. Your misconception regarding whether the video depicted smoke was addressed earlier. Try to keep up.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:13 PM   #798
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Seriously. You are saying there is no plume of smoke during a rocket launch?
Hi there!
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:26 PM   #799
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes, but I was referring mostly to this. Downward-looking onboard cameras often have view angles such that the bulk of the stage blocks a view of the exhaust trail, if any. Gingervytes is fixating on this to avoid having to deal with the plethora of examples posted where there is plenty of smoke visible, if that's what he desires.

He has also claimed the flame doesn't look "natural," but has similarly failed to say why. A fool's errand, so long as his ignorant layman's opinion is the standard we must measure correctness against.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 01:29 PM   #800
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Here you go, Gingervytes. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...4#post12673814 Plenty of smoke, if that's what you're looking for, and a vantage point from the ground all the way to functional vacuum. As well as some science for you to chew on, if you think you have the chops.
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