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22nd May 2019, 10:26 AM | #2641 |
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Low hanging fruit.
To recap this thread: OP features bad math and makes an inaccurate statement based on this bad math. When confronted with facts, the author disputes those facts with counter claims that amount to something like "Nah ah". Along the way the he demonstrates ignorance of basic physics, chemistry, history, and how NASA does, and does not work. A clear example is the claims of CGI in the many videos linked on this thread. Rockets have been around since the year 1232, the first liquid fueled rocket was launched in 1926, and from there we had the V-2, and the evolution of rocketry through the post-war era. 2D CGI has been around since 1972, and has only become seamless in the last 15 years or so. There are a lot of smart, educated people posting on this thread who would rather build a rocket than render images on a computer because building a rocket is easier, and much more productive even if it's just an Estes model rocket. Bottom Line: Rockets work in the vacuum of space. This is not theoretical science, this is fact. Not believing this fact indicates an intellectual character flaw. |
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Disingenuous Piranha |
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22nd May 2019, 10:51 AM | #2642 |
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
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A man's best friend is his dogma. |
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22nd May 2019, 11:19 AM | #2643 |
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"If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker |
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22nd May 2019, 11:49 AM | #2644 |
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22nd May 2019, 12:00 PM | #2645 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Which makes it all the more amusing when he declares that he won't accept video evidence from anyone else, on the abstract grounds that it could be gimmicked or faked. Remember how he bristled when I suggested the scales could have been doctored to read anything he wished. Now that's certainly possible, and it would take me very little time to rig up something like that as a theater/film prop. But the point I was trying to make was that he applied a double standard to his video evidence versus other video evidence. Maybe I should have poked harder, now that his deception is revealed.
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22nd May 2019, 02:22 PM | #2646 |
Penultimate Amazing
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An inability to understand what a single gas molecule is !
The question was Imagine a single gas molecule travelling through vacuum. How much force does the vacuum exert on the molecule from Mojo. Pressure Gradient Force Calculator is the pressure of a gas. A gas is a really high number of molecules! The link talks about air and kilometers so it is probably weather related, e.g. the flow of air between high and low pressure areas. I think we call this wind . This link emphasizes the "pressure gradient force" part of the rockets do not work in space (because they do not have anything to push against) delusion as stated here and in a video. A pressure gradient force exists within a gas. It moves the gas from "areas of high pressure (H) to areas of low pressure (L)". What this says is that the high pressure caused by burning propellant in a rocket engine + the low pressure at the rocket nozzle forces the gas out of the engine chamber. This is blinding obvious to anyone who has seen a skyrocket or rocket launch! For a rocket in space, the equation in the link gives a pressure gradient force inside the propellant gas proportional to the pressure in the rocket chamber. |
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NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
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22nd May 2019, 02:29 PM | #2648 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Do you understand that the OP image has obvious ignorance or lies
22 May 2019 Gingervytes: Do you understand [yet] that the OP image has obvious ignorance or lies?
This is high science level science of looking at the dimensions of the equation in the OP (dimensional analysis) that author of that video is ignorant about or lies about. You may have ignored the science when you wrote the OP and included that massively ignorant or blatantly lying image sourced from the video. Do you understand how ignorant or lying the author of that video is now? |
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NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
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22nd May 2019, 02:43 PM | #2649 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Gingervytes: What makes the demonstrations in that YouTube video not faked
Which brings up a question for Gingervytes: What makes the demonstrations in that YouTube video not faked?
There will be no answer but it is obvious. Gingervytes became a believer in an impossible conspiracy. Anything Gingervytes finds supporting that conspiracy is not faked even if it is full of ignorance, lies or possible fraud (hiding that 9 V battery). Anything that debunks that conspiracy is be faked or lies, e.g. the Apollo images and videos, images and videos of rockets working in space, the terabytes? of data from spacecraft, astronauts have to be liars, telemetry from spacecraft showing them changing course in space, GPS and Internet infrastructure (satellites!), etc. etc. Hiding the extra ballast is close to fraud. An honest person would have stated that extra ballast was added, e.g. to ease dunking of the container. |
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NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
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22nd May 2019, 02:45 PM | #2650 |
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Let's assume the OP is running over to Above Top Secret, reading the
It's the only explanation I can think of for this ongoing comedic theatrical production. |
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"Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips |
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22nd May 2019, 05:51 PM | #2651 |
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We all hate poverty, war, and injustice Unlike the rest of you squares. Tom Lehrer - Folk Song Army |
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22nd May 2019, 07:50 PM | #2652 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Of course he doesn't. Not believing rockets work in space is an extension of this flat Earth beliefs and no one really holds those. Some people just want to be the train wreck the rest of us can't look away from.
Watch the Netflix documentary on Flat Earthers. The mayor of Flat Earth Town or head of their movement lives, and I'm not making this up, in his mom's basement. Flat Earthers and their, "rockets don't work" fellow travelers aren't real. They don't actually exist. They spout off because being irrelevant and living in mom's basement is to harsh a reality to conceive of. They create their manufactured smugness as a balm for the failure of their lives. Fear not, no one in this thread, not even the OP actually thinks rockets don't work in space. |
22nd May 2019, 08:07 PM | #2653 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Mostly true, however there exists a small subset of genuine believers. Shocking, I know, that anyone could be that idiotic, but there it is. Which camp our protagonist falls into is up for guesses, but given the posting pattern I would suggest he is not one of the rare believers in an idiotic idea. His posting frequency hockey-sticked downward the moment he glommed onto the fact that nobody was buying the notion, and we had sufficient expertise available to sink it as a viable idea.
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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23rd May 2019, 12:31 AM | #2654 |
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How does the Flat Earther explain satellite TV? How do they explain that as you go further and further south (or further and further North in the Southern Hemisphere) that the elevation angle of people's satellite dish increases?
This is the really stupid thing about the Flat Earth conspiracy. This is not like JFK Conspiracy, or 9/11 Conspiracy, or Apollo Hoax Conspiracy, where what happened is in the past, and you need to have some faith in experts and the records and the investigations into what happened. Flat Earth conspiracy is NOW, you can debunk it yourself with your own observations. Anyone who lives in a port city can watch a departing ship disappear over the horizon as it sails away; watch the water level appear to rise up as it does so until you can only see the superstructure, and eventually, even that disappears. Anyone who has travelled to the other hemisphere (and I guess if you've lived all your life in your Mummy's basement, that might be unlikely) cannot help but notice that the sun travels "the other way" across the sky, and passes over the other pole. |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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23rd May 2019, 02:48 AM | #2655 |
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"If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker |
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23rd May 2019, 07:15 AM | #2656 |
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23rd May 2019, 11:05 AM | #2657 |
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The secret NASA doesn't want you to know - God makes rockets work in space. |
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23rd May 2019, 07:36 PM | #2658 |
Penultimate Amazing
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I've just watched live video of a rocket propelling in a vacuum. Either that or the PTB's are going to a LOT of effort and have many thousands of people enlisted in their deception.
Oh, BTW, GV: Have you figured out yet how pressure increases at the bottom of a ship? |
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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23rd May 2019, 08:18 PM | #2659 |
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23rd May 2019, 08:31 PM | #2660 |
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I should go see if his thread at CQ has been reopened again.
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Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant. |
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23rd May 2019, 08:56 PM | #2661 |
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Just watched the deployment. A big blob of 60 satellites just slowly drifting apart...
Notably, SpaceX has done several launches in lighting conditions that put the stage separation in sunlight after the sun had set at the launch site. These give great views of the changing plume shapes as the rocket moves into thin atmosphere, the stages separate and their exhausts interact (so far something unique to SpaceX launches), and the second stage accelerates past its own exhaust velocity into vacuum, causing the airspeed of the exhaust to drop to near zero briefly just as the plume starts to expand into an enormous space jellyfish...all in plain view of anyone looking up. So where do those jellyfish come from, super-secret holographic projectors? |
23rd May 2019, 08:59 PM | #2662 |
Penultimate Amazing
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There was also the Flat Earth Rocket Man last year who seems have been surprisingly silent about his results. It is almost as if during his flight to 1,875 feet he recorded new features appear over the horizon and maybe recorded a curved horizon .
More recent weirdness from Mad Mike. A plan to go to the Antarctic to find the edge of the world as if he were abysmally ignorant about Antarctic expeditions and the people living there. Or maybe paranoid about no one reporting they fell over the edge. Another rocket, this time to the edge of space. He may be ignorant of the large cost of building such a rocket. Some craziness: a April 05, 2019 article where he plans a May 9 launch (presumably 2019)! |
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NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter (another observation) (and Abell 520) Electric comets still do not exist! |
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23rd May 2019, 09:55 PM | #2663 |
Penultimate Amazing
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He doesn't need to figure it out. He can just deny it. Unless he has gone under water and tested the pressure on the hull of a ship, he cannot know, because the physics of such things are all wrong, all those who claim to observe reality are liars, their instruments, images and measurements fraudulent, their dreadful secrets guarded by an all powerful conspiracy which has already been shown to reach to the midst of the ocean, the poles, and the remotest deserts and jungles, with technology so marvelous, complex, expensive and sophisticated that ordinary people might be forgiven for believing it cannot exist. Given his account so far of things that are common knowledge, this is the only possibility, since to believe otherwise would be crazily inconsistent.
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Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) |
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23rd May 2019, 10:18 PM | #2664 |
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23rd May 2019, 11:42 PM | #2665 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Or........
He is just a troll. Occam says that is how it should be cut. |
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...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015 |
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24th May 2019, 12:43 AM | #2666 |
Penultimate Amazing
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24th May 2019, 02:51 AM | #2667 |
Penultimate Amazing
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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24th May 2019, 04:02 AM | #2668 |
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No, because all the windows in airplanes are specially ground to create the illusion of a round earth.
I would like to see him ask Sir Ran Fiennes (who crossed Antarctica) about his supply needs. But then he would just count the man off as Another One Of The Eeebil Conspirators. |
24th May 2019, 05:03 AM | #2669 |
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Thanks, that put the final piece of the puzzle in place for me. It was already easy to see how the converging-diverging shape would exchange the random component of the molecules' velocity for the linear component directed outwards (or in thermodynamic terms, exchange the gas pressure for flow velocity) but I wasn't yet sure why the subsonic/supersonic thing was so important. But yes, it means pressure differences can't travel backwards through a (super)sonic flow and you can hence up the pressure in the thrust chamber without being bothered by the vacuum outside.
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24th May 2019, 07:07 AM | #2670 |
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24th May 2019, 09:31 AM | #2671 |
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Yeah. It flies at a significant angle of attack on the way down, and it was quite interesting seeing bits of soot/ablative material blown off the base flash into incandescence as they passed through the relatively sheltered grid fin on the left, while the air passing through the fin on the right itself heated enough to visibly glow.
The first stage gets right up to the point where things get fiery on return, and the aluminum grid fins got pretty tattered on the high-energy reentries. And that's at a fraction of orbital velocity...they've got their work cut out for them with their goals for Starship. |
24th May 2019, 09:52 AM | #2672 |
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I think it's in part based on poor popular science descriptions of a perfect vacuum as being something impossible to attain, leaving them with the impression that suction continues to increase without bound, not understanding that "suction" is just an absence of pressure and the difficulties in achieving high vacuum are of a completely different nature.
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24th May 2019, 11:51 AM | #2673 |
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24th May 2019, 12:25 PM | #2674 |
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The grid fins are not aluminum anymore. Around the time they started building the block 5 version of the Falcon 9 they switched to titanium since the aluminum eroded too much. The titanium is retained for future launches.
Not sure there is any ablative material used on the rocket. The re-entry burn is there to slow them down enough to enter the atmosphere at near the speed of sound removing the need for that sort of thing. I suspect the paint is what we saw there. Information about grid fins and re-entry learned from the Everyday Astronaut YouTube channel run by a guy named Tim Dodd. |
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45 es un titere |
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24th May 2019, 12:44 PM | #2675 |
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24th May 2019, 12:55 PM | #2676 |
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24th May 2019, 01:35 PM | #2677 |
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
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A man's best friend is his dogma. |
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24th May 2019, 02:10 PM | #2678 |
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24th May 2019, 05:03 PM | #2679 |
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I know they use titanium now, I was pointing out that the reentries were sometimes too much for the aluminum ones. They enter at considerably greater than the speed of sound despite the reentry burn...it makes things a lot easier, but doesn't entirely remove the need to deal with heating.
They previously had layers of a fibrous material in some areas that were notably eroded after hot reentries. Block 5 added water-cooled titanium structures in the base, but an ablative layer is a simple solution for parts that don't need that much, and one that they've got experience with. And I don't think there's any painted portions that are particularly exposed to reentry stresses. Keep in mind that being ablative doesn't mean it has to be replaced every flight (or even often, especially if originally designed for reentries from orbit), and it wouldn't take much erosion to produce material for those sparks. |
24th May 2019, 06:09 PM | #2680 |
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Dear Gingervytes,
Please use math to explain why these events did not happen. 1) SpaceX Launches 60 Starlink Satellites on Thrice-Flown Rocket, Sticks Landing https://www.space.com/spacex-launche...atellites.html 2) A Rocket Built By Students Reached Space For the First Time https://www.wired.com/story/a-rocket...he-first-time/ |
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I'm an "intellectual giant, with access to wilkipedia [sic]" "I believe in some ways; communicating with afterlife is easier than communicating with me." -Tim4848 who said he would no longer post here, twice in fact, but he did. |
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