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Old 11th October 2017, 09:39 AM   #1481
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Another historically accurate, if steeped in pop culture, video:
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I AGREE



This one had some history about the origin of the Lost Cause mythology, itself, that I was unaware of.
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Old 12th October 2017, 11:29 AM   #1482
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
FWIW
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I AGREE
I can't help but notice how weak and subdued the audience laughter throughout this segment is compared to a typical show. Or does it just seem that way to me?
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Old 20th October 2017, 09:45 AM   #1483
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Cue outrage in 3...2...1...

Mississippi elementary school named after Jefferson Davis is renamed after President Obama.

Quote:
An elementary school in Mississippi is switching out the president of the Confederacy for the first black president.
Davis Elementary School in Jackson will be renamed Barack Obama Elementary School for the next school year.

The decision was made by the community, but I'm sure that won't matter.

Quote:
The school was named for Jefferson Davis decades ago, says CNN affiliate WAPT. But parents at the school, which is 98% African-American, proposed renaming the school to honor America's 44th president.

The switch was made possible after the board of the mostly-black Jackson Public School District decided last month it would allow the community and school PTAs the option to rename schools that were named for Confederate leaders.
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Old 20th October 2017, 11:55 AM   #1484
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Cue outrage in 3...2...1...

Mississippi elementary school named after Jefferson Davis is renamed after President Obama.

The decision was made by the community, but I'm sure that won't matter.
I'm against it, but only because it violates my personal rule about not naming any public buildings (or streets, etc) after someone still living. Sadly, I don't get to name many public buildings.
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Old 20th October 2017, 11:59 AM   #1485
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The story is wrong: Bill Clinton was the first black president.
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Old 20th October 2017, 03:36 PM   #1486
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I think I finally get how Obama was seen as divisive. From afar and listening to his speeches, that seemed utterly ridiculous. Quite possible to have serious policy differences, but, "divisive?" I should've realized the following was the case sooner, as the data was there:
Quote:
Think: Three year’s later, Obama was re-elected despite being crushed by Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney among every white American demographic. As Ron Brownstein explained in an election analysis for The Atlantic the following September:

“In 2012, Obama won a smaller share of white Catholics than any Democrat since Jimmy Carter in 1980; lost groups ranging from white seniors to white women to white married and blue-collar men by the widest margin of any Democrat since Ronald Reagan routed Walter Mondale in 1984; and even lost among Democratic-leaning college-educated women by the widest margin since Michael Dukakis in 1988.”

Yet Obama won re-election by a convincing 5 million votes. Even more than in 2008, his victory demonstrated the power of a non-white constituency to do the once-impossible: deliver the White House, twice.
Is this why all the panic and the torches around CSA monuments?

... I've autocensored the rest so many times, no sense trying again. However, it was loads of fun to write, erase, do another take, then yet another, and so on. Sigh.
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Old 20th October 2017, 04:20 PM   #1487
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The story is wrong: Bill Clinton was the first black president.
Oh yeah. I forgot about that.
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Old 20th October 2017, 04:26 PM   #1488
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I think I finally get how Obama was seen as divisive. [...].
There is a cup of warm cocoa waiting for you in the corner, grandpaw. Have some.
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Old 20th October 2017, 08:48 PM   #1489
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Is this why all the panic and the torches around CSA monuments?
No - well yes, but only consequentially. The circumstances of Obama's victory were less important than his race, and the very public swell of empowerment that minorities expressed in the aftermath.
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Old 20th October 2017, 10:38 PM   #1490
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No - well yes, but only consequentially. The circumstances of Obama's victory were less important than his race, and the very public swell of empowerment that minorities expressed in the aftermath.

Yeah. You can't blame the White Power racists and bigots for being terrified by that.

They were overwhelmed with visions of being treated the way they have historically and consistently treated those minorities.

I'd be scared, too.
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Old 20th October 2017, 10:41 PM   #1491
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Originally Posted by GodMark2 View Post
I'm against it, but only because it violates my personal rule about not naming any public buildings (or streets, etc) after someone still living. Sadly, I don't get to name many public buildings.
There shouldn't be public schools. If we are going to have them, we shouldn't name them after people. The government should not be telling us who is notable. That is for me and my family to decide.
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Old 20th October 2017, 11:11 PM   #1492
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Yeah. You can't blame the White Power racists and bigots for being terrified by that.

They were overwhelmed with visions of being treated the way they have historically and consistently treated those minorities.

I'd be scared, too.
I bet you have some political explanation as to why your victimology is more pitiful than other, more recent victimologies.
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Old 21st October 2017, 01:49 AM   #1493
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
I bet you have some political explanation as to why your victimology is more pitiful than other, more recent victimologies.
Because there are still victims of the Jim Crow laws alive?
By the time you have gone to a segregated college, you have missed many of the opportunities. Of course some gifted, and hard working, and lucky people manage, but they had far more of a struggle than if their opportunities hadn't been systematically penalised beforehand.
Because there is evidence that Blacks are still being discriminated against?
If you are living in Ferguson, and the police are targeting you as a revenue stream, arresting you solely for resisting arrest, or a multitude of ill-defined misdemeanours, that ratchet up fines worth thousands of dollars, and make it hard to keep a job down, then it's going to be hard to escape.
Because the president thinks that racists are good people?


Because, regardless of the mechanism, there is an inbuilt advantage in both Congress, and especially the Senate and the electoral college for the party promoting discriminatory policies?
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Old 21st October 2017, 02:09 AM   #1494
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
I bet you have some political explanation as to why your victimology is more pitiful than other, more recent victimologies.

Nothing political, no. White Power racists and bigots simply are more pitiful. Imagining themselves to be oppressed when all the advantages are in their court.

Nothing political about it. It is an integral part of their world view.

If it wasn't for their inherent lack of any redeeming qualities one might even feel a little bit sorry for them, in the sense of a touch of concern, but due to that absence, pity is about all that can be managed.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 21st October 2017 at 02:11 AM.
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Old 21st October 2017, 02:40 AM   #1495
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There shouldn't be public schools. If we are going to have them, we shouldn't name them after people. The government should not be telling us who is notable. That is for me and my family to decide.
I take it there shouldn't be public schools because only you are responsible for your family's education. But in that case why are you letting your family decide who is notable? You are responsible for educating your family, so you alone should decide who is notable, and if your family don't agree you should just whip their goddam ass.
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Old 21st October 2017, 05:03 AM   #1496
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Originally Posted by GodMark2 View Post
I'm against it, but only because it violates my personal rule about not naming any public buildings (or streets, etc) after someone still living. Sadly, I don't get to name many public buildings.
I'm kind of with you on that. Almost turns living people into a sort of royalty.

That said, nothing but a particularly nasty public toilet in a predominately Africa American community should be named after Jefferson Davis.

Last edited by Craig4; 21st October 2017 at 05:13 AM.
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Old 21st October 2017, 05:12 AM   #1497
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I think I finally get how Obama was seen as divisive. From afar and listening to his speeches, that seemed utterly ridiculous. Quite possible to have serious policy differences, but, "divisive?" I should've realized the following was the case sooner, as the data was there:


Is this why all the panic and the torches around CSA monuments?

... I've autocensored the rest so many times, no sense trying again. However, it was loads of fun to write, erase, do another take, then yet another, and so on. Sigh.
Texas and Florida are getting browner by the day.
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Old 21st October 2017, 08:02 AM   #1498
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Texas and Florida are getting browner by the day.

Good Ol' One Drop Rule.

The bigots planted the seeds of their own destruction with that one.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:02 AM   #1499
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Is this why all the panic and the torches around CSA monuments?

... I've autocensored the rest so many times, no sense trying again. However, it was loads of fun to write, erase, do another take, then yet another, and so on. Sigh.
However, you finally got it. And everyone who studied history knew, as soon as Obama was elected the first time, that we would see a backlash. It's what always happens when black people, in particular, advance in society. There's a certain segment of white America that absolutely needs to think that they're better than black person...

Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Yeah. You can't blame the White Power racists and bigots for being terrified by that.

They were overwhelmed with visions of being treated the way they have historically and consistently treated those minorities.

I'd be scared, too.
...consider this. Trump's entry into post-2000 US politics was based not on any sort of political philosophy of set of policies, but on the following assertions:

1) Despite giving more evidence than any other president, Obama is not an American;

2) despite clearly being a highly intelligent person, Obama could not possibly have been qualified for the colleges he attended, jumping in line ahead of more qualified (white) offspring of Trump's friends;

3) despite having graduated with honors, Obama could not possibly have received good grades;

4) Despite a clear mastery of the English language, Obama must have had a white man, Bill Ayers, write his first book;

5) Despite taking few vacation days, Obama must not be working hard enough to be a good president, preferring to play golf or basketball.

And this is why birtherism is plainly racist - it's merely one of a laundry list of racist assertions that go back over a century in the US. These things were said of Dred Scott, Frederick Douglass, MLK, and every other black man who moved society forward. It's about as subtle as Birth of a Nation. All you need is an assertion that Obama is a "thug" who wants to rape women, and we'd have every major stereotype in the book.

But they're also, often, reflections of the people who assert them. Trump has always been desperate for acceptance into Manhatten high society - who had him read as a vulgar conman decades ago (much as he was known as a racist decades ago in Brooklyn - that saying that people only started calling him racist when he ran for office is ridiculous). His father bought his ticket into college, and into real estate, where he constantly failed - a man clearly unqualified for his position. He barely reads, and hires ghostwriters for all of his books. As president, he chews through taxpayer money with his constant golfing trips and extended vacations.

It's always projection. They decided to divide themselves off. These folks need their falsehoods in times like the Obama era, because they can't bear the simply truth that there's a black guy in the world who did better in life than they did. And that's why these statues are where they decide to hold their violent hate rallies - the statues are the only proof of their superiority they have, and so they must be protected at all costs.

Now, it's true that there are *also* people who simply enjoy tradition, or who object to the supposed erasure of what they mistakenly think is history, don't get me wrong. But the above is reflective of the motivations of white supremacists like the current fool in the White House.
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Old 22nd October 2017, 05:10 AM   #1500
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
However, you finally got it. And everyone who studied history knew, as soon as Obama was elected the first time, that we would see a backlash. It's what always happens when black people, in particular, advance in society. There's a certain segment of white America that absolutely needs to think that they're better than black person...



...consider this. Trump's entry into post-2000 US politics was based not on any sort of political philosophy of set of policies, but on the following assertions:

1) Despite giving more evidence than any other president, Obama is not an American;

2) despite clearly being a highly intelligent person, Obama could not possibly have been qualified for the colleges he attended, jumping in line ahead of more qualified (white) offspring of Trump's friends;

3) despite having graduated with honors, Obama could not possibly have received good grades;

4) Despite a clear mastery of the English language, Obama must have had a white man, Bill Ayers, write his first book;

5) Despite taking few vacation days, Obama must not be working hard enough to be a good president, preferring to play golf or basketball.

And this is why birtherism is plainly racist - it's merely one of a laundry list of racist assertions that go back over a century in the US. These things were said of Dred Scott, Frederick Douglass, MLK, and every other black man who moved society forward. It's about as subtle as Birth of a Nation. All you need is an assertion that Obama is a "thug" who wants to rape women, and we'd have every major stereotype in the book.

But they're also, often, reflections of the people who assert them. Trump has always been desperate for acceptance into Manhatten high society - who had him read as a vulgar conman decades ago (much as he was known as a racist decades ago in Brooklyn - that saying that people only started calling him racist when he ran for office is ridiculous). His father bought his ticket into college, and into real estate, where he constantly failed - a man clearly unqualified for his position. He barely reads, and hires ghostwriters for all of his books. As president, he chews through taxpayer money with his constant golfing trips and extended vacations.

It's always projection. They decided to divide themselves off. These folks need their falsehoods in times like the Obama era, because they can't bear the simply truth that there's a black guy in the world who did better in life than they did. And that's why these statues are where they decide to hold their violent hate rallies - the statues are the only proof of their superiority they have, and so they must be protected at all costs.

Now, it's true that there are *also* people who simply enjoy tradition, or who object to the supposed erasure of what they mistakenly think is history, don't get me wrong. But the above is reflective of the motivations of white supremacists like the current fool in the White House.

Mentioning the "thug" aspect is quite illuminating, because, apart from your example #1, a dispassionate observer would conclude they all apply more to Trump than Obama (and point #1 applies equally well to both).
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Old 23rd October 2017, 03:13 AM   #1501
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I take it there shouldn't be public schools because only you are responsible for your family's education. But in that case why are you letting your family decide who is notable? You are responsible for educating your family, so you alone should decide who is notable, and if your family don't agree you should just whip their goddam ass.
Which is why we need more hilter high schools because he really is such an important historic figure he deserves to have many monuments to him and buildings named after him.
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Old 23rd October 2017, 08:20 AM   #1502
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Originally Posted by GodMark2 View Post
I'm against it, but only because it violates my personal rule about not naming any public buildings (or streets, etc) after someone still living. Sadly, I don't get to name many public buildings.
Agreed. We have a local park that was named after a major donors kid. That is just ********** up.

- Hey, Klyde Warren, nice to meet you.
- You mean like the park?
- Yeah, that's me.

I suppose being a billionaire's son is tough, too.
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Old 24th October 2017, 06:02 AM   #1503
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Agreed. We have a local park that was named after a major donors kid. That is just ********** up.

- Hey, Klyde Warren, nice to meet you.
- You mean like the park?
- Yeah, that's me.

I suppose being a billionaire's son is tough, too.
Seems to have been like buying naming rights and forcing the kid to do public service:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelcy_Warren
Quote:
In 2012, Warren donated $10 million to help build a park in downtown Dallas, Texas and named it for his son. As part of the contract, his son cleans up trash from the park once a month.
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Old 24th October 2017, 06:05 AM   #1504
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Don't think anybody posted this yet, the one and only confederate memorial in Massachusetts is going to be taken down and sent to the state archives.
http://www.umassmedia.com/news/massa...6e2f8661d.html
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Old 24th October 2017, 05:42 PM   #1505
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
Seems to have been like buying naming rights and forcing the kid to do public service:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelcy_Warren
His son was 10 years old at the time and had no legal rights; so I'm a little curious how this "contract" doesn't amount to indentured servitude.
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Old 24th October 2017, 08:46 PM   #1506
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
His son was 10 years old at the time and had no legal rights; so I'm a little curious how this "contract" doesn't amount to indentured servitude.
I'd be more concerned about his naming the kid "Klyde", which is tantamount to child abuse.
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Old 25th October 2017, 12:58 AM   #1507
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
Don't think anybody posted this yet, the one and only confederate memorial in Massachusetts is going to be taken down and sent to the state archives.
http://www.umassmedia.com/news/massa...6e2f8661d.html
I must say that I'm opposed to this action. A memorial to thirteen soldiers who died in custody on Georges Island strikes me as appropriate. I haven't seen the memorial, but so long as it was respectful without glorifying, I think it should have remained.
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Old 25th October 2017, 02:54 AM   #1508
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I'd be more concerned about his naming the kid "Klyde", which is tantamount to child abuse.

In Texas?
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Old 25th October 2017, 02:57 AM   #1509
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I must say that I'm opposed to this action. A memorial to thirteen soldiers who died in custody on Georges Island strikes me as appropriate. I haven't seen the memorial, but so long as it was respectful without glorifying, I think it should have remained.

I wonder how many memorials to Union soldiers who died while incarcerated by the Confederacy were set up by the United Daughters of the Confederacy during the backlash to the Civil Rights Act.
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Old 25th October 2017, 06:51 AM   #1510
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I wonder how many memorials to Union soldiers who died while incarcerated by the Confederacy were set up by the United Daughters of the Confederacy during the backlash to the Civil Rights Act.
Fair enough.

I'm not settled on my position and I can understand that reasonable folk can disagree about this memorial.
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Old 25th October 2017, 10:51 AM   #1511
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I wonder how many memorials to Union soldiers who died while incarcerated by the Confederacy were set up by the United Daughters of the Confederacy during the backlash to the Civil Rights Act.
That's kind of a strange application of tu quo que.

I mean, seriously... how many monuments has the US put up honoring the German soldiers that died while incarcerated by Allied troops during WW2? See - doesn't really make any sense as an argument.
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Old 25th October 2017, 11:04 AM   #1512
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's kind of a strange application of tu quo que.

I mean, seriously... how many monuments has the US put up honoring the German soldiers that died while incarcerated by Allied troops during WW2? See - doesn't really make any sense as an argument.

Honestly, it seems a little like the "They can build it when there's a church or synagogue in Riyadh" argument that was used when opposing the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque". "We shouldn't be any better than them" isn't a strong argument.
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Old 25th October 2017, 11:18 AM   #1513
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's kind of a strange application of tu quo que.

I mean, seriously... how many monuments has the US put up honoring the German soldiers that died while incarcerated by Allied troops during WW2? See - doesn't really make any sense as an argument.
I've made a long record of disagreeing with Emily's Cat on this thread, but on this particular point I'm inclined to agree, at least provisionally (not having seen the memorial in question). If the memorial is to glorify the Confederacy and tout the injustice of having Confederate prisoners, then yes, down it should come. If it's simply to memorialize people who died, where they died, then whether or not it should have gone up, I would not spend any energy taking it down. If it's to memorialize people who died under Union care who should not have, then we ought to keep it, no matter how notoriously bad the record of the Confederacy was by comparison.
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Old 25th October 2017, 12:20 PM   #1514
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's kind of a strange application of tu quo que.

I mean, seriously... how many monuments has the US put up honoring the German soldiers that died while incarcerated by Allied troops during WW2? See - doesn't really make any sense as an argument.

It wasn't "the U.S." who put it up.

It was the Daughters of the Confederacy ... as a response to the Civil Rights Act.
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Old 25th October 2017, 12:21 PM   #1515
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I've made a long record of disagreeing with Emily's Cat on this thread, but on this particular point I'm inclined to agree, at least provisionally (not having seen the memorial in question). If the memorial is to glorify the Confederacy and tout the injustice of having Confederate prisoners, then yes, down it should come. If it's simply to memorialize people who died, where they died, then whether or not it should have gone up, I would not spend any energy taking it down. If it's to memorialize people who died under Union care who should not have, then we ought to keep it, no matter how notoriously bad the record of the Confederacy was by comparison.

That one.
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Old 25th October 2017, 02:26 PM   #1516
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
That one.
OK, I just googled the monument. I don't mind a monument commemorating the death of prisoners, but this one ain't that. Down with it. Aside from its prominent display of an emblem of the Confederate States of America, as if such an institution legitimately existed, it does not mention anywhere that these were prisoners of war, implying by its language that they were simply "confederates." I am not ready to apologize for being hastily charitable, but for being hasty, maybe. To hell with this stuff. I should have known better.
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Old 25th October 2017, 02:47 PM   #1517
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's kind of a strange application of tu quo que.

I mean, seriously... how many monuments has the US put up honoring the German soldiers that died while incarcerated by Allied troops during WW2? See - doesn't really make any sense as an argument.
It's not a tu quo to point out the absurdity of something by providing an example of that same absurdity in a different context.
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Old 25th October 2017, 02:50 PM   #1518
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Honestly, it seems a little like the "They can build it when there's a church or synagogue in Riyadh" argument that was used when opposing the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque". "We shouldn't be any better than them" isn't a strong argument.
Except that there never was a "Ground Zero Mosque", because A) it wasn't at Ground Zero, and B) it wasn't a mosque.

That was a fabrication manufactured by bigots.
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Old 25th October 2017, 02:52 PM   #1519
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Except that there never was a "Ground Zero Mosque", because A) it wasn't at Ground Zero, and B) it wasn't a mosque.

That was a fabrication manufactured by bigots.

That's why I said "so-called". I was originally going to include, "...which was neither a mosque, nor at Ground Zero", but I didn't think it was necessary.

Also, I missed that it was a pro-Confederate group that put up the monument, which made me misinterpret quadraginta's statement, so my comparison isn't valid.

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Old 25th October 2017, 03:00 PM   #1520
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
OK, I just googled the monument. I don't mind a monument commemorating the death of prisoners, but this one ain't that. Down with it. Aside from its prominent display of an emblem of the Confederate States of America, as if such an institution legitimately existed, it does not mention anywhere that these were prisoners of war, implying by its language that they were simply "confederates." I am not ready to apologize for being hastily charitable, but for being hasty, maybe. To hell with this stuff. I should have known better.
I confess that I'm not at all outraged by the wording on that monument.

But if that monument caused distress to visitors of the national park, then I'm okay with its removal. I'm not sure if this was the case, but if so, then it ought to be moved.
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