ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags black lives matter , Minnesota incidents , police misconduct charges , police shootings , protest incidents , shooting incidents

Reply
Old 29th November 2015, 03:10 PM   #81
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 3,678
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
...the large number of people who openly advocate killing nonviolent black people.
I'd be interested in how large you imagine this number to be as a percentage of the US population.

Of course, any sort of evidence whatsoever would also be appreciated.
__________________
I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2015, 03:35 PM   #82
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,677
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Exactly. These are two completely different problems, with completely different causes, and need to be addressed in completely different ways.

The majority of black-on-black violence is gang-related, and tied to poverty, the drug trade, systematic oppression, community values, and so on. It's a highly complex problem that needs to be addressed from many different angles, and with many different resources.

Institutional racism against black people is a separate, though related, problem. And it is actually a contributor to the conditions which enable black-on-black violence to proliferate. It marginalizes black people, and teaches them a distrust of mainstream institutions, especially law enforcement. It is one of a number of factors that need to be addressed in order to address the overall problem.

That's why the "well black people kill black people, so therefore we shouldn't care about police killing black people" is not only sheer nonsense, it is outright racist in and of itself. Racist violence and mistreatment by the institutions which are supposed to be keeping the peace and enforcing the law undermines and negates efforts by those same institutions to address the problem of violence in black communities.
Very well said.

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2015, 03:45 PM   #83
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 3,678
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Exactly. These are two completely different problems, with completely different causes, and need to be addressed in completely different ways.

The majority of black-on-black violence is gang-related, and tied to poverty, the drug trade, systematic oppression, community values, and so on. It's a highly complex problem that needs to be addressed from many different angles, and with many different resources.

Institutional racism against black people is a separate, though related, problem. And it is actually a contributor to the conditions which enable black-on-black violence to proliferate. It marginalizes black people, and teaches them a distrust of mainstream institutions, especially law enforcement. It is one of a number of factors that need to be addressed in order to address the overall problem.

That's why the "well black people kill black people, so therefore we shouldn't care about police killing black people" is not only sheer nonsense, it is outright racist in and of itself. Racist violence and mistreatment by the institutions which are supposed to be keeping the peace and enforcing the law undermines and negates efforts by those same institutions to address the problem of violence in black communities.
Yes, but none of this addresses or answers why the BLM people seem to care so little about the first problem. I mean, c'mon...if you look at what they're about on their website they now go on about "transexual affirming" and "queer affirming" and so on. Given these broad concerns it seems somewhat suspicious that they're so unconcerned with the large amount of black on black crime. Seems like they're very, very specific about what they're (pretending to be) concerned about.

Quote:
That's why the "well black people kill black people, so therefore we shouldn't care about police killing black people" is not only sheer nonsense...
You're right! it's also a big straw man drummed up by you and Mycroft!
__________________
I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2015, 03:47 PM   #84
Bogative
Graduate Poster
 
Bogative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,251
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The BLM movement will always be covered in a patina of hypocrisy as long as they keep ignoring the black-on-black violence that kills far more innocent people a year than racist cops. Black lives only seem to matter when they're killed by whites.
Exactly. There have been 285 black homicide victims in Baltimore this year, they only rioted over one.
Bogative is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2015, 04:05 PM   #85
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,677
Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Exactly. There have been 285 black homicide victims in Baltimore this year, they only rioted over one.
Freddie Gray was murdered by the police. That sets him apart from the other 284 black homicides.

I think an overall high murder rate is a completely different issue from the police murdering people. Both are real problems, both need to be addressed, and neither problem takes away from the other.

An organization that focuses on one problem is not discredited for not also focusing on the other. There are lots of problems with the world, tackling them one at a time is still tackling them.


Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2015, 04:19 PM   #86
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 3,678
They should probably just change their name to "only a really small subset of black lives matter".
__________________
I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2015, 04:25 PM   #87
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,326
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Freddie Gray was murdered by the police. That sets him apart from the other 284 black homicides.
More importantly, pretty much everyone in the area agrees that the weekday rioting only started, after weeks of normal protests, when the city shut down a local transportation hub based on an internet rumor, effectively trapping students who were trying to get home. Even the city itself has acknowledged this as an issue.

Again, that doesn't excuse the rioters, particularly the people who weren't at the initial scene, but the simple truth is that there had been daily protests for days, and it was always either poor judgement by public officials, or in one previous case drunken baseball fans, that caused things to go downhill.

And before anyone says it, there's a major difference between unarmed protestors shutting down a mall to draw attention to a likely string of injustices, and an armed police forced backed by the government shutting down an area in response to an internet rumor.

Last edited by Mumbles; 29th November 2015 at 04:28 PM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2015, 04:29 PM   #88
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,677
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Yes, but none of this addresses or answers why the BLM people seem to care so little about the first problem. I mean, c'mon...if you look at what they're about on their website they now go on about "transexual affirming" and "queer affirming" and so on. Given these broad concerns it seems somewhat suspicious that they're so unconcerned with the large amount of black on black crime. Seems like they're very, very specific about what they're (pretending to be) concerned about.



You're right! it's also a big straw man drummed up by you and Mycroft!
I think the real question should be how you feel about their core issue. These other issues look like red herrings to me.

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2015, 04:32 PM   #89
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 3,678
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I think the real question should be how you feel about their core issue. These other issues look like red herrings to me.
I think we'd probably disagree on what constitutes their core issue.

If you're asking if I think that black lives matter, of course I do.
__________________
I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2015, 04:37 PM   #90
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,326
Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I think the real question should be how you feel about their core issue. These other issues look like red herrings to me.
Actually, Black Lives Matter is a group started by three queer black women. Among their causes are the annoyingly high number of murders by transgendered black people...by other black people.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2015, 08:31 PM   #91
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,412
Man people are tossing around the word "murder" VERY recklessly in this thread.

Freddie Gray was murdered? Really?
Trayvon Martin was murdered? Really?
Tamir Rice was murdered? Really?

C'mon.

In every single high profile case of a black supposedly being "murdered" there has been at a bare minimum, incredibly stupid / illegal behavior on their part.

This is why there haven't been a whole lot of murder convictions to come from any of these cases.

Some of these cases may have involved law breaking on the part of the shooters, or police misconduct which rises to the level of job loss, but people talk about these cases as though white police officers simply walked up to smiling black people and shot them in the face completely unprovoked.

It would be nice to see the way these situations are referred to actually reflect the reality of them.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th November 2015, 08:40 PM   #92
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,047
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Actually, Black Lives Matter is a group started by three queer black women. Among their causes are the annoyingly high number of murders by transgendered black people...by other black people.
Don't you know that groups are only engaged in whatever the media most often reports about them?

That's why I know Planned Parenthood isn't interested in reproductive health in general, because if they were they wouldn't only provide abortions but also fertility services and birth control. That's why I know that the ACLU only defends ******** and never protects things we can all agree are important.

And also how I know that the police don't care about my speeding because they're only interested in shooting black people.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2015, 08:57 AM   #93
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 16,198
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Yes, but none of this addresses or answers why the BLM people seem to care so little about the first problem.

BLM protesters don't care about violence in their communities? If you can demonstrate your psychic powers under properly controlled conditions, you can apparently make an easy million US dollars. Seriously, this is just another right-wing racist dog-whistle.

Worse, it's outright stupid. Why didn't civil rights protesters in the '60s care about crushing poverty among rural white populations? Why didn't the anti-nuclear protesters care about South African apartheid? Why don't gay marriage supporters care about media representation of ethnic minorities? Why don't anti-Zionist protesters care about government corruption in Haiti? Because that's not their focus. It's ridiculous that anyone needs to point this out.

You, and the rest of us, don't know what the BLM members do or do not care about. We don't know what actions they may or may not be taking regarding violence in black communities, poverty, radical Islam, or the Chittagong Hills genocides for that matter. And we don't need to, because it's [i]completely and utterly irrelevant[/b] to this issue. That's not the purpose of BLM. The purpose of BLM is to point up and address one specific issue, that of institutionalized racism that has resulted in ongoing and unaddressed mistreatment of the black communities by law enforcement and government.

There are other programs out there to address the problem of violence, particularly gang violence in the black community; but I have yet to hear you or anyone complain that those programs do nothing to address the problems or inequal treatment of black people and other minorities by law enforcement. I have yet to hear anyone complain that the Pride movement isn't addressing the issue of institutionalized racism. Why is that?

To complain that a protest/activist group has a specific focus, and doesn't address any other issues, however directly or tangentially related, is flat out stupid. It's a disingenuous tactic to demonize, denigrate, and dismiss the actions of that group. And for some reason, that attitude is not being applied to any protest group other than BLM. No one seems to care why any other activist group is not addressing issues outside their focus. Why is that?

The fact that anyone can make a statement like this: "Yes, but none of this addresses or answers why the BLM people seem to care so little about the first problem," speaks very, very poorly of that person.
__________________
When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2015, 09:23 AM   #94
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 3,678
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Worse, it's outright stupid. Why didn't civil rights protesters in the '60s care about crushing poverty among rural white populations? Why didn't the anti-nuclear protesters care about South African apartheid? Why don't gay marriage supporters care about media representation of ethnic minorities? Why don't anti-Zionist protesters care about government corruption in Haiti? Because that's not their focus. It's ridiculous that anyone needs to point this out.
Now, you're just being silly. Of course, it makes sense that anti-nuclear protesters don't simultaneously protest about South African apartheid - they're not related at all. But the BLM movement is making a much more obvious and politically motivated omission.

Following your line of reasoning, I think I'll start movement called NMAA. We'll devote all our time and campaigning to trying to address all the horrible instances of medical malpractice by African American doctors. No More Medical Malpractice by African Americans! This has to stop now!!
__________________
I drink to the general joy o' th' whole table. --William Shakespeare
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2015, 09:40 AM   #95
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 16,198
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
But the BLM movement is making a much more obvious and politically motivated omission.

According to you, but you've yet to address why this is the case; nor the fact that the assertion originated in racist counter-protests, and feeds on the "violent black man" stereotype. Or do you honestly believe you can read minds, and that no programs exist to address the problems of violence in black communities? Because if not, there is nothing honest about your comments.

Quote:
Following your line of reasoning, I think I'll start movement called NMAA. We'll devote all our time and campaigning to trying to address all the horrible instances of medical malpractice by African American doctors. No More Medical Malpractice by African Americans! This has to stop now!!

Not sure what you're attempting to prove with this. Protest groups don't have to meant some arbitrary standard of inclusiveness that you made up; they can be just as narrowly focused as they feel they need to be.
__________________
When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2015, 02:40 PM   #96
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,914
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Exactly. These are two completely different problems, with completely different causes, and need to be addressed in completely different ways.

The majority of black-on-black violence is gang-related, and tied to poverty, the drug trade, systematic oppression, community values, and so on. It's a highly complex problem that needs to be addressed from many different angles, and with many different resources.

Institutional racism against black people is a separate, though related, problem. And it is actually a contributor to the conditions which enable black-on-black violence to proliferate. It marginalizes black people, and teaches them a distrust of mainstream institutions, especially law enforcement. It is one of a number of factors that need to be addressed in order to address the overall problem.

That's why the "well black people kill black people, so therefore we shouldn't care about police killing black people" is not only sheer nonsense, it is outright racist in and of itself. Racist violence and mistreatment by the institutions which are supposed to be keeping the peace and enforcing the law undermines and negates efforts by those same institutions to address the problem of violence in black communities.
Strawman, just a little.

Since I am the one who brought up the gang shootout at the park in the first place, I will say that I was specifically and obviously (by my highlighting in that post) responding to the claim the the BLM event will be the one that is remembered for escalating the violence. I certainly never claimed what you said above.

You make excuses for the gangs and their violence (poverty, institutionalized racism, etc) but make no excuses for other people who are sick and tired of the violence itself - people who have nothing to do with "institutionalized racism". Poverty and drug trade or not, it is no excuse for the amount of gang related violence we see today.

You draw a difference between black on black crime and the shooting at the BLM protest, yet they are very much related.

You created your own argument above and then called me a racist - at least that's how I read it. You say this is a complex problem and that the black community, or parts of it, are merely reacting to the situation they find themselves in, yet disregard others who are stuck dealing with that, including the police and other citizens.

This is one big problem. Nine year-olds being marked for gang-hits and cops executing people on the street is everyone's problem.
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2015, 03:41 PM   #97
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 16,198
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Strawman, just a little.



A whole lot.
__________________
When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:19 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.