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Tags black lives matter , Minnesota incidents , police misconduct charges , police shootings , protest incidents , shooting incidents

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Old 24th November 2015, 07:48 AM   #1
Distracted1
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Is this another milestone in a racially motivated arms race?

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...in-minneapolis

Apparently, several protesters at a rally in Minneapolis were shot last night by reportedly masked white men who might have been harassing the protestors verbally.
Early reports indicate that the "counter-protestors" may have been being "escorted" away from the rally when shots rang out.
I suspect there will be a great deal of argument/counter argument surrounding this incident with shades of Trayyvon Martin if the men are caught and turn out to be who the initial reports indicate they are.

I wonder,
With the attention that the "Black Lives Matter" movement has been garnering since Michael Brown- and the agita that has been causing amongst many, will we be looking back at this incident next summer as a tipping point wherein the serious violence began?
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Old 24th November 2015, 07:59 AM   #2
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Quote:
if the men are caught and turn out to be who the initial reports indicate they are.
And if they're not there are plenty who will believe it's a cover-up.
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Old 24th November 2015, 08:25 AM   #3
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We'll see how this plays out, the BLM protestors admit in this video they assaulted (meaning punched several times) the alleged white supremacists prior to the shooting. They certainly have no right to kick anyone out of a public place, let alone assault them.

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Old 24th November 2015, 08:30 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
We'll see how this plays out, the BLM protestors admit in this video they assaulted (meaning punched several times) the alleged white supremacists prior to the shooting. They certainly have no right to kick anyone out of a public place, let alone assault them.
So they assaulted them and were then "escorting" them somewhere else, away from any cameras or witnesses perhaps?
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Old 24th November 2015, 08:33 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
will we be looking back at this incident next summer as a tipping point wherein the serious violence began?
You're a few centuries too late for that one.
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Old 24th November 2015, 08:37 AM   #6
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This story says the incident occurred a block away from the station, where the protest was. So the BLM activists pushed them away a full block and then started punching them according to the BLM protestor in the video.

It matters not whether they were white supremacists or just hecklers, if they were chased for a block and then assaulted it may well be a justified shooting.
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Old 24th November 2015, 08:48 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
This story says the incident occurred a block away from the station, where the protest was. So the BLM activists pushed them away a full block and then started punching them according to the BLM protestor in the video.

It matters not whether they were white supremacists or just hecklers, if they were chased for a block and then assaulted it may well be a justified shooting.
Quote from the witness in the video cited above:
Quote:
There was a crowd trying to push the white supremacists back and push them out of the camp because one person was like "They're reaching for a gun" so we were pushing them back...
Also not hearing where it is claimed punches were thrown.
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Old 24th November 2015, 08:49 AM   #8
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I hope they kept their camera running.
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Old 24th November 2015, 08:57 AM   #9
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:25 everybody started rushing them at the same time.

1:01 somebody started punchin' one of 'em

1:05 then one of 'em started reachin'...I was like he got a gun

1:10 somebody hit somebody else and they hit the gate one more time

1:14 they started runnin' back and the crowd started chasin' them down there.
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Old 24th November 2015, 09:11 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Quote from the witness in the video cited above:


Also not hearing where it is claimed punches were thrown.
Watch it again, the critical part starts at :55:

Man on left: The one that had the black lives matter I said all you gotta do is take off your mask and he "no, no".

Man on right: So somebody out the crowd punched one of them they hit the gate over here. After that one of them started reaching and backing up.

Man on left: I'm like he got a gun, he got a gun

Man on right: So after they hit the gate again they head this way (points) they went around the corner somebody hits somebody else they hit the gate one more time and after that they started running back and then the crowd started chasing them down there until they got down there -

Man on left: I'm telling 'em like they got a gun don't follow 'em don't, don't chase 'em down they reachin'

Man on right: They reachin' for the gun or whatever so they hittin' the block and we turn around

Man on left: I'm telling him like no, come on we-

Man on right: He telling me to turn around, so I go back and we telling the crowd to go back like come back don't go down there they got a gun they continue to run after them and then as soon as they got 'em down there they try to get 'em to a spot where there weren't no cameras at they started opening fire


Now if you disagree with my transcript feel free to offer corrections.
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Old 24th November 2015, 09:12 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by HenryLee View Post
:25 everybody started rushing them at the same time.

1:01 somebody started punchin' one of 'em

1:05 then one of 'em started reachin'...I was like he got a gun

1:10 somebody hit somebody else and they hit the gate one more time

1:14 they started runnin' back and the crowd started chasin' them down there.
Are you quoting the video testimony by Jie Wronski-Riley in WildCat's link?

Because none of what you are claiming matches up with the video I see.
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Old 24th November 2015, 09:51 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Are you quoting the video testimony by Jie Wronski-Riley in WildCat's link?

Because none of what you are claiming matches up with the video I see.
That's from the video in WC's post. It might be off a second here or there but according to those two gentlemen the punches started before the gun came out.

But they are wearing masks and according to them you can't trust someone in a mask.
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Old 24th November 2015, 09:58 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Now if you disagree with my transcript feel free to offer corrections.
Transcript? It appears to be a foreign language with some similarities to English.
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Old 24th November 2015, 09:59 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by HenryLee View Post
That's from the video in WC's post. It might be off a second here or there but according to those two gentlemen the punches started before the gun came out.

But they are wearing masks and according to them you can't trust someone in a mask.
Wear a mask, that's a beating. Unless they're on your side of course.
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Old 24th November 2015, 10:19 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Are you quoting the video testimony by Jie Wronski-Riley in WildCat's link?

Because none of what you are claiming matches up with the video I see.
What video are you seeing? Got a transcript, or corrections to mine?
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Old 24th November 2015, 10:25 AM   #16
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In any case, these fellas had been known for the past few days - black lives matter Minneapolis posted this video that they shot of themselves driving to the protest a few days ago, armed and referring to the black protestors as "find us" which, yep, new racial slur. Hey, at least they're starting to be a bit inventive now.

So, y ah, not much of a shock so far.
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Old 24th November 2015, 10:34 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
What video are you seeing? Got a transcript, or corrections to mine?
I listened while looking at your transcript, and it was very precise and accurate.

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
In any case, these fellas had been known for the past few days - black lives matter Minneapolis posted this video that they shot of themselves driving to the protest a few days ago, armed and referring to the black protestors as "find us" which, yep, new racial slur. Hey, at least they're starting to be a bit inventive now.

So, y ah, not much of a shock so far.
I guess your phone autocorrected "dindus" into "find us."

Yea, these guys call them dindus and they seem to be going to deliberately stir them up or at least try to document what they're doing in the hopes that they capture "the real situation the media won't show us" etc. That sort of mindset. I don't think it's that crazy. I don't think it's crazy to feel that the media sugar coats BLM type gatherings somewhat and that there is a service for the public to be done in presenting a more accurate picture of how a lot of the participants at these things behave.

Them bringing legally owned/carried firearms doesn't strike me as a problem. It actually strikes me as very prudent. This has seemingly now been proven by exactly what happened to them (illegally attacked by the protesters and taken off to where no cameras were for additional, more violent attacks)

Did you see the video of one of the blacks there telling another black person to turn off their camera as they all closed in on these guys who they already had circled with their backs up against something? I saw it. That video was apparently just prior to them opening fire.

It's legal to shoot at a group of people who are physically attacking you and making their intent to escalate that attack clear, is it not?

Some will say it is a deliberate provocation to go there as white males with masks and firearms and it may be. But just like the videos where pranksters go to the ghetto and say things or do things, knowing they'll be rapidly and reliably physically attacked, one must keep in mind that this same sort of "provocation" doesn't work in other areas and on other communities.

I would say that the exact same attributes that make there be such a long list of reliable ways to get physically attacked in these areas are also the same reasons why the events which these protests follow happen in the first place.

If a person or a community is a known violent hot head who can be very, very easily provoked... it may be d-baggish for others to deliberately take advantage of that to stir them up, make them do something stupid, and then get them in trouble... but ultimately the solution is for them to stop being like that so they can't be set up in that way.

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Old 24th November 2015, 12:28 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
It's legal to shoot at a group of people who are physically attacking you and making their intent to escalate that attack clear, is it not?
I'm not an attorney, but I would think you would have some obligation to make sure you're just shooting at people who are directly attacking you, and not just firing into a crowd.
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Old 24th November 2015, 12:37 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I'm not an attorney, but I would think you would have some obligation to make sure you're just shooting at people who are directly attacking you, and not just firing into a crowd.
This happened a block away from the demonstration, the "crowd" at the scene of the shooting was attacking - chasing and throwing punches. This is per the video linked above.

It's not like they walked up and started shooting into a crowd of protestors.
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Old 24th November 2015, 02:05 PM   #20
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"Escort" now means to chase with intent to do harm.
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Old 24th November 2015, 02:45 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...in-minneapolis

Apparently, several protesters at a rally in Minneapolis were shot last night by reportedly masked white men who might have been harassing the protestors verbally.
Early reports indicate that the "counter-protestors" may have been being "escorted" away from the rally when shots rang out.
I suspect there will be a great deal of argument/counter argument surrounding this incident with shades of Trayyvon Martin if the men are caught and turn out to be who the initial reports indicate they are.

I wonder,
With the attention that the "Black Lives Matter" movement has been garnering since Michael Brown- and the agita that has been causing amongst many, will we be looking back at this incident next summer as a tipping point wherein the serious violence began?
Hardly! This was nothing...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-orleans-park/


Quote:
NEW ORLEANS — A gun battle erupted amid a gathering at a New Orleans park Sunday evening, scattering the crowd of revelers and wounding 16 people in a spasm of sudden violence.


New Orleans Police Department spokesperson Garry Flot said it’s unclear what ignited the shootout at Bunny Friend Park, where hundreds of people had gathered for a music video shoot and block party.


Flot said two groups began firing at each other across the crowd shortly after 6 p.m. Sunday. It’s possible that gang members were involved, according to Flot. The gunmen aren’t thought to be associated with a neighborhood parade happening nearby.
Another article mentioned that bullet casings found at the scene indicated that some automatic weapons were used.

This is two groups of gang members starting a shootout in the middle of a crowd of hundreds of people, yet the new thread of the day which indicates that "serious violence has begun" involves a couple of white guys at a Black Lives Matter rally?

Those damn white people! Did Black Lives Matter have anything to say about this incident, or the dozens of gang related shootings that happen every damn day? It seems that black lives don't really matter, it's the whiteys that we need to worry about.

I couldn't immediately find (maybe there is one) a link that CNN even reported this shootout. A gang shootout involving two groups of people shooting across a crowd of hundreds of people in a NO park - that is some scary stuff.
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Old 24th November 2015, 03:57 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Hardly! This was nothing...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-orleans-park/




Another article mentioned that bullet casings found at the scene indicated that some automatic weapons were used.

This is two groups of gang members starting a shootout in the middle of a crowd of hundreds of people, yet the new thread of the day which indicates that "serious violence has begun" involves a couple of white guys at a Black Lives Matter rally?

Those damn white people! Did Black Lives Matter have anything to say about this incident, or the dozens of gang related shootings that happen every damn day? It seems that black lives don't really matter, it's the whiteys that we need to worry about.

I couldn't immediately find (maybe there is one) a link that CNN even reported this shootout. A gang shootout involving two groups of people shooting across a crowd of hundreds of people in a NO park - that is some scary stuff.
While the gun battle you linked to is certainly ghastly, it lacks the racial animus component of the one at the BLM gathering.

The BLM protest shooting could indicate a willingness on the part of some to "take the bait", and begin to deliberately antagonize these protesters with the goal of inciting just the type of violence that occurred. It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to expect some people at future BLM demonstrations to show up armed- using this incident as justification.
That is pretty much a textbook example of things escalating, no?
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Old 24th November 2015, 04:01 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I listened while looking at your transcript, and it was very precise and accurate.



I guess your phone autocorrected "dindus" into "find us."

Yea, these guys call them dindus and they seem to be going to deliberately stir them up or at least try to document what they're doing in the hopes that they capture "the real situation the media won't show us" etc. That sort of mindset. I don't think it's that crazy. I don't think it's crazy to feel that the media sugar coats BLM type gatherings somewhat and that there is a service for the public to be done in presenting a more accurate picture of how a lot of the participants at these things behave.

Them bringing legally owned/carried firearms doesn't strike me as a problem. It actually strikes me as very prudent. This has seemingly now been proven by exactly what happened to them (illegally attacked by the protesters and taken off to where no cameras were for additional, more violent attacks)

Did you see the video of one of the blacks there telling another black person to turn off their camera as they all closed in on these guys who they already had circled with their backs up against something? I saw it. That video was apparently just prior to them opening fire.

It's legal to shoot at a group of people who are physically attacking you and making their intent to escalate that attack clear, is it not?

Some will say it is a deliberate provocation to go there as white males with masks and firearms and it may be. But just like the videos where pranksters go to the ghetto and say things or do things, knowing they'll be rapidly and reliably physically attacked, one must keep in mind that this same sort of "provocation" doesn't work in other areas and on other communities.

I would say that the exact same attributes that make there be such a long list of reliable ways to get physically attacked in these areas are also the same reasons why the events which these protests follow happen in the first place.

If a person or a community is a known violent hot head who can be very, very easily provoked... it may be d-baggish for others to deliberately take advantage of that to stir them up, make them do something stupid, and then get them in trouble... but ultimately the solution is for them to stop being like that so they can't be set up in that way.
I find it extremely unlikely that someone who deliberately goads a hothead into violent action could convincingly portray themselves as someone who is performing a public service.
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Old 24th November 2015, 04:13 PM   #24
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Two have been arrested. One guy is white and the other is Hispanic.
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Old 24th November 2015, 04:23 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Two have been arrested. One guy is white and the other is Hispanic.
White Hispanic?
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Old 24th November 2015, 04:26 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by HenryLee View Post
White Hispanic?
Didn't say. I'm thinking Hispanic Hispanic.
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Old 24th November 2015, 05:23 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
While the gun battle you linked to is certainly ghastly, it lacks the racial animus component of the one at the BLM gathering.

The BLM protest shooting could indicate a willingness on the part of some to "take the bait", and begin to deliberately antagonize these protesters with the goal of inciting just the type of violence that occurred. It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to expect some people at future BLM demonstrations to show up armed- using this incident as justification.
That is pretty much a textbook example of things escalating, no?
What I want to know is that this had been going on for several days, so why no police on hand to keep the groups separated and preserve the peace?
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Old 24th November 2015, 05:50 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
What I want to know is that this had been going on for several days, so why no police on hand to keep the groups separated and preserve the peace?
Because positioning law enforcement near a black lives matter rally would prove that law enforcement believes blacks are unable to prevent themselves from attacking people they disagree with, and that would be racist?
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Old 24th November 2015, 05:50 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
What I want to know is that this had been going on for several days, so why no police on hand to keep the groups separated and preserve the peace?
Seems a bit of a catch22.
More police presence would likely stress out the protesters and increase the likelihood of a violent confrontation with them, while less presence leaves open greater possibility for violent confrontation amongst the attendees. Reports I am reading already contain criticisms of the police reaction to the scene- some reports are that protesters were maced.
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Old 24th November 2015, 06:04 PM   #30
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Minneapolis -- BLM protests because they want the video released.
Chicago - BLM protests because the video was just released. (Just disregard the fact that the officer has been charged with 1st-degree murder.)
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Old 24th November 2015, 06:36 PM   #31
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A new video confirms what the BLM peaceful protesters said in a video posted earlier. The video was taken by one of the three "white supremacists" and has no audio.

You can skip forward to 3:00 to get to where the action starts. It shows the BLM peaceful protesters approaching and confronting the three men and then the person holding the camera gets hit. The shooting is not in this video.

The movement who cried Wolf.

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Old 24th November 2015, 06:59 PM   #32
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An ugly situation made worse by a confluence of imbeciles.
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Old 24th November 2015, 07:07 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
An ugly situation made worse by a confluence of imbeciles.
More commonly known as "History".
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Old 24th November 2015, 09:21 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
More commonly known as "History".
Sadly, you are 100% correct.
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Old 25th November 2015, 04:40 AM   #35
Mumbles
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Wow, it is kind of like the Zimerman case, except of course the exact same people who then argued that there's absolutely nothing wrong with chasingpeople are now screaming that it's a massive threat that justifies immediate gunfire.

It's almost as if some folks will look for any excuse to justify a white guy shooting a black guy. No, wait, that's exactly what it is.
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Old 25th November 2015, 05:54 AM   #36
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Wow, it is kind of like the Zimerman case, except of course the exact same people who then argued that there's absolutely nothing wrong with chasingpeople are now screaming that it's a massive threat that justifies immediate gunfire.

It's almost as if some folks will look for any excuse to justify a white guy shooting a black guy. No, wait, that's exactly what it is.
Do you think that belief will result in a situation wherein BLM protesters find it prudent to attend these events armed?
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Old 25th November 2015, 05:58 AM   #37
applecorped
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Wow, it is kind of like the Zimerman case, except of course the exact same people who then argued that there's absolutely nothing wrong with chasingpeople are now screaming that it's a massive threat that justifies immediate gunfire.

It's almost as if some folks will look for any excuse to justify a white guy shooting a black guy. No, wait, that's exactly what it is.

Almost as if
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Old 25th November 2015, 06:53 AM   #38
WildCat
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Wow, it is kind of like the Zimerman case, except of course the exact same people who then argued that there's absolutely nothing wrong with chasingpeople
I don't recall there being any evidence whatsoever of Zimmerman chasing Martin, do you have any evidence of that?

Also, Zimmerman was on the phone with police (and during the time you claim he was "chasing"), did BLM call the cops or did they chase them a full block away while throwing punches?

What is clear in this case, and not really disputed, is that BLM forced them out of a public place, chased them a full block away, and assaulted them before any shots were fired. They had no right to "escort" them from a public place, no right to assault them.

Now the police find themselves in a bind, all hell will break loose if they don't charge the shooters with something but the evidence indicates the shooting itself was justified. Maybe they charge them anyway and hope things die down before the inevitable acquittal. Or charge them with firearm violations if they find the gun was possessed illegally.

But now they've created a situation where BLM thinks they can just attack hecklers/counter protestors on sight, which is a bad precedent. Those who gave chase and assaulted should be charged, but then more feces will hit the fan. They are seemingly above the law at this point.
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Last edited by WildCat; 25th November 2015 at 06:58 AM.
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Old 25th November 2015, 06:55 AM   #39
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I like the conflation of following and chasing. It's subtle and doesn't appear too desperate.
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Old 25th November 2015, 07:51 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Do you think that belief will result in a situation wherein BLM protesters find it prudent to attend these events armed?
I have no doubt that many of them already are.
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