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Tags Aaron Sterling , police misconduct charges , police shootings , shooting incidents

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Old 7th July 2016, 11:04 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
when is the riots and looting scheduled for?
right after everyone is fully reminded that all white US cops and citizens want to murder in cold blood every black person ever, they are just waiting for some sort of pretext...
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:11 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
After you are reportedly threatening people with gun, and you are resisting search, that is to be expected, and perfectly OK.
What a chilling authoritarian dystopia you imagine we live in.
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:11 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
when is the riots and looting scheduled for?
Gimme a sec & I'll Google when the national championships are.
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:11 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
It might be better if you actually familiarized yourself with the circumstances of the events. Their cameras were on and running, just dangling from lanyards as the clips popped off their uniform shirts. There will still be good audio, but video probably won't show much.
It'd probably also help if you didn't nitpick someone's use of language (running, correctly attached and functional, working as intended, c'mon) to then make a sarky dig...

what do you expect the audio might tell us that the audio from the video we have might not? (partially genuine question, starting to think of a few possibilities but all pretty unlikely)

ETA: on reflection, I'm actually starting to wonder exactly what the video feed from the cams, had they been still correctly attached, would tell us beyond what we have...it isn't as if they'd give a 3d simulation of the scene...hmm
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:18 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
"Doing everything to get himself shot" should include taking his gun out and pointing it at someone. Not taking his gun out and pointing it at someone means he should not get shot. "Twitching while pinned down by two police officers" is not taking his gun out and pointing it at someone, so he should not have gotten shot.

IMO, these cops lost the benefit of the doubt when both of their body cameras just so happened to slip off their uniforms moments prior to the incident.
And then promptly confiscated every other piece of video evidence they could find.
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:19 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by DreadNiK View Post
It'd probably also help if you didn't nitpick someone's use of language (running, correctly attached and functional, working as intended, c'mon) to then make a sarky dig...

what do you expect the audio might tell us that the audio from the video we have might not? (partially genuine question, starting to think of a few possibilities but all pretty unlikely)
Well I wasn't trying to nitpick, when you said "running" I figured thats what you meant. Not "attached" but I apologize for being snarky if you did indeed mean that.

The audio...probably nothing more than the phone picked up. Maybe some additional grunting.

Reviewing the video could shed some light on the up close struggle though. You could get an odd frame or two that corroborate one side of the story or the other.

This kind of gets to one of the problems with relying on cameras too much. More information is generally presumed to be better, but if that information comes to be relied upon at the expense of traditional investigatory techniques, and then is absent for some technical reason, the presumption is that there is some nefarious reason for its absence, and thus casts immediate doubt on those responsible operating them. You can extrapolate this to its impact on the criminal justice system at large.

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Old 7th July 2016, 11:21 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
And then promptly confiscated every other piece of video evidence they could find.
It's evidence. They probably confiscated the shell casings too. This is how investigations are conducted.
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:30 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
If they use the same body camera I do, they slip off all the time.
That sounds like a problem. In this case, a mighty convenient one.

Have you tried using a safety pin?


Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It's evidence. They probably confiscated the shell casings too. This is how investigations are conducted.
And prior to tools like livestreaming, how they were ended as well.
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:30 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Unless they're training their people to do exactly this. This is the black man's fear: that the police department executions are not screwups, but rather, the system working as designed. "Black people are all thugs. If they give you a plausible excuse, shoot 'em. Pull 'em over for anything - taillight out, forgot to signal early enough, bicycle helmet not fastened tightly enough, whatever... then find a reason to shoot."
There's certainly some truth to that, but again, the truth is actually even uglier than that - in each case, they're simply taught to "make it home at the end of your shift", and despite the evidence, they genuinely believe that they're a half-second away from being killed and absolutely must act now.

Your proposal is actually easier to deal with - we're at war, the end. The latter is completely random, entirely out of any rational control, and can happen even when the cop isn't in uniform, or not a cop at all. Ofc. Groubert, George Zimmerman, Ofc. Casebolt all genuinely thought that they were dealing with some sort of horrible menace, when they really weren't at all.

(BTW. Atlanta itself is relatively good. Once you travel too far away, though...)
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:30 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Well I wasn't trying to nitpick, when you said "running" I figured thats what you meant. Not "attached" but I apologize for being snarky if you did indeed mean that.
no worries - I just meant maybe in general there should be more emphasis on ensuring the bodycams are....working as intended when needed most

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post

This kind of gets to one of the problems with relying on cameras too much. More information is generally presumed to be better, but if that information come to be relied upon at the expense of traditional investigatory techniques, and then is absent for some technical reason, the presumption is that there is some nefarious reason for its absence, and thus casts immediate doubt on those responsible operating them. You can extrapolate this to its impact on the criminal justice system at large.
that is an interesting point I hadn't really considered...I think I was probably too busy getting frustrated with the SJW reaction every time anything like this happens it is because the cops get their kicks gunning down black people whenever they see an opportunity to get away with it, rather than perhaps considering that maybe there is a tendency for law enforcement to attract some individuals who are somewhat racist (maybe not even the sort of 'racist' you might think, but the sort who is actually a little embarrassed that they wouldn't want their daughter marrying a black person, or that they are instinctively more afraid of them when encountering them in an official capacity) and that this might lead to a higher incidence of unjustified treatment of black people by white officers than is otherwise desirable...just as I consider the possibility that I'm being far too generous to law enforcement./rant
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:38 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
That sounds like a problem. In this case, a mighty convenient one.

Have you tried using a safety pin?
Ive messed around with some different methods of attaching mine, but generally tend to rely on the clip that came with it. It is handy, and as often as Im putting on vests, rain jackets, packs, different gear (I'm an LE park ranger way out in the sticks so maybe I do this more than a regular patrolman) if I attached it in a more permanent way it'd surely tear my shirt, which are expensive and Im not wealthy.

I mainly wear mine for the audio as usually Im alone and want everything I say and everyone I deal with to be recorded. I purchased it on my own. My agency doesnt provide them.
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:42 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by DreadNiK View Post
........I think I was probably too busy getting frustrated with the SJW reaction every time anything like this happens ..................rant
You cannot dismiss legitimate concerns (such as the outrage at
these police killing someone completely unnecessarily) by smearing them dismissively as coming from SJWs. This incident is nauseating. It is repugnant. And it is indefensible. Those policemen should spend 20 years in gaol for murder. Rather than getting frustrated by people's reaction to watching yet another cold blooded killing by police in America, how about getting just a little frustrated with such police behavior? Your priorities are demonstrably skewed.

You do know that no other first world country has such high levels of killings by police, don't you? Does it not cross your mind that America might actually be doing this completely wrong?
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:43 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by DreadNiK View Post
no worries - I just meant maybe in general there should be more emphasis on ensuring the bodycams are....working as intended when needed most



that is an interesting point I hadn't really considered...I think I was probably too busy getting frustrated with the SJW reaction every time anything like this happens it is because the cops get their kicks gunning down black people whenever they see an opportunity to get away with it, rather than perhaps considering that maybe there is a tendency for law enforcement to attract some individuals who are somewhat racist (maybe not even the sort of 'racist' you might think, but the sort who is actually a little embarrassed that they wouldn't want their daughter marrying a black person, or that they are instinctively more afraid of them when encountering them in an official capacity) and that this might lead to a higher incidence of unjustified treatment of black people by white officers than is otherwise desirable...just as I consider the possibility that I'm being far too generous to law enforcement./rant
I think when you look at the ostensibly disproportional instances of white cop/black victim it easy to intuitively make that leap. But looking beyond the intuitive, the simple fact is most cops are white even in high crime, black/african american majority communities. That's a problem in and of itself, but as a matter of course most interactions are going to be between white cops and black suspects so these instances are really not disproportional demographically speaking.

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Old 7th July 2016, 11:45 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You cannot dismiss legitimate concerns (such as the outrage at
these police killing someone completely unnecessarily) by smearing them dismissively as coming from SJWs. This incident is nauseating. It is repugnant. And it is indefensible. Those policemen should spend 20 years in gaol for murder. Rather than getting frustrated by people's reaction to watching yet another cold blooded killing by police in America, how about getting just a little frustrated with such police behavior? Your priorities are demonstrably skewed.

You do know that no other first world country has such high levels of killings by police, don't you? Does it not cross your mind that America might actually be doing this completely wrong?
Is there any other country where the general populace is as well-armed as the US?
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:46 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Ive messed around with some different methods of attaching mine, but generally tend to rely on the clip that came with it. It is handy, and as often as Im putting on vests, rain jackets, packs, different gear (I'm an LE park ranger way out in the sticks so maybe I do this more than a regular patrolman) if I attached it in a more permanent way it'd surely tear my shirt, which are expensive and Im not wealthy.

I mainly wear mine for the audio as usually Im alone and want everything I say and everyone I deal with to be recorded. I purchased it on my own. My agency doesnt provide them.
If you can find a ten year-old girl with a Bedazzler, you could stick a rivet onto your shirts where you want the camera to go, and epoxy a backing onto the camera itself, then just snap it on whatever you're wearing.

There's lots of ways to address the problem, is what I'm saying. There's not really any excuse to have shoddy cameras that fall off easily, unless falling off easily is the idea.

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Is there any other country where the general populace is as well-armed as the US?
Switzerland. Every man is IIRC legally required to keep a military-grade rifle in combat ready condition.

[ETA] Then again I might be wrong. GO 'MERKA!

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Old 7th July 2016, 11:51 AM   #176
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[quote]
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
If you can find a ten year-old girl with a Bedazzler, you could stick a rivet onto your shirts where you want the camera to go, and epoxy a backing onto the camera itself, then just snap it on whatever you're wearing.

There's lots of ways to address the problem, is what I'm saying. There's not really any excuse to have shoddy cameras that fall off easily, unless falling off easily is the idea.
Are you saying that the private manufacturers who supply these cameras build them to intentionally help police departments conspire to commit crimes?

Mine came from Amazon. Im sure they're in on it too.


Quote:
Switzerland. Every man is IIRC legally required to keep a military-grade rifle in combat ready condition.
Hey if you want to play games and make disingenuous arguments, go for it.
It's not really addressing the issue though.
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:52 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
This incident is nauseating. It is repugnant. And it is indefensible. Those policemen should spend 20 years in gaol for murder.
Says you.
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:59 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You cannot dismiss legitimate concerns (such as the outrage at
these police killing someone completely unnecessarily) by smearing them dismissively as coming from SJWs.
true. good thing I did nothing of the sort.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
This incident is nauseating. It is repugnant. And it is indefensible. Those policemen should spend 20 years in gaol for murder.
who needs due process? we have you, the supreme arbiter...

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Rather than getting frustrated by people's reaction to watching yet another cold blooded killing by police in America, how about getting just a little frustrated with such police behavior? Your priorities are demonstrably skewed.
please go ahead and demonstrate that then. I'll be quite impressed if you manage it.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You do know that no other first world country has such high levels of killings by police, don't you? Does it not cross your mind that America might actually be doing this completely wrong?
yes. I think their gun control laws and attitudes are nuts.
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Old 7th July 2016, 12:01 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Are you saying that the private manufacturers who supply these cameras build them to intentionally help police departments conspire to commit crimes?
No, but I'm saying police departments who purchase these cameras do not regard a tendency to slip off at opportune moments as a design flaw. In fact they probably see it as a good thing - more "dislodging" means less "accidental smashing."
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Old 7th July 2016, 12:02 PM   #180
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[quote=Pterodactyl;11373690]
Quote:

Are you saying that the private manufacturers who supply these cameras build them to intentionally help police departments conspire to commit crimes?
I think it is more the suggestion that is foolish and negligent on a institutional level, to some degree. Or at least I'd suggest that myself.

[quote=Pterodactyl;11373690]
Quote:
Hey if you want to play games and make disingenuous arguments, go for it.
It's not really addressing the issue though.
indeed.
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Old 7th July 2016, 12:06 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
If you can find a ten year-old girl with a Bedazzler, you could stick a rivet onto your shirts where you want the camera to go, and epoxy a backing onto the camera itself, then just snap it on whatever you're wearing.
there's really something quite odd about this sentence, especially if out of context and having to work out what a Bedazzler is...
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Old 7th July 2016, 12:06 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
No, but I'm saying police departments who purchase these cameras do not regard a tendency to slip off at opportune moments as a design flaw. In fact they probably see it as a good thing - more "dislodging" means less "accidental smashing."
If you inherently view all police departments as corrupt to such an extent then I guess I won't be able to alter your conspiratorial thinking, but the truth is there are a few light and reliable models of body cams out there that are used by most agencies. The clips on them kind of suck so they fall off sometimes.
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Old 7th July 2016, 12:08 PM   #183
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If this is what is going on now we have people filming and streaming and the cops know it, imagine the **** that went on before we all had the cameras
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Old 7th July 2016, 12:10 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
If this is what is going on now we have people filming and streaming and the cops know it, imagine the **** that went on before we all had the cameras
and, y'know, all those laws to protect our rights and limit the natural corruption of power
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Old 7th July 2016, 12:18 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
If you inherently view all police departments as corrupt to such an extent then I guess I won't be able to alter your conspiratorial thinking, but the truth is there are a few light and reliable models of body cams out there that are used by most agencies. The clips on them kind of suck so they fall off sometimes.
Just google "body cam malfunction." When the cameras average being on only 25% of the time, I think we can be excused a little conspiratorial thinking.
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Old 7th July 2016, 12:33 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It's evidence. They probably confiscated the shell casings too. This is how investigations are conducted.
Evidence of a possible crime that members of their own department committed.

Few people are allowed the luxury of investigating their own potential crimes.
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Old 7th July 2016, 12:58 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Evidence of a possible crime that members of their own department committed.

Few people are allowed the luxury of investigating their own potential crimes.
That is a difficulty. But even if you had some independent organization swoop in (and I think it's a good idea, actually) then they would confiscate the video too.

I'm not sure about the store owner's claim about asking for a warrant before the video was seized and whether or not a warrant is required in those circumstances. Certainly we have the technology now to make a copy easily.
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Old 7th July 2016, 01:13 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
That is a difficulty. But even if you had some independent organization swoop in (and I think it's a good idea, actually) then they would confiscate the video too.
And I wouldn't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with a police department "collecting" evidence and conducting an investigation of their own officers.

Quote:
I'm not sure about the store owner's claim about asking for a warrant before the video was seized and whether or not a warrant is required in those circumstances. Certainly we have the technology now to make a copy easily.
I'm not certain of that either. But I understand his hesitancy in turning over evidence to the same police department he just watched shoot someone to death. I guess he's lucky he didn't get shot too for refusing to comply.
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Old 7th July 2016, 01:21 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
... whether or not a warrant is required in those circumstances ..
In this circumstance no warrant is needed ... most evidence at the scene can be collected without warrant.
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Old 7th July 2016, 01:54 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
There's certainly some truth to that, but again, the truth is actually even uglier than that - in each case, they're simply taught to "make it home at the end of your shift", and despite the evidence, they genuinely believe that they're a half-second away from being killed and absolutely must act now.
This is why I am not a fan of the policy to intervene in minor infractions like not putting your ticker on when turning on an unoccupied street. It feels like it's just unjustly inflating the opportunities for misunderstandings and tragedies. I hate to sound cynical, but given the observable decline in crime in the USA over the last 40 years, it's interesting that the police population continues to grow.

My concern is that it's a make-work program that has a low risk of serious impact, and as a result yes, obviously the public feels harassed, but more importantly they feel unsafe. Citizens used to be afraid of random muggings, but the statistics have shifted to being afraid of random traffic stops that could go pear shaped.



Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Your proposal is actually easier to deal with - we're at war, the end. The latter is completely random, entirely out of any rational control, and can happen even when the cop isn't in uniform, or not a cop at all. Ofc. Groubert, George Zimmerman, Ofc. Casebolt all genuinely thought that they were dealing with some sort of horrible menace, when they really weren't at all.

(BTW. Atlanta itself is relatively good. Once you travel too far away, though...)
This was my wife's main concern. She's not from around there, but one of her coworkers who opted out of this year's trip is from Mississipi. The organizers were talking up how they wouldn't get bored between sessions at the conference because they could always take a day trip out to Marietta or Roswell and see some Civil War attractions. When we were in Hawaii, for example, it was nice to get out and see Pearl and the North Shore - kept the boredom away. But my wife felt that a bunch of foreign brown women driving a car in rural Georgia - one of them wearing a Hijab - was just an invitation to tragedy. I think she's right.
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Old 7th July 2016, 02:16 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
my wife felt that a bunch of foreign brown women driving a car in rural Georgia - one of them wearing a Hijab - was just an invitation to tragedy. I think she's right.
Yeah, it's basically a death sentence. Especially Roswell.
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Old 7th July 2016, 03:01 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Yeah, it's basically a death sentence. Especially Roswell.
When I first heard about "no go zones" I assumed they were talking about Klan towns, since that's the black peoples' attitude toward them.

My wife's Mississippi friend who moved here is thinking of reviving the Negro Motorist Green-Book, which was basically a map of black no-go zones.
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Old 7th July 2016, 03:04 PM   #193
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My US-phobia seems to be proportional to amount of time spend on this forum. Is it even possible to get about your day and not get killed down there !?
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Old 7th July 2016, 03:41 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
My wife's Mississippi friend who moved here is thinking of reviving the Negro Motorist Green-Book, which was basically a map of black no-go zones.
That's a great idea. I highly approve.
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Old 7th July 2016, 03:43 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
My US-phobia seems to be proportional to amount of time spend on this forum. Is it even possible to get about your day and not get killed down there !?
Yes. 100s of millions of people manage to avoid it every day. It's really not that hard.
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Old 7th July 2016, 05:14 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
My US-phobia seems to be proportional to amount of time spend on this forum. Is it even possible to get about your day and not get killed down there !?

It's like the lottery: not every person gets unreasonably shot by police, but it's guaranteed that someone will...
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Old 7th July 2016, 06:59 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
It's like the lottery: not every person gets unreasonably shot by police, but it's guaranteed that someone will...
It helps if you are a cop. You hardly ever get one cop shooting another without cause.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:21 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It helps if you are a cop. You hardly ever get one cop shooting another without cause.
Or just carve your name onto a bullet. What are the chances that you'll run across a second bullet with your name on it?
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:40 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Yeah...but he is Black - so that is OK with America.
No, it is ok with some things in America. There is a difference.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:47 PM   #200
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I've got a lot going for me: I'm healthy, I'm relatively young, I'm white...which, thank God for that, boy. That is a huge leg up. Are you kidding me? Oh, God, I love being white. I really do. Seriously, if you're not white, you're missing out. Because this is thoroughly good. Let me be clear, by the way. I'm not saying that white people are better. I'm saying that being white is clearly better. Who could even argue? If it was an option, I would re-up every year.

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