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Tags Charles Kinsey , Jonathan Aledda , police misconduct charges , police shootings , racial incidents , racism charges

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Old 21st July 2016, 03:54 PM   #241
Ernie M
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"Objective Reasonableness"

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I'm... not sure this makes it better:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydai...client=safari#
Originally Posted by erlando View Post
I... have no words..

Quote:
The officer meant to hit the autistic man Kinsey was trying to help — and he fired three times, according to North Miami police.

But he missed the patient, and hit Kinsey instead, the union chief explained. The cop feared the confused autistic patient — holding a toy truck as he sat next to Kinsey on the pavement — might have posed a safety threat, the labor leader said.

"Might have posed a safety threat". "Might have"?! In what twisted world is that enough to open fire?

I believe the standard of "Objective Reasonableness" will be applied.

Example from U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Graham v. Connor:

Quote:
(c) The Fourth Amendment "reasonableness" inquiry is whether the officers' actions are "objectively reasonable" in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to their underlying intent or motivation. The "reasonableness" of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, and its calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation.

So if law enforcement says there was a perceived threat, that could potentially make the use of force... reasonable.

As a civilian, I didn't get the sense that the autistic man posed a threat that would justify shots fired. I get the sense that Charles Kinsey, the behavioral therapist, complied with officer requests for compliance and did an exemplary job of explaining the situation while under duress while laying on the ground, hands in air, knowing firearms are pointed his way.

Good thing there's video.
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:00 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Some AR-15 platforms, and probably M4s as well, can be converted to fire 9x19mm pistol ammunition. All the same, even if it was a .223 that's not a guaranteed devastating wound unless it hits bone - if it went in and out hitting nothing but soft tissue then it's not impossible he didn't feel much. Let's remember he's surrounded by cops with assault rifles trained on him, he's not in his normal frame of mind.

I'm open to this being a negligent discharge, but that in no way excuses the handcuffing and denial of medical treatment.

And I forget who said it here, but being handcuffed is not a requirement across the board for riding in the back of a squad car. When a truck crashed into my car a few years ago and it got towed, I had no ride home and no money for a cab, so Dallas PD gave me a ride in the back, and I wasn't cuffed.
Lawyer now is claiming he was trying to shoot the retard with the toy truck. So much more reasonable I guess.

Let this be a lesson to all parents, never let your children play outside with toy trucks, they will be killed by the police.
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:03 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
I... have no words..



"Might have posed a safety threat". "Might have"?! In what twisted world is that enough to open fire?
American policing of course. The slightest threat must be met with deadly force, that is why police shootings are at a 40 year high. Police deaths are at a 20 year low.
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:28 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Nakani View Post
When did cops become such scared wimps? I remember the old days when the police would run up, cuff him, dog pile and give him an old fashioned beat down. Now it's just hide behind the car and shoot, pathetic.

American police seem to have gotten both a grossly exaggerated view of their own importance, and a grossly exaggerated view of the danger they are in from the American public. Being a police officer is not even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs in the US (mind you, that varies by jurisdiction); and the overwhelming majority of line-of-duty deaths for police officers are traffic accidents. You have an orders-of-magnitude greater chance of being shot as a convenience store clerk.

But the reality doesn't matter, the impression does. Both of these views stem from what is known as the "Bunker Mentality". Where the "us vs them" mindset is pushed so far over the top that everyone outside the in-group is perceived as an enemy. That's the mindset that has police treating even ordinary citizens as criminals, and attacking them for perceived slights. Add to that a highly exclusionary culture, exacerbated by the rigid and mindless enforcement of laws which nearly everyone knows are not only utterly useless, but outright harmful society and its citizens, and you have a recipe for escalating scales of disasters in interaction with the citizens at large. Irrational fear overriding rational response.
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:39 PM   #245
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There goes negligent discharge ..

I'm speechless .. it all makes even less sense. I mean it makes no sense if from point of scared stupid cop. If he was shooting at the autistic man .. why he stopped shooting ? Did he realize he just wont hit him from that distance ? Got closer only to realize his mistake ? WTF ?
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:40 PM   #246
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So they've openly acknowledged that Mr Kinsey did not do anything wrong, that the officer who shot him did so accidentally while trying to murder subdue the unarmed man Mr Kinsey was trying to help. They've admitted the cop fired three times and missed all three shots - because the autistic man "might" have been a threat. Well, pretty clearly there was a threat. Mr Kinsey certainly thought so. He was lying on the ground with his hands in the air. He believed he was in danger - from the police. He was right. Does this mean it would have been OK to shoot the cops for the danger they were clearly putting Mr Kinsey in?

Also now that they have admitted Mr Kinsey was shot completely by accident, hadn't done anything wrong and was completely compliant have the police offered any explanation for why they delayed so long getting him medical treatment, why they cuffed him both at the scene and at the freaking hospital???
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:58 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
There goes negligent discharge ..

I'm speechless .. it all makes even less sense. I mean it makes no sense if from point of scared stupid cop. If he was shooting at the autistic man .. why he stopped shooting ? Did he realize he just wont hit him from that distance ? Got closer only to realize his mistake ? WTF ?
...And now you're getting closer to understanding why people have been marching in the streets over this sort of crap, and why quite a few people have been saying "look, it's only a matter of time before some idiot decides to start shooting cops." These violent and random incidents aren't new, just the videos. But the videos are what let everyone in the country get angry over each incident - which is why I said at the start that I'm not watching this one, and why many people are doing the same.
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Old 21st July 2016, 05:32 PM   #248
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Black Lives Matter suffers from the same problem as Occupy Wall Street. They have a legitimate grievance that needs legislative action to solve. But neither of these groups have the skills needed to unseat office holders who don't give a damn about their issue. Nor are they good at coming up with specific proposals to improve the situation.
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Old 21st July 2016, 05:36 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Black Lives Matter suffers from the same problem as Occupy Wall Street. They have a legitimate grievance that needs legislative action to solve. But neither of these groups have the skills needed to unseat office holders who don't give a damn about their issue. Nor are they good at coming up with specific proposals to improve the situation.
And never mind that they've helped to kick both the Cleveland and Chicago Attorneys General out of office, or pushed for, among other issues, the federal program for departments to equip police with body cameras.

Some some people (as we've seen in this thread) are intent on dismissing all evidence in favor of blind acceptance, if not open support, of random black people being shot, so these things will take time.

ETA: if anything, they've been a remarkable success given such a short period of time, as far as police violence goes, although the organization itself has many other issues on it's plate that receive much less attention.

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Old 21st July 2016, 05:41 PM   #250
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I'm watching a video of a police union chief talking about the incident. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e91083057.html

Some of what he says doesn't add up. He claims that the officers thought Kinsey was in danger from his autistic patient; so he fired his weapon. If the officer really thought Kinsey was in danger, why didn't he keep on firing until the autistic man was killed or no longer a threat? The claim stinks.

Ranb
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Old 21st July 2016, 05:59 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
I believe the standard of "Objective Reasonableness" will be applied.

Example from U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Graham v. Connor:




So if law enforcement says there was a perceived threat, that could potentially make the use of force... reasonable.

As a civilian, I didn't get the sense that the autistic man posed a threat that would justify shots fired. I get the sense that Charles Kinsey, the behavioral therapist, complied with officer requests for compliance and did an exemplary job of explaining the situation while under duress while laying on the ground, hands in air, knowing firearms are pointed his way.

Good thing there's video.
I know that 'argument by comedian' is not considered a classic skeptical approach, but sometimes comedians really nail it.

There's a Key & Peele episode where they have a police officer who is sincerely genuinely honestly terrified of black people. The sketch follows his career as he is systematically exonerated of shooting hundreds of unarmed compliant black victims. It culminates in his shooting of his own captain. "Well, he did approach him with that coffee and donut unannounced."

So, this is where the definition of 'justified' is reaching its problematic point in the USA's career trajectory. Are we willing to accept "Well, black people were the villains in Miami Vice so I'm excused for thinking they're villains in real life" as the threshold for 'justified'? Or should we expect better here in 2016?
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Old 21st July 2016, 06:22 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I'm watching a video of a police union chief talking about the incident. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e91083057.html

Some of what he says doesn't add up. He claims that the officers thought Kinsey was in danger from his autistic patient; so he fired his weapon. If the officer really thought Kinsey was in danger, why didn't he keep on firing until the autistic man was killed or no longer a threat? The claim stinks.

Ranb
I think that's part of what people don't get about the entire BLM issue.

It's not just that the cop shot the guy.
It's not even that the shooting was blatantly unwarranted.

It's the way the department, the FOP, and their fanboys immediately circle the wagons, latch onto any excuse no matter how flimsy, and defend the cop-who-obviously-shouldn't-be-a-cop with every single breath. The next step is to attack anyone who questions them or demands answers as "anti-police."
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:31 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Not complaining. Just making sure based on past performance.
The first case he cites does not feature a white victim. He's Hispanic, and if you look into the case, you'd learn that he was armed with a knife and had just assaulted his baby. It's not as sinister as it seems. And the cops who killed him were Hispanic too (of course that's important since many here believe that police brutality is due to "white supremacy").

The second case he cites didn't receive much if any publicity because the "offending" cop was black. That's why you didn't hear about it.

And notice how his white partner didn't shoot at all. How is that even possible?

Ironically, the only almost confirmed case of a civilian being killed by a cop while having his empty hands up in the air is the case of Jeremy Mardis and his father (both white, both killed by black cops). I still need to see the video for me to be 100% convinced though.

edit -- I just rewatched the video from the second cited case, and that appears to be justified too. The cop repeatedly tells him to not exit the car, and then the victim just barges out and flings his hands forward.

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Old 21st July 2016, 08:38 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I'm... not sure this makes it better:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydai...client=safari#
Before those shootings, a black man, Alton Sterling, 37, was fatally shot during a scuffle with two white officers at a convenience store.

In Minnesota, 32-year-old Philando Castile, who was also black, was shot to death during a traffic stop.

Nice race bias from your source.

Why not mention that Castile's killer is a brown Latino? The race of the cop is only relevant if he or she is white?

edit -- this link confirms that the offending cop is Hispanic, which is your source neglects to mention for some reason.

http://wsvn.com/news/local/video-sho...t-unarmed-man/

This news is going to disappoint all of those BLM idiots on twitter who are assuming the cop is a white racist (because only white people are evil enough to shoot black people).

My favorite tweet so far

https://twitter.com/MARQ_C/status/756252496339750912

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Old 21st July 2016, 08:44 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I think that's part of what people don't get about the entire BLM issue.

It's not just that the cop shot the guy.
It's not even that the shooting was blatantly unwarranted.

It's the way the department, the FOP, and their fanboys immediately circle the wagons, latch onto any excuse no matter how flimsy, and defend the cop-who-obviously-shouldn't-be-a-cop with every single breath. The next step is to attack anyone who questions them or demands answers as "anti-police."
Funny, even on the right-leaning Daily Mail, the overwhelming majority of readers felt that this shooting was unjustified (based on upvotes).

And sadly, some will be disappointed to learn that the cop was aiming for the patient and not the unarmed black guy with his hands in the air.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:47 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I'm watching a video of a police union chief talking about the incident. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e91083057.html

Some of what he says doesn't add up. He claims that the officers thought Kinsey was in danger from his autistic patient; so he fired his weapon. If the officer really thought Kinsey was in danger, why didn't he keep on firing until the autistic man was killed or no longer a threat? The claim stinks.

Ranb
Of course he said that. That's how it's been done for decades now.

Oh, and if you think it's absurd that he shot a black aid because of a harmless autistic guy, imagine how I feel thinking about my autistic black cousin.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:59 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I'm watching a video of a police union chief talking about the incident. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e91083057.html

Some of what he says doesn't add up. He claims that the officers thought Kinsey was in danger from his autistic patient; so he fired his weapon. If the officer really thought Kinsey was in danger, why didn't he keep on firing until the autistic man was killed or no longer a threat? The claim stinks.

Ranb
And see, folks? They're already expressing disappointment with the news.

Look on the bright side, the cop was trying to "murder" a brown Latino. That's still racism, right? Well, we still need the very important information on the cop's race, but don't get your hopes up. He's probably Latino too considering that it's Florida we're talking about here.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:58 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Yeah, that's exactly what all my posts have said...way to read them!

He probably just jabbed himself with a pencil...
Maybe instead of getting miffed you could clarify what you are saying. Three cops are shown holding rifles in position behind a vehicle. Is there any reason to think someone pulled a pistol out? All you've said is, it's not X because it didn't do enough damage. But the facts in front of us show us otherwise.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:01 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Assuming the cop actually had a select fire assault rifle, setting it to burst fire in this scenario would be an unforgivable error, imo.
On top of the unforgivable error of piss-poor assessment of the scene and accidental discharge of a weapon compounded by cuffing the guy you just accidentally shot as if going through the motions the shot was called for would make it so.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:05 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Not badly injured. Must have been a ricochet/graze. Or possibly hit by a piece of jacket....
And this was worth a half dozen posts arguing the guy wasn't really shot?

Why not just say, probably ricochet, not a direct hit. No one would have argued.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:06 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Fortunately the injury was not bad and only the cop's life is apparently ruined.
Bet you dollars to donuts he gets reprimanded, sent to retraining, busted in rank if possible and keeps his job.

I do hope that applies to everyone there who was involved in cuffing the victim after an admitted accidental discharge and an obvious mistake not recognizing a toy truck was not a gun.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:14 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Not complaining. Just making sure based on past performance.
Past performance as in I haven't changed my conclusion that Brown was not bull-rushing said trigger happy Wilson?

For the record, no I have not. And given the continued occurrences of homicide by cop that we've seen now that more people are catching these events on camera, I am even more convinced my conclusion about Brown's death was correct.

As you can see, a two minute Google finds more than one 'shot with hands up'.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:20 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And that black man was shot by a black cop. And the guy wasn't exactly a saint--he had a gun in the car and had previously served 13 years in prison for shooting at cops, which the policeman apparently already knew about.



And he was not obeying orders to stay in the car:
Your cop apologies are duly noted. I don't choose to waste more time finding incidences of cops shooting people with their hands up just to satisfy your nitpicking.

Ball's in your court, find us incidents where cops were disciplined, fired or charged with a crime because their coworkers didn't lie for them when no videos exposed their accidental or negligent shooting.

Is it insignificant that these negligent shootings (accidental or criminal) only come to light when a bystander or security cam catches the incident?
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:22 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
...

Still doesn't excuse 20 minutes handcuffed face down with a gun shot wound. :-/
No, it definitely does not.

I know because I get involved in these things when they result in the cops being exposed to blood. I've met up with cops in the ED with the suspect to do the exposure followup.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:24 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Ammonitida View Post
Nice race bias from your source.

Why not mention that Castile's killer is a brown Latino? The race of the cop is only relevant if he or she is white?

edit -- this link confirms that the offending cop is Hispanic, which is your source neglects to mention for some reason.

http://wsvn.com/news/local/video-sho...t-unarmed-man/

This news is going to disappoint all of those BLM idiots on twitter who are assuming the cop is a white racist (because only white people are evil enough to shoot black people).

My favorite tweet so far

https://twitter.com/MARQ_C/status/756252496339750912
A complete non sequitur about racial bias against whites, followed by a woeful misunderstanding of why incidents like this upset people.

You should have gone for the hat trick and implied this is all somehow Obama's fault.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:27 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I'm... not sure this makes it better:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydai...client=safari#
That's sick if that turns out to be the case, shooting a mentally disabled man with a toy truck while another man is yelling at you, "I'm a therapist and don't shoot it's a toy truck" and it's clear from the video that a toy truck is in the man's hand.

Are the cops that stupid that they think a mentally disabled man sitting in the street playing with a toy, oblivious to the scene around him is going to obey the cop's commands?

I do hope that does not turn out to be the actual story.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:31 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
Don't forget Winston Hayes.

"When 44-year-old drug suspect Winston Hayes' SUV lurched forward he hit a police car, deputies unloaded their weapons, firing 120 shots. Four bullets ended up hitting Hayes who survived, one hit a deputy sheriff, 11 hit patrol cars and 11 hit five homes in the neighborhood (one of them ended up tearing a hole in a homeowner's hat)."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagious_shooting
That's nice comedy relief after the depressing post above.


Keystone cops comes to mind.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:32 PM   #268
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Personally think in this case it isn't a black shooting issue. It's a how stupid and **** are US cops issue
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:32 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
I... have no words..
"Might have posed a safety threat". "Might have"?! In what twisted world is that enough to open fire?
It almost starts to sound like an excuse grew after an accidental discharge. Disgusting!
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:35 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by SteveL View Post
The cop negligently fired. He even said "I don't know" when he was first asked why he shot. He's had a little time to think, and this lame-assed lie was the best he could come up with. Miami's finest at work.
And watch them all fall in line and back the BSer up. Here's a chance for other cops to call BS on their coworker. You can bet they won't.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:39 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
American police seem to have gotten both a grossly exaggerated view of their own importance, and a grossly exaggerated view of the danger they are in from the American public.
Googling around, I was only able to find one incident in which an officer from the North Miami PD was killed by a criminal in the line of duty in the history of the department.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:43 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I'm watching a video of a police union chief talking about the incident. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e91083057.html

Some of what he says doesn't add up. He claims that the officers thought Kinsey was in danger from his autistic patient; so he fired his weapon. If the officer really thought Kinsey was in danger, why didn't he keep on firing until the autistic man was killed or no longer a threat? The claim stinks.

Ranb
Is there a transcript of that? It's really hard to listen to.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:44 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I think that's part of what people don't get about the entire BLM issue.

It's not just that the cop shot the guy.
It's not even that the shooting was blatantly unwarranted.

It's the way the department, the FOP, and their fanboys immediately circle the wagons, latch onto any excuse no matter how flimsy, and defend the cop-who-obviously-shouldn't-be-a-cop with every single breath. The next step is to attack anyone who questions them or demands answers as "anti-police."
QFT
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:47 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Ammonitida View Post
...
edit -- I just rewatched the video from the second cited case, and that appears to be justified too. The cop repeatedly tells him to not exit the car, and then the victim just barges out and flings his hands forward.
I repeat my challenge to you then:

Ball's in your court, find us incidents where cops were disciplined, fired or charged with a crime because their coworkers didn't lie for them when no videos exposed their accidental or negligent shooting.

Is it insignificant that these negligent shootings (accidental or criminal) only come to light when a bystander or security cam catches the incident?
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:48 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Ammonitida View Post
...

And sadly, some will be disappointed to learn that the cop was aiming for the patient and not the unarmed black guy with his hands in the air.
And even more of us are sickened by the changing story from an accidental discharge to the claim the shots were justified they just missed.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:50 PM   #276
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I'd love to hear how any one could justify this cop being allowed to carry a gun again
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:58 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Ammonitida View Post
Funny, even on the right-leaning Daily Mail, the overwhelming majority of readers felt that this shooting was unjustified (based on upvotes).
The UK Daily Mail? "Right leaning"? If it went any more right it would fall off the edge.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:02 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I'm watching a video of a police union chief talking about the incident. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/loca...e91083057.html

Some of what he says doesn't add up. He claims that the officers thought Kinsey was in danger from his autistic patient; so he fired his weapon. If the officer really thought Kinsey was in danger, why didn't he keep on firing until the autistic man was killed or no longer a threat? The claim stinks.

Ranb
This is far worse than a "sorry, an accident" excuse. "Sorry, I hit one harmless man while I was trying to shoot another harmless man". Far, far worse.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:06 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Personally think in this case it isn't a black shooting issue. It's a how stupid and **** are US cops issue
This is all about race for the far left. They wouldn't give a flying if these victims were white. In fact, they outright deny that whites can even be victims of police brutality. Hence the often-repeated line, "if he was white, he would have lived". This despite the fact that the worse case of police brutality this year happened to a white man.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.2582759

When I pointed out to someone here that 15% of white homicide victims die at the hands of police (in comparison to just 5% of black homicide victims), his immediate response to me was, "that's because white people are more violent with cops!!!", a factoid he pulled out of thin air. This same guy would never consider that possibility for black people, when attempting to explain the black disproportionality of police-shooting victims. But for white people, they all deserved it.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:07 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Personally think in this case it isn't a black shooting issue. It's a how stupid and **** are US cops issue
Well, there are certainly the issues with how police in the US deal with people who are mentally ill or disabled as well - and often, people who are physically disabled. And these can easily combine with the freakout over skin color, as in this example among many.

I can't necessarily fault the caller, in the case this thread is about - Unlike Zimmerman or that idiot that got John Crawford III killed, this one likely just called because that's what people are taught to do, and didn't forsee police shooting the guy who came to aid an autistic man who really just had a toy truck. But that just leads to another issue - when the hell is it okay to call the cops, anyway?
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