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Old 2nd September 2017, 08:52 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It may. The district attorney has already called for a criminal investigation,
It's been awhile since I followed Utah news, but if I remember correctly, that particular DA has a pretty good history of prosecuting bad behavior by police and politicians. This is probably much more than just a token investigation to satisfy public outcry. With this DA, that detective and his superior have real cause to worry about being prosecuted.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 09:06 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It's been awhile since I followed Utah news, but if I remember correctly, that particular DA has a pretty good history of prosecuting bad behavior by police and politicians. This is probably much more than just a token investigation to satisfy public outcry. With this DA, that detective and his superior have real cause to worry about being prosecuted.
It will be interesting to see the difference between the BS claim the cop felt fear and this one where while the cop said the nurse was interfering with his investigation, he was acting without probable cause or a warrant.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 10:52 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
It's been awhile since I followed Utah news, but if I remember correctly, that particular DA has a pretty good history of prosecuting bad behavior by police and politicians. This is probably much more than just a token investigation to satisfy public outcry. With this DA, that detective and his superior have real cause to worry about being prosecuted.
Oh, yes. He brought up the former state attorneys-general on corruption charges, but lost at trial. Still, you don't want to be a corrupt official in Salt Lake County.

Among the many things that make me sad about this is that this incident happened a month ago. Only now that it has gone public has there been a scramble of action from the appropriate authorities. SLCPD wasn't going to do anything about it. They were just going to move the detective to other duties and carry on as if nothing had happened. We're entering an era where you don't get justice unless your video goes viral on social media.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 11:24 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Gotta disagree. Cops should be (better) cops and do cop things. Medical personnel should do medical things.
Sounds like you're saying cops should not carry defibrillators or Narcan, or administer CPR, or be able to deliver babies, or be trained in or perform any other medical procedures. For that matter, it sounds like you're saying cops should not do things like animal control or search and rescue, or carry stuffed toys in their cars for traumatized children. Cops should stick entirely to law enforcement and leave all of these other activities to the proper departments.

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Old 2nd September 2017, 11:26 AM   #85
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No it doesn't.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 11:27 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
We're entering an era where you don't get justice unless your video goes viral on social media.
Which is an improvement over the previous era, where you don't get justice.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 12:05 PM   #87
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Yep, as someone else noted, having video cameras everywhere on phones hasn't turned up bigfoot or ET but it sure has shown us just how pervasive police misconduct is.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 12:11 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No it doesn't.
I disagree.

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Old 2nd September 2017, 12:13 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Sounds like you're saying cops should not carry defibrillators or Narcan, or administer CPR, or be able to deliver babies, or be trained in or perform any other medical procedures. For that matter, it sounds like you're saying cops should not do things like animal control or search and rescue, or carry stuffed toys in their cars for traumatized children. Cops should stick entirely to law enforcement and leave all of these other activities to the proper departments.

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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No it doesn't.
Sure doesn't. All those things you list are emergency services, not invasive medical procedures for collecting evidence.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 12:14 PM   #90
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/01/health...deo/index.html
Quote:
The officer's account
In a police report, Payne said when he arrived to the hospital, Wubbels said he needed to get permission from the hospital administrators.
After more than an hour waiting, Payne said, he called his supervisor who advised him to arrest Wubbels if she refused to let him draw a blood sample.
This is not simply a problem with one rouge cop who knows less about the law than the person he is arresting. It seems to be a department problem if a supervisor got involved and told his officer to arrest Wubbels if she did not comply.

I think it is easier to fix a problem with a single police officer, harder to fix a department.

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Old 2nd September 2017, 12:30 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Sure doesn't. All those things you list are emergency services, not invasive medical procedures for collecting evidence.
Maybe you should be a little more explicit, then, rather than leaving it up to the reader to decide what you mean by "cop things." Even then, these "things" vary from department to department.

BTW, blood drawing is a no-brainer that can be performed by a paraplegic urangotan, and can be taught in five minutes.

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Old 2nd September 2017, 12:44 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Sounds like you're saying cops should not carry defibrillators or Narcan, or administer CPR, or be able to deliver babies, or be trained in or perform any other medical procedures. For that matter, it sounds like you're saying cops should not do things like animal control or search and rescue, or carry stuffed toys in their cars for traumatized children. Cops should stick entirely to law enforcement and leave all of these other activities to the proper departments.

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Police should not do those things. They cannot be trusted with responsibility beyond a very narrow scope. They are the necessary evil that should be as seen as little as necessary and shunned like tanners in the middle ages.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 12:48 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
BTW, blood drawing is a no-brainer that can be performed by a paraplegic urangotan, and can be taught in five minutes.
<pedant>
Venous blood drawing, anyway.
</pedant>
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:13 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Police should not do those things. They cannot be trusted with responsibility beyond a very narrow scope. They are the necessary evil that should be as seen as little as necessary and shunned like tanners in the middle ages.
You're indulging in irony yes?
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:18 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
You're indulging in irony yes?
No.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:25 PM   #96
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As far as I know most police departments are not in the habit of hiring bullies who want a license to kill. Many police officers (about half I think) have higher education that includes a 4-year degree. They are for the most part vetted to ensure they are fit to use force when required.

These people are a group that is very readily available for roles beyond mere law enforcement. They are civil servants with the resources to help others in time of need. While covering bad cops makes for better headlines and sells more ad space, the good the police do far outweighs the bad.

My daughter is a police officer with a degree; this makes me biased, but I'm not blinded by prejudice either.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:33 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
As far as I know most police departments are not in the habit of hiring bullies who want a license to kill. Many police officers (about half I think) have higher education that includes a 4-year degree. They are for the most part vetted to ensure they are fit to use force when required.

These people are a group that is very readily available for roles beyond mere law enforcement. They are civil servants with the resources to help others in time of need. While covering bad cops makes for better headlines and sells more ad space, the good the police do far outweighs the bad.

My daughter is a police officer with a degree; this makes me biased, but I'm not blinded by prejudice either.
Law enforcement is a necessary evil. They should be given as small as role as possible and not have it expanded such that their power is inflated.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:49 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Police should not do those things. They cannot be trusted with responsibility beyond a very narrow scope. They are the necessary evil that should be as seen as little as necessary and shunned like tanners in the middle ages.
That's stupid. There is nothing wrong with anybody, or even everybody, knowing how to do these things, and even doing them should circumstances require.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:51 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Law enforcement is a necessary evil. They should be given as small as role as possible and not have it expanded such that their power is inflated.
Again, this is stupid. No expansion of power is required for those cases. Anyone can render emergency aid, no power is required. Preventing cops from doing so doesn't limit their power, it only limits their usefulness.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 01:55 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Again, this is stupid. No expansion of power is required for those cases. Anyone can render emergency aid, no power is required. Preventing cops from doing so doesn't limit their power, it only limits their usefulness.
It does limit their power. Doing those things improved their public standing and leads to such notions that police are positive. This grants them more ability to convince. Law enforcement should be viewed as lepers.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:20 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
While covering bad cops makes for better headlines and sells more ad space, the good the police do far outweighs the bad.

My daughter is a police officer with a degree; this makes me biased, but I'm not blinded by prejudice either.
The saying in the news media is that, "If it bleeds, it leads." That is, drama sells.

It's also worth pointing out that police misbehavior in the United States is rare enough that it is considered news; if good cops were in the minority, presumably they would get into the news far more often than they do and we would rarely hear about the bad cops.

Also, most incidents that make the news don't seem to involve "bad cops," in the sense of corrupt or malevalent, so much as poorly-trained or less-competent. Perhaps the bar should be raised before putting them on the street.

Full disclosure: I've attended two different citizens' police academies and, I suppose, have a natural bias. OTOH, while not making too much of it, I think I can claim to have a little direct aquaintance with the subject.

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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:21 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Law enforcement is a necessary evil. They should be given as small as role as possible and not have it expanded such that their power is inflated.
How much is that?

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Old 2nd September 2017, 02:50 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
It's also worth pointing out that police misbehavior in the United States is rare enough that it is considered news; if good cops were in the minority, presumably they would get into the news far more often than they do and we would rarely hear about the bad cops.
Do we really know the extent of police misbehavior?

I note that Ms. Wubbels had hired a lawyer, who had an elaborate correspondence with the police, before she released the bodycam footage to the press. How many people can, or want, to spend that money on an uncertain outcome? The proliferation of smartphone cameras (for third-party witnesses) and bodycams and dashcams has certainly brought much more of these cases to the attention of the public with undeniable documentation, but it doesn't mean we get to see all of them; I'd think still a minority, and that in the great majority of the cases, the victim either doesn't have the money or doesn't think it worth to go with it to the press. The police can still harass, in a one-on-one situation, a poor black kid in the ghetto - there's also still a racial disparity to this due to racial income inequality.

Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Also, most incidents that make the news don't seem to involve "bad cops," in the sense of corrupt or malevalent, so much as poorly-trained or less-competent. Perhaps the bar should be raised before putting them on the street.
Does it really matter if the cop was "bad" or "poorly trained" when you end up dead, like Mr. Castillo or the Australian lady whose name evades me at the moment?

And personally, I would probably put the bar on "misconduct" much lower than you, especially when it comes to incidents with a deadly outcome. I'm not saying every victim of a police shooting is unjustified, but those two are beyond the pale IMHO.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 03:16 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Am I the only one finding it disturbing that there's such a thing as a "Police phlebotomist", who's supposedly trained to take blood?
I do. I have no idea whether it is possible in the UK.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 03:35 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And personally, I would probably put the bar on "misconduct" much lower than you, especially when it comes to incidents with a deadly outcome. I'm not saying every victim of a police shooting is unjustified, but those two are beyond the pale IMHO.
Umm, I meant the bar on training. Pleas reread what I wrote.



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Old 2nd September 2017, 03:43 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
...
BTW, blood drawing is a no-brainer that can be performed by a paraplegic urangotan, and can be taught in five minutes....
I'm on the side of why not teach cops to draw blood, there are times it makes sense.

But as for drawing blood being a no brainer, as someone who draws blood several times a week and has for decades, there is more to it than that, the main thing being a person needs to draw enough blood on a regular basis to stay good at it.

The procedure is easy, the skill is acquired with practice, a lot of it.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 04:43 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It does limit their power. Doing those things improved their public standing and leads to such notions that police are positive.
Oh noes!!!!!

Quote:
This grants them more ability to convince.
Oh noes!!!!!

Quote:
Law enforcement should be viewed as lepers.
Conditions in places where this is true suggests to me that we should do otherwise.

Look, I get the whole government is a necessary evil thing. But you're just taking it to ridiculous extremes. Plus, you're tilting at windmills. Your view will never, ever hold sway. You must know this.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 04:46 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
l

Look, I get the whole government is a necessary evil thing. But you're just taking it to ridiculous extremes. Plus, you're tilting at windmills. Your view will never, ever hold sway. You must know this.
Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice. Also, tilting at windmills is about imaginary enemies. Here, the enemies are real, I just will never win. I think the better idiom is sisyphean.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 05:12 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm on the side of why not teach cops to draw blood, there are times it makes sense.

But as for drawing blood being a no brainer, as someone who draws blood several times a week and has for decades, there is more to it than that, the main thing being a person needs to draw enough blood on a regular basis to stay good at it.

The procedure is easy, the skill is acquired with practice, a lot of it.
Shrug. I never had any problem.

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Old 2nd September 2017, 05:23 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice. Also, tilting at windmills is about imaginary enemies. Here, the enemies are real, I just will never win. I think the better idiom is sisyphean.
That's "Extremism in *defense* of liberty is no vice." It continues, "Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

If you really think that liberty and justice would be better served with no police force, I really have no suggestion where you could realistically find such a society.

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Old 2nd September 2017, 05:25 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Law enforcement is a necessary evil. They should be given as small as role as possible and not have it expanded such that their power is inflated.
You are being rather vague. Exactly what powers should a police officer have and what kind of services rendered can be expected of them?

So should they be prohibited from rendering aid when needed in emergencies? I just bet would would limit an officer's response to you bleeding out on the pavement to calling for the EMT. I know one officer who was directed to use his police cruiser to rush medication between hospitals; at over 120 mph. There isn't always a helicopter or other medical vehicle around when you need it.

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Old 2nd September 2017, 05:34 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Shrug. I never had any problem.

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I take it that means you've never drawn blood from edematous end stage nursing home patient, an obese diabetic with extensive vascular disease or an IV drug user with no veins left?



If you drew blood on a regular basis you probably didn't have trouble. But a cop phlebotomist might not draw that often.

Remember, I'm on the same side of the issue as you.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 05:57 PM   #113
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[quote=Ranb;11982225]

So should they be prohibited from rendering aid when needed in emergencies? /QUOTE]

Yes
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Old 2nd September 2017, 06:07 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Extremism in the name of liberty is no vice.
It's appropriate that you say "in the name of liberty", because it is in name only that you want cops to not do what any decent person would do. That doesn't actually advance the cause of liberty. And believing so is indeed delusion on a Quixotic level.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 06:08 PM   #115
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's appropriate that you say "in the name of liberty", because it is in name only that you want cops to not do what any decent person would do. That doesn't actually advance the cause of liberty. And believing so is indeed delusion on a Quixotic level.
I think it does advance the cause
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Old 2nd September 2017, 06:09 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
That's "Extremism in *defense* of liberty is no vice." It continues, "Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

If you really think that liberty and justice would be better served with no police force, I really have no suggestion where you could realistically find such a society.

This signature is intended to irritate people.
Thank you.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 06:15 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think it does advance the cause
Yes, I know you think that. But you're wrong. There's a complete disconnect between what you want and what would actually happen.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 06:17 PM   #118
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I watched the video and I can't understand how the police officer thought he had legal authority to draw blood. The patient wasn't under arrest, he had no warrant and was not in a state to give consent. Where's the authority to get a blood draw? How could implied consent even apply here? This isn't complicated; it's basic police academy 101 stuff.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 06:23 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, I know you think that. But you're wrong. There's a complete disconnect between what you want and what would actually happen.
That is where you are wrong. I would readily concede to you whatever outcome you say. I will probably still say it is a net benefit.
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Old 2nd September 2017, 06:25 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is where you are wrong. I would readily concede to you whatever outcome you say. I will probably still say it is a net benefit.
One wonders what you can possibly believe "benefit" consists of.
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