ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags lawsuits , racism incidents , racism issues

Reply
Old 25th October 2019, 07:29 AM   #1
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,885
Company Sued in Racial Discrimination Case Says They Don't Know if Claimant is Black

So Tracey Evans, a clearly black man, sues his employer, Founders Brewing, for a racially hostile workplace and using slurs at work. In court proceedings, the defendants claim to be unaware of Evans' heritage and won't answer to whether he is black or not:

Quote:
‘I don't know Tracy's lineage, so I can't speculate on whether he's — if he's from Africa or not,’ Dominic Ryan, who is white, said to Evans’ attorney, Jack Schulz, when asked about the claimant’s race.
Pics of Evans in the article. He is not exactly a margin call for being readily identified as a black man.

I know that litigators can split hairs about definitions ad infinitum, but does this really make any level of sense as a defense?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-lawsuit.html
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 07:39 AM   #2
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,785
Seems like the perfect legal argument for our day and age.

"You discriminated against him because he was black."

"What even is black?"
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 07:40 AM   #3
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 17,150
Interesting angle. Due to EOC laws, employers are not supposed to ask/know an employee's race. Which takes inter-employee discrimination out of the employer's hands. An anti-discrimination Catch 22. Hahahaha.

As whites in America become a minority, as we are in California,.... where do I get that popcorn emoji?
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 07:53 AM   #4
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,885
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seems like the perfect legal argument for our day and age.

"You discriminated against him because he was black."

"What even is black?"
Metaphysical bigotry FTW.

Doesn't a simple Reasonable Person standard drop such a denial though?
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 08:01 AM   #5
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,940
"I couldn't have meant him when I said ******, if I didn't even knew he was black, now could I?"
Porpoise of Life is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 08:25 AM   #6
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,785
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So Tracey Evans, a clearly black man, sues his employer, Founders Brewing, for a racially hostile workplace and using slurs at work. In court proceedings, the defendants claim to be unaware of Evans' heritage and won't answer to whether he is black or not:



Pics of Evans in the article. He is not exactly a margin call for being readily identified as a black man.

I know that litigators can split hairs about definitions ad infinitum, but does this really make any level of sense as a defense?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-lawsuit.html
Okay, seriously? Yes, it does make sense. Not as a complete defense, but as a valid legal point: If the employer isn't legally allowed to inquire into the race of their employees, then as a legal question, their lawyer is absolutely going to assert ignorance on that point.

If the plaintiff's allegation hinges on the employer knowing his race as a legal fact, then he may need to look at a different argument to make in court. If the allegation doesn't hinge on that knowledge, then it's just an amusing legal sidebar.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 09:20 AM   #7
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 7,091
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Okay, seriously? Yes, it does make sense. Not as a complete defense, but as a valid legal point: If the employer isn't legally allowed to inquire into the race of their employees, then as a legal question, their lawyer is absolutely going to assert ignorance on that point.

If the plaintiff's allegation hinges on the employer knowing his race as a legal fact, then he may need to look at a different argument to make in court. If the allegation doesn't hinge on that knowledge, then it's just an amusing legal sidebar.
That he's black is information that is readily available. In this sense it's referring to the color of his skin, not his country of origin. The N word doesn't imply a ******* nation of origin. It's a derogatory slang word for someone who is black. The defendant's defense, per the article, is "he doesn't see color". He's basically claiming ignorance because whether he ******* does or doesn't his employees and, the culture he fosters, apparently does and uses it to cause an awkward working environment.

Nothing you said is relevant to this case.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

Last edited by plague311; 25th October 2019 at 10:31 AM.
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 09:25 AM   #8
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,121
This video has been making the rounds as a comparison.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 09:50 AM   #9
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 18,468
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That he's black is information that is readily available. In this sense it's referring to the color of his skin, not his country of origin. The N word doesn't imply a ******* nation of origin. It's a derogatory slang word for someone who is black. The plaintiff's defense, per the article, is "he doesn't see color". He's basically claiming ignorance because whether he ******* does or doesn't his employees and, the culture he fosters, apparently does and uses it to cause an awkward working environment.

Nothing you said is relevant to this case.
Indeed. Note that an employee does not need to be black in order to have the racist behavior be harassment. In fact, the legal standard is how the behavior is perceived by a reasonable observer, not by what the person doing it thinks it is.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 09:53 AM   #10
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
"‘I don't know Tracy's lineage, so I can't speculate on whether he's — if he's from Africa or not,"
A child's argument.

He's not from Africa, dumb ass, he's from America.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2019, 09:58 AM   #11
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,742
This is yet another of the many, many unintended consequences of using cheap, Chinese-produced plastic bags at supermarkets. We're killing the fish, warming the Earth and we can't even find a paper shopping bag to test and see if our employees are black or not.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2019, 07:11 PM   #12
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 77,111
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Interesting angle. Due to EOC laws, employers are not supposed to ask/know an employee's race. Which takes inter-employee discrimination out of the employer's hands. An anti-discrimination Catch 22. Hahahaha.
That only applies during certain stages in certain employer's hiring processes. You need to review that law before you repeat false information.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 28th October 2019 at 07:13 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2019, 07:39 PM   #13
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,242
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
A child's argument.
This. I doubt a jury will sympathize. In fact, when a person is obviously lying or feigning ignorance about something that anyone can see, it makes me less sympathetic. It makes me more likely to believe the plaintiff.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2019, 07:53 PM   #14
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,983
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Interesting angle. Due to EOC laws, employers are not supposed to ask/know an employee's race. Which takes inter-employee discrimination out of the employer's hands.

I represented a not-for-profit in a Civil Rights arbitration, the complainant alleging that she was discriminated against because she was black.

During the proceedings, the County Commissioner asked that we provide a breakdown of every employee by race. I certainly wasn't going to do that. I had the head of personnel submit a list, but included the language:

Quote:
Please note that I have not enquired about the race of any employee. The above list represents merely my guess as to their heritage. I have no special training in determining racial makeup and I may well, and probably am, wrong. I do not affirm that anything in this document is in any way true or that it represents the beliefs of the corporation. I have not shared this list with anyone else in the company and have not even kept a copy for my own files.

Why include that language? Because **** that guy for asking, that's why.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 07:43 AM   #15
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,885
What I am wondering about this line of defense is:

1) is it being used as a strategy to force the plaintiffs to prove water is wet, thus running coffers dry and forcing endgame?

2) is it being used to assert that since the defendants don't see race, they can't be guilty of racial discrimination?

3) Is it being used to challenge that the law they are being charged with violating is too ambiguous to enforce?

4) is the defense attorney watching too much Miracle on 34th st?

My question to the Legal Eagles on the forum is, why wouldn't a reasonable person standard get all up in here? Pull a simple Potter Stewart and declare a reasonable person would know that Evans is a black man?
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 08:03 AM   #16
Grizzly Adams
Graduate Poster
 
Grizzly Adams's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1,224
In a day and age where a person with an Adam's apple, deep voice, beard, and a penis can't be presumed to be a man, why would anyone assume a person is black for no reason other than they have dark skin?
Grizzly Adams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 08:16 AM   #17
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 18,468
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What I am wondering about this line of defense is:

1) is it being used as a strategy to force the plaintiffs to prove water is wet, thus running coffers dry and forcing endgame?

2) is it being used to assert that since the defendants don't see race, they can't be guilty of racial discrimination?

3) Is it being used to challenge that the law they are being charged with violating is too ambiguous to enforce?

4) is the defense attorney watching too much Miracle on 34th st?

My question to the Legal Eagles on the forum is, why wouldn't a reasonable person standard get all up in here? Pull a simple Potter Stewart and declare a reasonable person would know that Evans is a black man?
As I noted, whether Evans is black or not is irrelevant to the situation. You can't go running around the office yelling ****** just because there are no black people present, just as you can't have an office full of sexist crap just because there are no women there. Any person (white, black, male or female) can file a complaint.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 08:19 AM   #18
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
As I noted, whether Evans is black or not is irrelevant to the situation. You can't go running around the office yelling ****** just because there are no black people present, just as you can't have an office full of sexist crap just because there are no women there. Any person (white, black, male or female) can file a complaint.
What if I yell "fhtagn" in a crowded theatre on fire?
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 08:22 AM   #19
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 18,468
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What if I yell "fhtagn" in a crowded theatre on fire?
Depends on your pronunciation
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 08:23 AM   #20
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,885
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
As I noted, whether Evans is black or not is irrelevant to the situation. You can't go running around the office yelling ****** just because there are no black people present, just as you can't have an office full of sexist crap just because there are no women there. Any person (white, black, male or female) can file a complaint.
It's not irrelevant if the meat of the complaint is that Evans was being discriminated against personally as a black man.

Also, if it was irrelevant, what is the legal strategy?
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 08:47 AM   #21
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 87,107
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Depends on your pronunciation
Well, I can't guarantee that it'll be perfect, given that I'd be on fire.

__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 09:43 AM   #22
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 18,468
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's not irrelevant if the meat of the complaint is that Evans was being discriminated against personally as a black man.

Also, if it was irrelevant, what is the legal strategy?
Distract.

Exposure to a racially hostile work environment does not require the observer to be black.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 10:00 AM   #23
Armitage72
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,580
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Exposure to a racially hostile work environment does not require the observer to be black.

When I would go out in the field with the boss at one of my past jobs, he would sometimes comment on African-American people he saw sitting on their porches or otherwise engaging in leisure activities in the middle of the day, saying that they were lazy and obviously didn't have jobs, while throwing in racial slurs. If I offered alternatives, such as them working at night, he would proceed to criticize me for defending "those people". He was an ass.
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 10:09 AM   #24
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,885
Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Distract.

Exposure to a racially hostile work environment does not require the observer to be black.
To distract the plaintiff's attorney from repeatedly asking him about it?
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 07:10 PM   #25
Pterodactyl
Graduate Poster
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,187
It’s weird. We’re told at times there is no such thing as race. That it’s merely a social construct.

Also, we’re told that we cannot presume to know a person’s race just based upon how they look, as noted in the many Elizabeth Warren threads.

Now conveniently, apparently we can recognize both of these things.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 08:26 PM   #26
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,938
We can argue all we want but in the end we're just clothed monkeys. I'm not shocked by human stupidity anymore, I'm just numb to it.

I mean step back and examine us like the animals we are and our behavior is not surprising. It's funny that we can see this yet do little about it.

I'm not very impressed by us. I hope our species never invades the rest of the universe. I'm confident that it will not.
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2019, 08:44 PM   #27
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,242
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It's not irrelevant if the meat of the complaint is that Evans was being discriminated against personally as a black man.

Also, if it was irrelevant, what is the legal strategy?
I believe that the complaint is that these actions created a hostile work environment. As such, I think it is largely irrelevant.

I would consider it a hostile work environment too, even if I didn't feel personally targeted.

Quote:
In his suit, Evans outlines numerous examples of ‘blatant racism’, including co-workers repeatedly using the ‘N word’ around him or towards him
He also claims management assigned a printer the ‘white guy printer’, while labeling a printer for the lower tier of employees the ‘black guy printer’
It seems to me that, if these claims are true, it doesn't actually matter whether the employer knew that the employee in question was black. These behaviors are unacceptable even if no black people are present. It's not like "we can be as racist as we want to be as long as no black people are within earshot to hear it." That doesn't seem like the correct standard, no. It makes me uncomfortable when other white people assume that they can say racist things in my presence because I'm white too. I would speak up about it if that happened in my workplace.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 03:03 AM   #28
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48,312
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
It’s weird. We’re told at times there is no such thing as race. That it’s merely a social construct.
Just like religion, yet there is rather a lot of discrimination on that.
Quote:
Also, we’re told that we cannot presume to know a person’s race just based upon how they look, as noted in the many Elizabeth Warren threads.
While historically African Americans who could pass for white and did so are an interesting historical point they have no relevance to this individual.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 04:19 AM   #29
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,330
Here's an article from a source that isn't the Daily Mail, for the obvious reason:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ation-lawsuit/

The employer's tactic here is absurd. He's trying to claim that he couldn't know that his employee was black, and therefore couldn't have been creating a racially hostile workplace. When pressed on this absurd reasoning, he refused to state whether Michael Jordan or Obama are black, because he "never met them".

The employee claims a variety of racially hostile acts against him and a general culture of racial animus in the workplace. The employee claims he was called a racial slur, racist jokes were common, and describes being passed over for promotion.

This is a damn shame, because Founders was a very well regarded, very popular craft-brewery that sold beer throughout the country. Oh well.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th October 2019 at 04:21 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 06:35 AM   #30
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,885
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Here's an article from a source that isn't the Daily Mail, for the obvious reason:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ation-lawsuit/
Sidebar: I had a EU poster once that said some American media were not available to view in their region. For all its shortcomings, the Daily Fail seems visible to all posters, as long as the content is substantially similar to a more conventional news source

Quote:
The employer's tactic here is absurd. He's trying to claim that he couldn't know that his employee was black, and therefore couldn't have been creating a racially hostile workplace. When pressed on this absurd reasoning, he refused to state whether Michael Jordan or Obama are black, because he "never met them".

The employee claims a variety of racially hostile acts against him and a general culture of racial animus in the workplace. The employee claims he was called a racial slur, racist jokes were common, and describes being passed over for promotion.

This is a damn shame, because Founders was a very well regarded, very popular craft-brewery that sold beer throughout the country. Oh well.
As I see it, defense attorney likely advised witnesses to give their adversaries nothing they did not have to. Not the most remotely legal-conclusion-ish thing, no matter how absurd, and this one backfired by getting leaked and going public.

What I am wondering is, why did plaintiffs push it if it didn't matter? Was it to use in court later to frame them as lying buffoons? If so, why did defense attorneys let it play out, knowing how it would fly and that it could only hurt them and put them in a far weaker settlement negotiation position?

Last edited by Thermal; 30th October 2019 at 06:36 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 06:38 AM   #31
SuburbanTurkey
Master Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 2,330
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post




What I am wondering is, why did plaintiffs push it if it didn't matter? Was it to use in court later to frame them as lying buffoons? If so, why did defense attorneys let it play out, knowing how it would fly and that it could only hurt them and put them in a far weaker settlement negotiation position?
I'm no legal expert, but it was a deposition in relation to the lawsuit. Refusing to answer, or lying under oath, aren't really options, so you could end up with bizarre deflections and absurdities like this. What you see here is a man trying to thread the needle of not lying under oath while still denying any culpability for bad actions.

Very strange depositions with willfully obtuse actors are pretty common. The whole Bill Clinton quibbling whether receiving oral sex constitutes "sexual relations" comes to mind.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 30th October 2019 at 06:46 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 06:55 AM   #32
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,121
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
It’s weird. We’re told at times there is no such thing as race. That it’s merely a social construct.
Those two statements are very different. Social constructs are definitely not fictional.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 07:03 AM   #33
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,885
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Those two statements are very different. Social constructs are definitely not fictional.
But are they relative or demonstrable? Who decides? In the OP, defense is feigning to claim they do not know if Evans is black. Can they justify this claim?

Is President Obama black, or is he white? Or both, or neither? Aside from silliness like the one-drop or 1/64th rules, who defines these social constructs or do we go all Rachael Dozeal and identify at will?
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 07:07 AM   #34
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 48,312
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But are they relative or demonstrable? Who decides? In the OP, defense is feigning to claim they do not know if Evans is black. Can they justify this claim?

Is President Obama black, or is he white? Or both, or neither? Aside from silliness like the one-drop or 1/64th rules, who defines these social constructs or do we go all Rachael Dozeal and identify at will?
Yep like with religion, it is a social construct and as such it is impossible to discriminate against it. I mean they claim they are discriminating against jews but there are so many varieties and arguments over if they are really jews or not. Means that no one can be discriminated against for their religion. Simple and obvious really.

I suspect rather like religion the court is not going to depend on any kind of legal definition of black or legal definition of christian or any such thing.

Kind of like it is fine to tell antisemitic jokes at work as long as you don't know Abraham Rosenberg is Jewish, and what really is being jewish but a social construct anyway?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

Last edited by ponderingturtle; 30th October 2019 at 07:10 AM.
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 07:10 AM   #35
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,121
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But are they relative or demonstrable? Who decides? In the OP, defense is feigning to claim they do not know if Evans is black. Can they justify this claim?

Is President Obama black, or is he white? Or both, or neither? Aside from silliness like the one-drop or 1/64th rules, who defines these social constructs or do we go all Rachael Dozeal and identify at will?
Money is a social construct. Courts deal with it all the time. It's not difficult.

Unless the witness has a serious problem with his eyesight, he knows the answer to the question. It's not difficult.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 07:10 AM   #36
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,885
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm no legal expert, but it was a deposition in relation to the lawsuit. Refusing to answer, or lying under oath, aren't really options, so you could end up with bizarre deflections and absurdities like this. What you see here is a man trying to thread the needle of not lying under oath while still denying any culpability for bad actions.
I'd say he was quite obviously lying, and I think a judge or jury would, too. That's what makes me wonder if there was a better strategy at play, and we are getting the wrong impression. The whole navel-gazing 'what is a black man?' should get a brother charged with contempt.

Quote:
Very strange depositions with willfully obtuse actors are pretty common. The whole Bill Clinton quibbling whether receiving oral sex constitutes "sexual relations" comes to mind.
I did a construction report in a litigation once where the defendant denied that he had a contractual agreement with the plaintiff. When presented with contracts bearing his signature, he denied it was his. Just jaw-dropping stupidity, but because it was a low-profile, low dollar case, his stalling worked and they settled. In the OP, I would not expect a quick belly-up
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 07:15 AM   #37
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,885
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Money is a social construct. Courts deal with it all the time. It's not difficult.
Currency value is precisely valued. I would hope you knew that race is not.

A dollar has a world wide universal exchange rate. We have something comparable to define race, yes?

Quote:
Unless the witness has a serious problem with his eyesight, he knows the answer to the question. It's not difficult.
Hence the OP...
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 07:24 AM   #38
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,121
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Currency value is precisely valued. I would hope you knew that race is not.

A dollar has a world wide universal exchange rate. We have something comparable to define race, yes?
I don't know why these comparisons are being made. Race and currency are obviously not identical. My point is that, despite them being social constructs, they are still, in many cases, recognizable to any casual observer and able to be adjudicated upon by a court. Furthermore, they're definitely not fake.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 07:31 AM   #39
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 8,885
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I don't know why these comparisons are being made.
Because you brought them up.

Quote:
Race and currency are obviously not identical. My point is that, despite them being social constructs, they are still, in many cases, recognizable to any casual observer and able to be adjudicated upon by a court. Furthermore, they're definitely not fake.
They are not comparable, either. Money is hard-line definable and precisely quantified, so a court or casual observer can easily deal with it. Not remotely so with race.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th October 2019, 07:53 AM   #40
I Am The Scum
Illuminator
 
I Am The Scum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 4,121
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Because you brought them up.



They are not comparable, either. Money is hard-line definable and precisely quantified, so a court or casual observer can easily deal with it. Not remotely so with race.
The issue, as simply as I can state it: Are courts capable of adjudicating cases relating to social constructs?

To me, the answer is very obviously "yes." If you have an argument for the opposing view, then let's hear it.
I Am The Scum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:54 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.