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Tags general discussion , holocaust , holocaust denial , World War II history

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Old 4th April 2016, 11:48 AM   #241
ddt
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RIP Jules Schelvis

Jules Schelvis was one of the 18 Dutch survivors, out of ca. 34,000, who survived Sobibor. That is, he was one of the lucky few who were shipped off to one of Sobibor's satellite camps to do forced labor.

After his retirement in 1982, he decided to document his own experiences and raise awareness and honor the memory of those who died in Sobibor, and became one of the leading experts on the camp. The University of Amsterdam awarded him a honorary doctorate for his historical work.

In Memoriam at the Foundation Sobibor which he founded
News article at Dutchnews.nl

Today, he passed away in the age of 95 years.
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Old 25th April 2016, 12:04 AM   #242
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Denying History By Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman - A Critique

Denying History - Who Says The Holocaust Didn't Happen and Why Do They Say It? by Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman was published in 2000 and was supposed to put an end to the arguments of the holocaust revisionists. But not everyone was convinced. Here are 2 critiques -
Paul Grubach - http://codoh.com/library/document/405/
Samuel Crowell - http://codoh.com/library/document/2960/
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Old 25th April 2016, 01:45 AM   #243
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I'm sure there might even be a rational and balanced argument somewhere on that site, but I can't be bothered to hunt it down.
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Old 25th April 2016, 04:48 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Denying History - Who Says The Holocaust Didn't Happen and Why Do They Say It? by Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman was published in 2000 and was supposed to put an end to the arguments of the holocaust revisionists. But not everyone was convinced. Here are 2 critiques -
Paul Grubach - http://codoh.com/library/document/405/
Samuel Crowell - http://codoh.com/library/document/2960/
Holocaust deniers not accepting a refutation of their position? Next thing you'll post is that David Barton won't accept that the refutations of his works as they are "anti-Christian."
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Old 25th April 2016, 06:57 AM   #245
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I read the book and thought it was quite good. My guess here is that Alex Grobman wrote much of the best part of it. I thought that Shermer's pieces, particularly those in the later edition, were a bit too autobiographical and became a bit silly with his critiques of Niall Ferguson.

A good book on this subject is Lying About Hitler by Richard Evans in which Evans gives an account of the trial in which David Irving tried to sue for libel and was rightly defeated.
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Old 28th April 2016, 12:31 PM   #246
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New Documentary

Eric Hunt has made a new revisionist documentary called Questioning The Holocaust - http://questioningtheholocaust.com
A thread at CODOH about this - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10345
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Old 28th April 2016, 02:08 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Eric Hunt has made a new revisionist documentary called Questioning The Holocaust - http://questioningtheholocaust.com
A thread at CODOH about this - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10345
Oh, great, more Holocaust denying B.S. I will give it a pass.
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Old 28th April 2016, 03:45 PM   #248
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AS will the rest of the rational world.
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Old 28th April 2016, 09:38 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Eric Hunt has made a new revisionist documentary called Questioning The Holocaust - http://questioningtheholocaust.com
A thread at CODOH about this - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10345
Mondail are you going to enter into discussion concerning all the deliberate errors in this holocaust denier propaganda video you posted?

Are you simply posting neo-Nazi propaganda?

Please state your intention.
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Old 29th April 2016, 06:09 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Eric Hunt has made a new revisionist documentary called Questioning The Holocaust - http://questioningtheholocaust.com
A thread at CODOH about this - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10345
As a matter of fact I left this website after having read the sentence "The miniseries explores how we were manipulated into believing six million Jews were systematically exterminated in gas chambers deceptively disguised as shower rooms.

I wonder how this guy can question the holocaust when he proves in one single sentence that he has absolutely no actual knowledge of the facts...
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Old 1st May 2016, 06:35 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
I wonder how this guy can question the holocaust when he proves in one single sentence that he has absolutely no actual knowledge of the facts...
Eric Hunt has been in and out of non voluntary psychiatric care.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...re-3272563.php

In essence Bradley Smith who owned the denier website, CODOH, died a couple moths ago. Bradley Smith ran a donation scam taking large amounts of money off holocaust deniers to book $67 adverts in college newspapers (which he rarely did). Another group of holocaust deniers is trying to take over that scam by issuing "slick videos" and seeking donations.
http://codoh.com/library/series/3997/

Eric Hunt posted on the Skeptic Society forum and seems to be associated with the very elderly denier, Friedrich Berg. Eric Hunt does not seem to have a personality of his own and does as he is told, by older deniers.

The good news is all these old serious denier blokes are dying off, simply through age. Younger people promoting holocaust denial simply bring it up as part of a list of evidences concerning government conspiracies and have no idea about the facts. It is these younger idiots that the Rense Organisation is trying to attract.
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Old 2nd May 2016, 06:21 AM   #252
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Reading that article in the SF Gate, I guess Hunt is off his medication again.

And looking at the associated website (Yay for incognito mode), I was amused by the list of 'questions' he has. I'm not going to watch the video though, to see if they're expanded upon in it.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 04:37 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Mondail are you going to enter into discussion concerning all the deliberate errors in this holocaust denier propaganda video you posted?

Are you simply posting neo-Nazi propaganda?

Please state your intention.
What errors are in the documentary Questioning The Holocaust ? -
http://questioningtheholocaust.com
Do you deny that the Allies bombed Nordhausen and that the victims of this air raid are referred to as victims of the Nazis when they were killed by Allied bombs ?
Why do you insist on calling anyone questioning the official holocaust story a neo nazi ? There are Jews who are holocaust revisionists -
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6912
Here are 2 articles from Veterans Today columnist Jonas E Alexis on the holocaust. He is a black man and not a neo nazi -
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/10...t-is-a-racket/
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/04...ils-yet-again/
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Old 23rd May 2016, 04:47 PM   #254
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Here is another critique of the Shermer and Grobman book this time by Carlo Mattogno. Title is "Denying History ? Denying Evidence ! The Phony Convergence of Evidence to Prove the Holocaust -
www.codoh.com/library/document/1756/
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Old 23rd May 2016, 06:35 PM   #255
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Double post . sorry everyone.

Last edited by Matthew Ellard; 23rd May 2016 at 06:54 PM. Reason: Double post
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Old 23rd May 2016, 06:54 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Reading that article in the SF Gate, I guess Hunt is off his medication again.
The tragedy in this matter was Eric's suffering father and mother. After Eric assaulted Elie Wiesel and ran, Eric turned up at his father's house. The father paid for Eric's defence and in court.

Hunt pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.
http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/...esel-attacker/

However within 6 months Eric was back to having delusions and posting them as facts on holocaust denier websites and being manipulated by Freddy Berg.

As I said earlier, Bradley Smith died and other holocaust deniers are trying to takeover his donations scam by using Eric's glossy propaganda videos. These guys are simply small time scammers exploiting someone with mental health issues, for their personal financial gain.
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Old 23rd May 2016, 06:58 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
What errors are in the documentary Questioning The Holocaust ? -
I will start with the lies in Eric Hunt's Treblinka video. I set out all the lies in this thread.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopi...howers#p393589

Do you intent to defend Eric's lies?
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Old 23rd May 2016, 10:28 PM   #258
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Mondial? Are you the holocaust denier "Enquiring Minds" in the Skeptic Society forum?

Aren't you simply changing venues to repeat the same debunked holocaust denial propaganda?

Isn't this really just debunked spam?
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Old 27th May 2016, 08:13 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
Here is another critique of the Shermer and Grobman book this time by Carlo Mattogno. Title is "Denying History ? Denying Evidence ! The Phony Convergence of Evidence to Prove the Holocaust -
www.codoh.com/library/document/1756/
Yoo hoo Mondail? Are you there?

You keep spamming the forum with links to the neo-nazi website CODOH, but never respond to questions about the lies on that website.

Do you you intend to answer any questions or do you intend simply keep spamming neo-nazi propaganda on the forum?
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Old 28th May 2016, 05:00 PM   #260
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Ah I see that errant thread by Mondial has finally found it proper home in the thread for "all things out of whack".
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Old 28th May 2016, 05:35 PM   #261
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I suggest the film "Holocaust", a series of 6 documentaries from 2000 by historian Guido Knopp.

Anyone that after watching this series would question "Was there really a Jewish Holocaust?" would be in a similar position to whoever would try to question if Earth is actually round.
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Old 28th May 2016, 06:41 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Kyoon View Post
I suggest the film "Holocaust", a series of 6 documentaries from 2000 by historian Guido Knopp.

Anyone that after watching this series would question "Was there really a Jewish Holocaust?" would be in a similar position to whoever would try to question if Earth is actually round.
That's because you skills at evaluating evidence are substandard. You wouldn't say such things if you weren't so easy to manipulate. You should really try to be more skeptical.
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Old 28th May 2016, 07:29 PM   #263
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Evidence supporting # of Jews killed

My son says he doesn't believe there is evidence supporting the claim of 6 million Jews killed in WWII/holocaust. He says a lot were killed, but not that many.

Can someone point me towards evidence of how that figure was come by? I have looked but I can't seem to find how they determined how many people died.
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Old 28th May 2016, 07:48 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by RogueKitten View Post
My son says he doesn't believe there is evidence supporting the claim of 6 million Jews killed in WWII/holocaust. He says a lot were killed, but not that many.

Can someone point me towards evidence of how that figure was come by? I have looked but I can't seem to find how they determined how many people died.

Our resident history boffins will hear your call and offer their knowledge, no doubt.

They'll provide better links to peruse than I, but from the top of my head:

Learn about The Nuremberg Trials.
The Nazis had a nasty habit of recording everything, and filming many of their "successes".
This, along with testimonies from witnesses, survivors, a few of the more cooperative Nazis, and approx. 3000 tons of paper records enabled the estimate of six million to be reached.

The killing "machinery" of the Nazis was so well documented that estimating a figure wasn't difficult.(relatively speaking).

Maybe let your son watch the whole of the trials.
All of that was filmed also.

I wouldn't suggest making him watch the one-hour film made by the prosecutors which shows, in detail, the things the Nazis did.
It's very persuasive, as you can see from the stunned silence from the viewers in the Trials.

It's a fascinating piece of history, but one that I must leave to the experts to recommend further reading.

ETA: My only other piece of advice would be to slap his head, tell him to grow up and stop reading silly websites.

ETA2: Before I forget-
On this occasion, America actually did something right. The other nations wanted summary execution for the Nazis, but The USA wanted them to face a trial which would be seen to be honest and genuine.They wanted the world to see the evidence of the horrors. It was meticulously researched and made available to the public.

Robert H. Jackson, Chief U.S. Prosecutor, Extract from Opening Statement:
Quote:
This Tribunal, while it is novel and experimental, is not the product of abstract speculations nor is it created to vindicate legalistic theories. This inquest represents the practical effort of four of the most mighty of nations, with the support of 17 more, to utilize international law to meet the greatest menace of our times-aggressive war. The common sense of mankind demands that law shall not stop with the punishment of petty crimes by little people. It must also reach men who possess themselves of great power and make deliberate and concerted use of it to set in motion evils which. leave no home in the world untouched. It is a cause of that magnitude that the United Nations will lay before Your Honors.
Full Opening Statement

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Old 28th May 2016, 08:06 PM   #265
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No joke on the last paragraph, the **** that comes out of his mouth!

Thanks slip, I'll send that link to his email.
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Old 28th May 2016, 08:20 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by RogueKitten View Post
No joke on the last paragraph, the **** that comes out of his mouth!

Thanks slip, I'll send that link to his email.
I added to my post while you were replying.
"No joke on the last paragraph, the **** that comes out of his mouth!" isn't referring to Robert H. Jackson, dear readers.
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Old 28th May 2016, 09:12 PM   #267
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Actually, he's right. It was only 5,999,999.
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Old 28th May 2016, 09:40 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by RogueKitten View Post
My son says he doesn't believe there is evidence supporting the claim of 6 million Jews killed in WWII/holocaust. He says a lot were killed, but not that many.

The six million figure is basically a rounded number, used for its rounded convenience. If I recall correctly, depending on the historical scholarly research source looked at, the estimated number killed ranges from a low of 4.8 million to a high of 5.7 million.

Then, of course, there were the many non-Jews who were killed, with Russian prisoners of war being a large component, along with plenty of other groups deemed undesirable by the Nazi regime.
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Old 28th May 2016, 09:53 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
The six million figure is basically a rounded number, used for its rounded convenience. If I recall correctly, depending on the historical scholarly research source looked at, the estimated number killed ranges from a low of 4.8 million to a high of 5.7 million.

Then, of course, there were the many non-Jews who were killed, with Russian prisoners of war being a large component, along with plenty of other groups deemed undesirable by the Nazi regime.
If one "rounds" the range 4.8 to 5.7, the reasonable outcome would be five, not six. Six is outside the range. Can you explain why it has been rounded to six?
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Old 28th May 2016, 09:55 PM   #270
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If it is only 3 million, is it half as horrible?
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Old 28th May 2016, 10:37 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
The six million figure is basically a rounded number, used for its rounded convenience. If I recall correctly, depending on the historical scholarly research source looked at, the estimated number killed ranges from a low of 4.8 million to a high of 5.7 million.

Then, of course, there were the many non-Jews who were killed, with Russian prisoners of war being a large component, along with plenty of other groups deemed undesirable by the Nazi regime.
Wiki cites various authorities who have produced estimates of the death toll.
Early calculations range from about 4.2 to 4.5 million in The Final Solution (1953) by Gerald Reitlinger (arguing against higher Russian estimates), and 5.1 million from Raul Hilberg, to 5.95 million from Jacob Lestschinsky. Yisrael Gutman and Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust estimate 5.59–5.86 million. A study led by Wolfgang Benz of the Technical University of Berlin suggests 5.29 to 6.20 million.
for the rest of this study see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust, section entitled "Victims"
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Old 28th May 2016, 10:57 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
That's because you skills at evaluating evidence are substandard. You wouldn't say such things if you weren't so easy to manipulate. You should really try to be more skeptical.
I suggest you read the post you replied to again. I suspect you have misread it, unless you believe the Holocaust didn't happen.
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Old 29th May 2016, 12:45 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by RogueKitten View Post
My son says he doesn't believe there is evidence supporting the claim of 6 million Jews killed in WWII/holocaust. He says a lot were killed, but not that many.

Can someone point me towards evidence of how that figure was come by? I have looked but I can't seem to find how they determined how many people died.
More important.... with the political stances of your various relatives, can't someone here just adopt you?

"A lot but not so many" is the first sign of someone dabbling in Holocaust Denial, a very ugly faction of Conspiracy World.
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Old 29th May 2016, 01:05 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
If it is only 3 million, is it half as horrible?
No, 3 million means the Holocaust is a lie!

Furthermore, there's no proof that Hitler personally killed any of them. So that's another lie.
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Old 29th May 2016, 02:46 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
I added to my post while you were replying.
"No joke on the last paragraph, the **** that comes out of his mouth!" isn't referring to Robert H. Jackson, dear readers.
Thank you dear. Read and noted.

Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
If it is only 3 million, is it half as horrible?
He had no answer when I asked that. I said, wouldn't one Jew murdered for his religion be pretty awful really?

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
More important.... with the political stances of your various relatives, can't someone here just adopt you?

"A lot but not so many" is the first sign of someone dabbling in Holocaust Denial, a very ugly faction of Conspiracy World.
The light of my life is on these forums, he can take me anytime

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
No, 3 million means the Holocaust is a lie!

Furthermore, there's no proof that Hitler personally killed any of them. So that's another lie.
We went through that whole "Hitler didn't order the Jews killed" line already and I shut that down.

What really infuriates me about this is I have known a few people who were in the camps. I have heard first hand accounts. But they have either moved or passed away, and besides I can't like call some old person and be like, could you argue with my kid?

Also all of our Norwegian relatives who weren't already here (US) died in the Nazi invasion of Norway. It is like he completely disregards how we were personally effected by this (all our cousins are dead before we were even born). Not to mention I am Ashkenazi so they literally would have killed all of us!
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Old 29th May 2016, 04:07 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by RogueKitten View Post
We went through that whole "Hitler didn't order the Jews killed" line already and I shut that down.
Ugh, this is a murky one.

Have you considered trying to get him to read some scholarly works on the topics? For something brief, Browning's Ordinary Men. Then there's Kershaw's essay collection, "Hitler, The Germans and the Final Solution", and Browning's more-or-less definitive The Origins of the Final Solution.
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Old 29th May 2016, 04:13 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Ugh, this is a murky one.

Have you considered trying to get him to read some scholarly works on the topics? For something brief, Browning's Ordinary Men. Then there's Kershaw's essay collection, "Hitler, The Germans and the Final Solution", and Browning's more-or-less definitive The Origins of the Final Solution.
I will see if I can find those. Thank you!
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Old 29th May 2016, 04:20 AM   #278
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I'd recommend Robert Jay Lifton's "The Nazi Doctors". He goes into excruciating detail of the selection process from the point of view of the doctors and medical staff carrying it out.
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Old 29th May 2016, 04:31 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I'd recommend Robert Jay Lifton's "The Nazi Doctors". He goes into excruciating detail of the selection process from the point of view of the doctors and medical staff carrying it out.
Does it cover the record keeping?
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Old 29th May 2016, 05:14 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
I suggest you read the post you replied to again. I suspect you have misread it, unless you believe the Holocaust didn't happen.


Guido Knopp is the "house historian" of ZDF, the second German public TV channel, and has made a string of documentaries, and accompanying books, on the Third Reich. I haven't seen the one Kyoon mentioned, but I have seen and read his series "Hitler's helpers" which consisted of bios of several top Nazis.
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