ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , US-North Korea relations

Reply
Old 10th August 2017, 04:38 AM   #201
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 19,025
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Do they have the accuracy to hit Guam?

Or ...

Do they have the accuracy to miss Guam?
Quote:
A North Korean plan to fire four missiles near the US Pacific territory of Guam will be ready for Kim Jong Un's consideration in days, state media has reported
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 05:06 AM   #202
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,167
The only way the US could take out NK's capabilities would put Seoul in danger of retaliation, a danger I don't think we can deal with before it's too late.

Is it even possible to evacuate Seoul beforehand? Not without NK knowing about it, I gather.
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 05:13 AM   #203
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,053
This is all obviously fake news because Obama got NK to promise to halt their nuke program for food shipments.
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 05:17 AM   #204
bonzombiekitty
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,307
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
You're thinking too strategically, which unfortunately Trump does not do. You can bet China does. I wonder, what do the Chinese get out of having this bristling bit of militaristic peninsula attached to it? Why does China put up with it? Or Russia?
China puts up with it because as long as they like not having South Korea on its border. They don't want it to devolve into a real war which means at the very least, a ton of refugees flooding into the country. At worst, its a conflict with the US, which I don't think either side is at all interested in getting into. Even just on an economic level, the US getting into a conflict with North Korea is dangerous for China.

One would hope that if things start getting dangerous enough, China would support a coup or just march in and put things in order.

There's not much that I can see that the US can feasibly do that it hasn't already been doing. We can't even just drop a few bombs to take out missile platforms or the like. Anything the US does militarily would be met with a devastating attack on Seoul.

Maybe we can just make a time machine that will let us go back and not try to unify the Korean peninsula after pushing the N Korean invasion back.
bonzombiekitty is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 05:22 AM   #205
BobTheCoward
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,283
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The only way the US could take out NK's capabilities would put Seoul in danger of retaliation, a danger I don't think we can deal with before it's too late.

Is it even possible to evacuate Seoul beforehand? Not without NK knowing about it, I gather.
The solution is to omit them from our strategic planning.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 05:41 AM   #206
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 15,968
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think that Guam is part of the United States (and Korea and Okinawa are not)
is the reason; Kim wanted to directly threaten the United States,and his missiles don't have the range....yet....to hit Hawaii or the Continential US.
No longer true based on their last missile test.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 07:07 AM   #207
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 22,354
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Or ...

Do they have the accuracy to miss Guam?
Much pithier than my response!
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 07:45 AM   #208
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 38,061
At least Mr Kim is more polite than Hitler. He tells you in advance when he is going to attack.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 09:06 AM   #209
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,316
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
No longer true based on their last missile test.
Awesome!

Quote:
Regardless, the North Koreans have insisted they do have this capability, and earlier this week repeated threats that they can hit "the heart of the U.S." with a nuclear warhead. It followed comments last weekend from CIA Director Mike Pompeo that the North Korean people "would love to see" regime change.
Can their missiles reach the White House?
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 09:16 AM   #210
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 22,647
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
China might want to leak nuclear technology to NK to avoid war, believing that the rule still holds that Nuclear Powers don't go to war with each other.
I don't think that's ever actually been a rule. There is a rule that powers generally don't go to war if they can't win, or if the cost is greater than the gain. You can see how a face-off between two Nuclear Powers would fall under this rule.

The question would be whether North Korea having a few nukes, of less-than-intercontinental range, would be enough to gain them protection under the rule. Or at least enough for them to be able to extort concessions.

Also, war has been avoided for over fifty years without North Korea having nukes. It's not clear why they suddenly need nukes now, if the status quo is their goal anyway.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 09:22 AM   #211
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 18,876
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think that's ever actually been a rule. There is a rule that powers generally don't go to war if they can't win, or if the cost is greater than the gain. You can see how a face-off between two Nuclear Powers would fall under this rule.

The question would be whether North Korea having a few nukes, of less-than-intercontinental range, would be enough to gain them protection under the rule. Or at least enough for them to be able to extort concessions.

Also, war has been avoided for over fifty years without North Korea having nukes. It's not clear why they suddenly need nukes now, if the status quo is their goal anyway.
Their goal is not status quo. They want sanctions removed.
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon
Spindrift is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 09:46 AM   #212
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 17,133
I have this vision of Gen. Kelly wrestling with The PDJT and his phone, and shouting "Don't hit 'send'! Don't hit 'send'!"
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 09:51 AM   #213
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,058
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Since the truce how often have they initiated armed attacks against any other country?
0, which is about 40 countries less than the US. In doing so they have caused 0 deaths, which is about 20 million less than the US.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 09:52 AM   #214
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 18,876
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
0, which is about 40 countries less than the US. In doing so they have caused 0 deaths, which is about 20 million less than the US.
South Korea doesn't count?
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon
Spindrift is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 09:54 AM   #215
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,058
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
South Korea doesn't count?
When have they attacked South Korea after the truce?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:00 AM   #216
Babbylonian
Philosopher
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 9,819
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
0, which is about 40 countries less than the US. In doing so they have caused 0 deaths, which is about 20 million less than the US.
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
When have they attacked South Korea after the truce?
The first statement is highly inaccurate and your question is answered in the link.

Last edited by Babbylonian; 10th August 2017 at 10:02 AM.
Babbylonian is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:03 AM   #217
crescent
Graduate Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,695
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
When have they attacked South Korea after the truce?
Many times:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...th_Korea#2000s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_..._of_Yeonpyeong

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second..._of_Yeonpyeong

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking

Of course, NK disputes all of this - but they are not the most credible of sources.


(Ninjad by Babbylonian)
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:09 AM   #218
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,058
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
The first statement is highly inaccurate and your question is answered in the link.
"highly inaccurate"

Even if you want to include minor border skirmishes, which may very well have been initiated by the South instead, under "attacking another country" then it would still only go from 0 to 1. Which is still less than the error in "about 40" for the US.

Cognitive dissonance much?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:14 AM   #219
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,058
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Your second link (the first one denoting a specific incident) says South Korea initiated military force. Given that you're linking to, quite staunchly, pro-NATO sources and even then they themselves admit that it was the South which initiated military force, I'm not gonna waste my time with the rest of them.

You do understand that, even if we accept your contention, the difference between 0 and 1 for the "countries attacked by North Korea" is still less of an error than the "about 40" for the US, right?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:17 AM   #220
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,058
Besides, the US should learn to know what it wants. Under article 13(d) of the truce which ended the Korean war, no new weapons could be introduced to the Korean Peninsula. In the late 1950's the US declared that article null and void so as to be able to proceed to deploy nuclear weapons to the peninsula. Seems only fair that North Korea did the same thing in response.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 10th August 2017 at 10:19 AM.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:23 AM   #221
crescent
Graduate Poster
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,695
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Your second link (the first one denoting a specific incident) says South Korea initiated military force.
I am not seeing that, other than NK's claim that an SK boat had crossed the line - something never confirmed.

After that, NK was the clear aggressor, crossing the line many times; they were the first to open fire. SK was using non-violent tactics to resist the NK incursion, so NK opened fire - that's the initiation of military force.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You do understand that, even if we accept your contention, the difference between 0 and 1 for the "countries attacked by North Korea" is still less of an error than the "about 40" for the US, right?
They used to attack Japan, they kidnapped Japanese people and forced them to make movies.

North Korean abductions of Japanese citizens

I don't care about your ratio - regardless of how wrong America has been in the past, or how wrong America currently is right now in other parts of the world, NK is still in the wrong right now. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Last edited by crescent; 10th August 2017 at 10:26 AM.
crescent is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:28 AM   #222
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,058
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
I am not seeing that, other than NK's claim that an SK boat had crossed the line - something never confirmed.

After that, NK was the clear aggressor, crossing the line many times; they were the first to open fire. SK was using non-violent tactics to resist the NK incursion, so NK opened fire - that the initiation of military force.
"The South Korean government decided at this point to use force to oppose further crossings of the NLL.[2]

On 11 June, the South Korean Navy began forcibly responding to continued North Korean crossings of the NLL by beginning a "bumping offensive", using its boats to physically push aside the North Koreans. Four North Korean boats were damaged, two seriously, while three of the South Korean boats suffered damage to their hulls. The North Koreans retaliated on 12 June by attempting their own "bumping offensive" but were outmanoeuvred by the South Koreans.[6]"

Using military ships to "bump into" another country's ships constitutes military force.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:31 AM   #223
Babbylonian
Philosopher
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 9,819
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
"highly inaccurate"

Even if you want to include minor border skirmishes, which may very well have been initiated by the South instead, under "attacking another country" then it would still only go from 0 to 1. Which is still less than the error in "about 40" for the US.

Cognitive dissonance much?
I'm sorry, but we don't count attacks on US forces as attacks on another country?

I'm not making a claim for perfect purity on the part of the US or South Korea, nor would I excuse cases of foolish aggression and overreach on the part of the US, but **0** was a big claim and ignored a lot of provocative acts.
Babbylonian is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:39 AM   #224
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,058
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
They used to attack Japan, they kidnapped Japanese people and forced them to make movies.

North Korean abductions of Japanese citizens
This is getting ridiculous. Remember the great USA-Italy war? If you want to include abductions as "attacking another country" then you could add Japan to North Korea's list, but the USA's list will grow by so much as well that the ratio probably wouldn't change that much.

Quote:
I don't care about your ratio - regardless of how wrong America has been in the past, or how wrong America currently is right now in other parts of the world, NK is still in the wrong right now. Two wrongs don't make a right.
You heard the one about that *********** jew who insulted the concentration camp guard? How outrageous, didn't he know that two wrongs don't make a right and that ratios are not to be cared about?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 10th August 2017 at 10:46 AM.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:44 AM   #225
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,058
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I'm sorry, but we don't count attacks on US forces as attacks on another country?
Only if they're in the US or on US Navy vessels in international waters.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:45 AM   #226
Fizil
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 563
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I don't understand something about nuclear arsenals. Countries that develop nuclear weapons are said to have nuclear programs. The revelation that NK could hit the U.S. with a warhead supposedly shows they are farther along than previously supposed. But hardware sufficient to travel thousands of miles and take out hundreds of thousands of people isn't cutting-edge technology. That genie popped out of the bottle decades ago.
It isn't really about the missiles. It is about the warheads. You not only have to have the ability to make nuclear weapons, you have to have the ability to make nuclear weapons that are small/light enough to be the payload of an ICBM.
Fizil is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:46 AM   #227
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,204
Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
China puts up with it because as long as they like not having South Korea on its border. They don't want it to devolve into a real war which means at the very least, a ton of refugees flooding into the country. At worst, its a conflict with the US, which I don't think either side is at all interested in getting into. Even just on an economic level, the US getting into a conflict with North Korea is dangerous for China.

One would hope that if things start getting dangerous enough, China would support a coup or just march in and put things in order.

There's not much that I can see that the US can feasibly do that it hasn't already been doing. We can't even just drop a few bombs to take out missile platforms or the like. Anything the US does militarily would be met with a devastating attack on Seoul.

Maybe we can just make a time machine that will let us go back and not try to unify the Korean peninsula after pushing the N Korean invasion back.
All good points. Thanks for the insight.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:57 AM   #228
Minoosh
Philosopher
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 6,204
Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
It isn't really about the missiles. It is about the warheads. You not only have to have the ability to make nuclear weapons, you have to have the ability to make nuclear weapons that are small/light enough to be the payload of an ICBM.
There could be thousands of decommissioned nukes in Russia, though. I'm not saying Russia would supply nukes to NK, but in theory it could. Same with Iran. How would we know?
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 11:14 AM   #229
Modified
Philosopher
 
Modified's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,401
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
"The South Korean government decided at this point to use force to oppose further crossings of the NLL.[2]

On 11 June, the South Korean Navy began forcibly responding to continued North Korean crossings of the NLL by beginning a "bumping offensive", using its boats to physically push aside the North Koreans. Four North Korean boats were damaged, two seriously, while three of the South Korean boats suffered damage to their hulls. The North Koreans retaliated on 12 June by attempting their own "bumping offensive" but were outmanoeuvred by the South Koreans.[6]"

Using military ships to "bump into" another country's ships constitutes military force.
It seems a very polite way of stopping incursions into your territory.
Modified is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 12:16 PM   #230
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,352
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
South Korea doesn't count?
Originally Posted by crescent View Post
You are also missing out its abduction programme

EDIT Ninja'd
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 12:34 PM   #231
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,352
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I'm sorry, but we don't count attacks on US forces as attacks on another country?

I'm not making a claim for perfect purity on the part of the US or South Korea, nor would I excuse cases of foolish aggression and overreach on the part of the US, but **0** was a big claim and ignored a lot of provocative acts.
Yes. Including recently using a nerve agent in a public place in a country that did have some relations with it (Thailand).

I know that we have some very one-eyed regressive leftists, but even so, the DPRK is one of the most oppressive regimes since the before the end of the Cold War. Equating that regime with the US, or the ROK is ridiculous.

We also know that the DPRK did want to reignite the Korean War several times during the Cold War but held back due to lack of support from the USSR and China.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 12:40 PM   #232
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,058
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I know that we have some very one-eyed regressive leftists, but even so, the DPRK is one of the most oppressive regimes since the before the end of the Cold War. Equating that regime with the US, or the ROK is ridiculous.
There is no equating, the US is much, much more dangerous and oppressive to the world than the DPRK. There really is no comparison here.

PS. Your use of far-right terminology like "regressive leftist" betrays your position a bit too obviously
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 12:44 PM   #233
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 18,876
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
There is no equating, the US is much, much more dangerous and oppressive to the world than the DPRK. There really is no comparison here.

PS. Your use of far-right terminology like "regressive leftist" betrays your position a bit too obviously
I was going to offer a hand but you don't seem to need a hand with those goalposts.
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon
Spindrift is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 12:49 PM   #234
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,352
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
There is no equating, the US is much, much more dangerous and oppressive to the world than the DPRK. There really is no comparison here.

PS. Your use of far-right terminology like "regressive leftist" betrays your position a bit too obviously
Would you prefer "Authoritarian Left"? Generally I consider the Left to be progressive, but when you start supporting the DPRK regime*, you earn nothing but contempt.



*which probably has managed to kill more people than the US since the end of the Cold War (and there are many situations where the US was in the wrong)
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 12:53 PM   #235
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,058
Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
I was going to offer a hand but you don't seem to need a hand with those goalposts.
What goalposts?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 12:55 PM   #236
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,058
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Would you prefer "Authoritarian Left"? Generally I consider the Left to be progressive, but when you start supporting the DPRK regime*, you earn nothing but contempt.
From right-wingers? How unexpected.

Quote:
*which probably has managed to kill more people than the US since the end of the Cold War (and there are many situations where the US was in the wrong)
If that were true they wouldn't have any population left
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 01:12 PM   #237
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,352
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
From right-wingers? How unexpected.



If that were true they wouldn't have any population left
Most people wouldn't call me a right-winger. You might notice that my signature proclaims the cost efficiency of a universal healthcare system. In European terms, I'm probably closest to the Social Democratic parties. You might consider them to be right wing, but that would be a rather eccentric view.

I guess from your username, you would consider yourself a Communist, regardless of that, it is silly to call someone a right-winger because they deride you for supporting a regime that Khrushchev denounced.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 01:22 PM   #238
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,058
Apparently the biggest event of killing North Koreans so far was done by...the US (as if that's a surprise)
Quote:
The bombing was long, leisurely and merciless, even by the assessment of America’s own leaders. “Over a period of three years or so, we killed off — what — 20 percent of the population,” Air Force Gen. Curtis LeMay, head of the Strategic Air Command during the Korean War, told the Office of Air Force History in 1984. Dean Rusk, a supporter of the war and later secretary of state, said the United States bombed “everything that moved in North Korea, every brick standing on top of another.” After running low on urban targets, U.S. bombers destroyed hydroelectric and irrigation dams in the later stages of the war, flooding farmland and destroying crops.

Although the ferocity of the bombing was criticized as racist and unjustified elsewhere in the world, it was never a big story back home. U.S. press coverage of the air war focused, instead, on “MiG alley,” a narrow patch of North Korea near the Chinese border. There, in the world’s first jet-powered aerial war, American fighter pilots competed against each other to shoot down five or more Soviet-made fighters and become “aces.” War reporters rarely mentioned civilian casualties from U.S. carpet-bombing. It is perhaps the most forgotten part of a forgotten war.
So, in short, the US installs/supports one of its most brutal right-wing dictatorship-clients in the Korean peninsula in the late 1940's. Korean communist anti-Japanese fighters, established in the North of the country, eventually decide to attack the dictatorship installed in the South. So the US utterly destroys the infrastructure of the North, including exterminating about 20% of its population.

Then an armistice is signed. But less than a decade later the US declares the armistice agreement null and void so as to introduce nuclear weapons to the peninsula. So now finally they got what they wanted, nuclear weapons in the Korean peninsula, and now they're whining about that and want to destroy North Korea all over again.

Americans...
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 01:30 PM   #239
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 5,058
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Most people wouldn't call me a right-winger.
Most people are stupid.

Quote:
I guess from your username, you would consider yourself a Communist, regardless of that, it is silly to call someone a right-winger because they deride you for supporting a regime that Khrushchev denounced.
You're not being called a right-winger because of that, you're being called a right-winger because of your use of far-right rhetoric about the "regressive left" and your never-ending support for capitalist (and fascist) imperialism.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 01:40 PM   #240
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,198
My dislike for Trump is approaching monumental proportions, but these attempts here to basically make Dear Leader Kim and the DPKR out to be the "good guys" here are truly disturbing.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:12 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.