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Old 10th August 2017, 05:10 AM   #921
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You seem to be under the impression, like Emily's Cat, that the goal is to make the Confederacy out to look as bad as possible. That's "us versus them" thinking. The goal, at least in this line of the discussion, is historical accuracy.
To accomplish that, you have to defend them from my salacious attack. You don't have to do that.
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:27 AM   #922
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
You seem to be under the impression, like Emily's Cat, that the goal is to make the Confederacy out to look as bad as possible. That's "us versus them" thinking. The goal, at least in this line of the discussion, is historical accuracy.
But their goal is to make the confederacy look as good as possible and so being opposed to that must mean we are slandering it.
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:30 AM   #923
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But their goal is to make the confederacy look as good as possible and so being opposed to that must mean we are slandering it.

"If'n ya ain't fer 'em, yer agin 'em."
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:30 AM   #924
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But their goal is to make the confederacy look as good as possible and so being opposed to that must mean we are slandering it.
My goal has been to make them worse as possible. That is why my position is the one that assign them the worst motives.
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:13 AM   #925
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
To accomplish that, you have to defend them from my salacious attack.
Your claim, your burden of proof.
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:18 AM   #926
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
My goal has been to make them worse as possible. That is why my position is the one that assign them the worst motives.
So, you're just trolling then?
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:20 AM   #927
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
So, you're just trolling then?
Are prosecutors trolling the state?
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:22 AM   #928
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Your claim, your burden of proof.
I said they did heinous thing X. You said they didn't. You are defending them.
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:17 AM   #929
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I said they did heinous thing X. You said they didn't. You are defending them.
If you said the Confederacy was responsible for the Rape of Nanking I'd defend them from that too.

The issue is not one of ideology but of truth. It's pretty simple: when you are wrong, you're wrong.
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:40 AM   #930
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
If you said the Confederacy was responsible for the Rape of Nanking I'd defend them from that too.

The issue is not one of ideology but of truth. It's pretty simple: when you are wrong, you're wrong.
And you would be defending slavers. There are definitely people who would be offended by that (I am not).
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:59 AM   #931
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I said they did heinous thing X. You said they didn't. You are defending them.
I said you were making an assumption, implying a conclusion not based on an available evidence. That's not defending the Confederacy, that's challenging your claim.
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:04 AM   #932
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I said you were making an assumption, implying a conclusion not based on an available evidence. That's not defending the Confederacy, that's challenging your claim.
That is defending them. An attorney who makes a claim that there is lack of evidence is still acting as the defense.
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:14 AM   #933
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And you would be defending slavers. There are definitely people who would be offended by that (I am not).
Um, okay. So what? I'm not worried about offending people by telling the truth.

If I failed to point out that the Confederacy wasn't to blame for The Rape of Nanking, I'd also be complacent in allowing its actual perpetrators to avoid blame.
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:14 AM   #934
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Nope. Can't make any sense out of this line of argument at all.
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:34 AM   #935
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Maybe Nan King shouldn't have been dressed so provocatively. Why was she out late at night anyway? Maybe she was willing but lied about it afterwards. There's just no way to know.
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Old 10th August 2017, 09:10 AM   #936
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Um, okay. So what? I'm not worried about offending people by telling the truth.

If I failed to point out that the Confederacy wasn't to blame for The Rape of Nanking, I'd also be complacent in allowing its actual perpetrators to avoid blame.
There definitely is no so what, which is why I have no problem defending anyone.
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Old 10th August 2017, 09:42 AM   #937
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Nope. Can't make any sense out of this line of argument at all.
I have increasingly had the same problem with BTC's arguments in this thread.

In this case I guess that BTC is trying to illustrate (by example) that it is wrong to blame evil people for things that they have not done, and since BTC has maintained that the Confederacy was not fighting for slavery per se, but for the economic benefits of slavery (and this point appears to me to be incorrect and the distinction moot and absurd), it is therefore wrong to blame the Confederacy for defending slavery. Just a guess. But whether I am right or wrong in my interpretation of BTC's argument, I have no desire in pursuing it further.
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Old 10th August 2017, 10:35 AM   #938
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I have increasingly had the same problem with BTC's arguments in this thread.

In this case I guess that BTC is trying to illustrate (by example) that it is wrong to blame evil people for things that they have not done, and since BTC has maintained that the Confederacy was not fighting for slavery per se, but for the economic benefits of slavery (and this point appears to me to be incorrect and the distinction moot and absurd), it is therefore wrong to blame the Confederacy for defending slavery. Just a guess. But whether I am right or wrong in my interpretation of BTC's argument, I have no desire in pursuing it further.
It's semantic gameplaying, and reinforces a lesson that members probably should have learned by now...
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Old 10th August 2017, 10:37 AM   #939
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It's semantic gameplaying, and reinforces a lesson that members probably should have learned by now...
It isn't a game. Semantics is important.
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Old 10th August 2017, 11:37 AM   #940
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is defending them. An attorney who makes a claim that there is lack of evidence is still acting as the defense.
This is critical thinking, not legal arguing.

Words have meaning. You aren't using them correctly.
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Old 10th August 2017, 11:47 AM   #941
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This is critical thinking, not legal arguing.

Words have meaning. You aren't using them correctly.
The issue isn't that we need to separate the two. The solution is to simply accept the connotation around defend is misguided.
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Old 10th August 2017, 01:01 PM   #942
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I agree that semantics can be important, but so, and more so, the actual meaning of what we say.

In the case of the Confederacy, I truly believe that though there's a theoretical semantic difference between the concept of slavery and its practice, the two are indelibly wedded in the practical world where slavery actually is practiced. I sort of get BTC's point (or at least I think it's the point) that, because the promotion of slavery in the Confederacy was more than just a philosophical abstraction, it was tainted with practical greed and cruelty and whatnot, but insofar as there's a difference, I think that once an abstraction like "slavery" is actually practiced, the name of the abstraction includes all the odium of its peripheral implications, its corruption of thought, and its just plain evil practice. One can, in other words, say with reasonable assurance, that the Confederacy was about slavery, and not mince about with what part of its philosophical content was thought about by whom. If there is a difference between the abstraction and its consequences, the fault is as much to those who tout abstractions without understanding what they actually mean.

I think one problem in this whole argument, and one which perhaps BTC does not understand but which I suspect others do, is that by separating the concept from the practice one is suggesting that an abstraction is cleaner or less odious than its embodiment, and that the sin of the Confederacy would have been less if it had practiced some hypothetical other sort of slavery...e.t.a. or had agitated for its establishment because they were too stupid to understand the reaity.
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Old 10th August 2017, 02:35 PM   #943
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The issue isn't that we need to separate the two.
There is already a difference between the two. Conflating them is dishonest.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The solution is to simply accept the connotation around defend is misguided.
I have no idea what you are trying to say.


Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I sort of get BTC's point (or at least I think it's the point) that, [snip]

I think one problem in this whole argument, and one which perhaps BTC does not understand but which I suspect others do, is that by separating the concept from the practice one is suggesting that an abstraction is cleaner or less odious than its embodiment, and that the sin of the Confederacy would have been less if it had practiced some hypothetical other sort of slavery
Maybe? I honestly have no idea what point BTC is trying to make. It seems much more stream-of-consciousness to me.
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:52 PM   #944
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
There is already a difference between the two. Conflating them is dishonest.


I have no idea what you are trying to say.




Maybe? I honestly have no idea what point BTC is trying to make. It seems much more stream-of-consciousness to me.
I have had about 5 separate points. This thing about defending them is unrelated to any.other point in this thread. The only thing they have in common is someone said something I disagreed with.
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:17 PM   #945
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
There is already a difference between the two. Conflating them is dishonest.


I have no idea what you are trying to say.




Maybe? I honestly have no idea what point BTC is trying to make. It seems much more stream-of-consciousness to me.
That could be, of course, but I rather think he is engaged in philosophical niggling about the difference between an abstract concept and its implementation, because the sins that the abstract concept permits are not explicitly defined by it. Saying that the Confederate advocacy of the existing slave practices and economy was worse than simply advocating slavery in the abstract may be true but it's backwards to say that the abstract concept was not part of the bundle the Confederates fought for.

And since slavery existed in reality, and the sins that it engendered and enabled beyond those that might be contained in its definition were tangible and widespread, I would contend that any ability to advocate slavery as a purely abstract concept was lost forever, just as, if the high-minded and quixotic anarchists of old had succeeded in their establishment of anarchy, all who advocated it after would be answerable for its consequences.


If you want to say that the Confederates fought not just for slavery itself but for the peculiar and pernicious way it was implemented, fine, but that does not mean they did not fight for slavery itself in the abstract. It's included by necessity.
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:43 PM   #946
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And herein we learn why attempting to have a discussion or even argument via the rules of a court trail is inane.

Reality is not a court of law where you can determine truth on technicalities, semantics and beating people over the head with rules of procedures.
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:24 PM   #947
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
And herein we learn why attempting to have a discussion or even argument via the rules of a court trail is inane.

Reality is not a court of law where you can determine truth on technicalities, semantics and beating people over the head with rules of procedures.
I object.
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Old 11th August 2017, 08:08 AM   #948
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Overruled.
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Old 12th August 2017, 07:44 AM   #949
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There's a Nazi rally in Charlottesville, VA this weekend that seems to proving the point that these monuments do little more than anchor racism in public space.

Quote:
The first chant was a reference to efforts to remove a statue of Confederate general Robert E. Lee from Charlottesville’s main square — a fight that’s made this Southern college town an epicenter for white nationalists seeking to stem what they see as a tide of political correctness.
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Old 12th August 2017, 08:49 AM   #950
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I'm watching the coverage in CNN.
I am embarrassed for my country.
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Old 12th August 2017, 09:43 AM   #951
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White supremacists clash violently with counterprotesters ahead of Virginia rally
http://wapo.st/2hSsqOO
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Old 12th August 2017, 07:09 PM   #952
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I think I'm seeing clear evidence of a link between the Confederate legacy and fascism here.
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Old 12th August 2017, 07:26 PM   #953
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This situation really exploded today, didn't it.
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Old 13th August 2017, 05:10 AM   #954
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These folks seem so proud of backing the losers of history... Confederate and Nazi flags fly in equal measure at these events... are they hoping that 'third times the charm' since they have a PotUS who won't confront them for what they are?
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Old 13th August 2017, 05:19 AM   #955
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Originally Posted by Arisia View Post
These folks seem so proud of backing the losers of history... Confederate and Nazi flags fly in equal measure at these events... are they hoping that 'third times the charm' since they have a PotUS who won't confront them for what they are?
The fact followers of an ideology lost an armed conflict is not evidence the ideology is wrong.
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Old 13th August 2017, 05:25 AM   #956
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The fact followers of an ideology lost an armed conflict is not evidence the ideology is wrong.
Oh for... I swear if there was a zombie uprising you'd be defending the zombies just because you want everyone to know how much of a contrarian you are.
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Old 13th August 2017, 05:30 AM   #957
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Oh for... I swear if there was a zombie uprising you'd be defending the zombies just because you want everyone to know how much of a contrarian you are.
I would rather attack them for following a bad ideology rather than for following an ideology whose adherents lost a conflict.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:05 AM   #958
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The fact followers of an ideology lost an armed conflict is not evidence the ideology is wrong.
Who said they were losers merely because they lost armed conflicts? You are injecting srawmen.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:30 AM   #959
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Who said they were losers merely because they lost armed conflicts? You are injecting srawmen.
Arisia in post 954

Quote:
These folks seem so proud of backing the losers of history... Confederate and Nazi flags fly in equal measure at these events... are they hoping that 'third times the charm' since they have a PotUS who won't confront them for what they are?
Also, simply you thinking my interpretation is wrong is not a strawman.

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Old 13th August 2017, 07:00 AM   #960
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Location: St. Louis, MO
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Arisia in post 954



Also, simply you thinking my interpretation is wrong is not a strawman.
Simply repeating the strawman does not make part of the actual argument.
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