ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags LGBT issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues

Reply
Old 3rd August 2017, 06:10 AM   #361
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,053
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Welcome to my world.
By that you mean a man who gets his hair permed is a woman....right?
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 06:30 AM   #362
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,132
Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
By that you mean a man who gets his hair permed is a woman....right?
You seem to be supporting barbecuing babies.
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 06:33 AM   #363
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,053
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You seem to be supporting barbecuing babies.
Good. At least we're on the same page then.
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 06:37 AM   #364
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,132
At least for another 28 posts.
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 06:51 AM   #365
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,603
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well that's our point actually: the list is nonsense.
Yeah, the list is nonsense. And?
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 06:57 AM   #366
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,132
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Yeah, the list is nonsense. And?
And that's it. We're in agreement that it's nonsense. Yay.
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 09:53 AM   #367
xjx388
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,275
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The article about the OP clearly shows that men do have babies.
No, the OP is about a woman who gave birth while living as a man. The OP clearly shows that objective reality remains unchanged despite one's delusions and compulsions.

Quote:
And yet for millennia a little snip is all it took to turn a man into a eunuch.
Eunuchs were boys who were castrated. Still males, just ball-less.

Quote:
Yep just like men can only marry women of the same race. Women can't own property and so on.

Then there is my favorite little girls who grow up to be men.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2...o-boys-aged-1/

Thank god they don't actually exist.
A total non-sequitur to anything I posted; however those "girls" were always boys; they simply lacked an enzyme in the womb. When puberty hits, their maleness becomes more apparent. It may be possible that transgendered people have similar enzyme/hormone issues. With better science will come better understanding. However, it's still disordered development.
__________________
Hello.
xjx388 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 11:12 AM   #368
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,966
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So then we have "A woman would then be any adult human who exhibits the gender attributes (especially gender identity) traditionally associated with the sex that produces egg cells"
If you like? I think it might be easier if you just accepted a correction every now and then.

Quote:
To me, I don't see any difference between that and "A woman is someone who has gender attributes of a woman".
I do. The second sense is different from the first, and that renders the definition non-circular.

If you prefer, a woman is:

1. an adult human female
2. someone who has the gender attributes of a woman1.

There's nothing circular about that second sense. It just has a dependency on the (different) first sense, kind of like how our definition of woman1 depends on the definition of female, and especially in understanding that it isn't synonymous with woman.

Quote:
Apparently, that particular attribute isn't all that significant.
It is significant--it's how we determine which sex is female. It just isn't a gender attribute. Recall that gender is concerned with social, cultural, and psychological differences.

Quote:
It didn't use to be fuzzy and indistinct, and I'm not confident that its current fuzziness is a sign of progress.
It's always been fuzzy and indistinct. That's the reality--biology is complex, and we're trying to reduce extreme complexity down to a category with two members. We're fond of saying things like "life beings at the point of conception", but in reality there is no point of conception. There's a fuzz of conception.

Taking that on board does constitute progress, because its allows us to deal with the world as it actually is, and develop our simplifying assumptions in light of that, rather than just projecting received beliefs onto the world. Which is why there's a great deal of irony in all the people yammering on about "objective reality."
mumblethrax is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 11:18 AM   #369
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,132
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The article about the OP clearly shows that men do have babies.
Yay for circular definitions!

- A trans man had babies!
- It was a woman. Men can't have babies.
- Obviously they can, since this one did.

Or...

- Hey, I went to London by car!
- You took a plane. Cars don't fly.
- Obviously they can, since this one did.
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 11:58 AM   #370
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 14,429
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
There's nothing circular about that second sense. It just has a dependency on the (different) first sense, kind of like how our definition of woman1 depends on the definition of female, and especially in understanding that it isn't synonymous with woman.
We seem to be getting somewhere. So would you say that the transgender "man" who gave birth is a man, but not a male? That is to say, he's a man in terms of gender, but his sex is female?
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

Last edited by Brainster; 3rd August 2017 at 12:01 PM.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 12:00 PM   #371
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,132
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
We seem to be getting somewhere. So would you say that the transgender "man" who gave birth is a man, but not a male? That is to say, his gender is male, but his sex is female?
Sex: Female
Gender: Male
Hair: Female
Eyes: Male
Hands: Female
Hips: Male
Lips: Male
Bank Account: Female
Car: Female
Fashion sense: Female

Result: 60% Female
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 12:03 PM   #372
sylvan8798
Master Poster
 
sylvan8798's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,588
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Yes, but specifically it says that it refers to traits typically associated with sex.

It does not say that those traits are necessarily an expression of sex. You seem to be tossing out the words "typically" and "associated".
Part of what makes the matter fuzzy. We've become less rigid in what constitutes "typically associated". When describing typical female behavior, cultural, and psychological traits, what even are those? Women can fall along a pretty wide spectrum in all these areas.

They may be typically more nurturing, wear their hair in longer or softer styles, dress in certain clothing, be less aggressive in career pursuits, etc., but any given woman is likely to have these traits to a greater or lesser extent or not at all. And many possess traits "typically associated" with males. I know "girly-girl" women and "mannish" women, and every type in between. The same with men - macho? effeminate? what defines typical?

If we can't determine or assign a "gender" based solely on how many of these traits one does or does not possess, then it becomes up to the individual to tell us how they want to be seen and to live their lives in society (what difference would it make to a hermit, after all?)

For most of us, it's not something we have to worry about. We got parts, we go with it and fall somewhere along our respective male or female spectrum. For others, apparently the disconnect between the parts and the traits is so large that they feel compelled to switch teams, as it were.
__________________
DoYouEverWonder - Engineers and architects don't have to design steel buildings not to collapse from gravity. They already conquered gravity when they built it.

Polaris (wrt cluelessforum) - Bunch of sewer-chewing douche nozzles.
sylvan8798 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 12:18 PM   #373
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,517
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yay for circular definitions!

- A trans man had babies!
- It was a woman. Men can't have babies.
- Obviously they can, since this one did.
And of course if you can't have babies you are not a woman. Simple.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 12:27 PM   #374
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,966
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
We seem to be getting somewhere. So would you say that the transgender "man" who gave birth is a man, but not a male? That is to say, his gender is male, but his sex is female?
I think that's where we've always been. That's what it means to be transgendered--that your gender identity doesn't match your birth sex. The only thing this guy needed to do to get pregnant was stop hormone therapy.
mumblethrax is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 12:36 PM   #375
mike81
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 341
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course if you can't have babies you are not a woman. Simple.
No one has said that. It is this simple. A man cannot have a baby. To have a baby you need the female sex organs. Men do not have female sex organs. That is not saying that a woman who has had something like a hysterectomy or whatever is not a woman.

Now, I understand there are some people who feel like they have the wrong parts. I hope they live their life in whatever way makes them feel complete. If this person wants to call themselves a man they are free to do so. We are all free to call ourselves whatever we want.

To pretend that this is a case of a man having a baby is utter nonsense. This is simply a case of someone who wants to be, but is not currently, a man. I mean not biologically a man.

Last edited by mike81; 3rd August 2017 at 12:54 PM.
mike81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 12:39 PM   #376
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 39,517
Originally Posted by mike81 View Post
No one has said that. It is this simple. A man cannot have a baby. To have a baby you need the female sex organs. Men do not have female sex organs. That is not saying that a woman who is had some thing like a hysterectomy or whatever is not a woman.
And for example you can't judge by appearance because you have androgen insensitive males who look like women. That is why you need detailed medical information to class someone as male or female. And even then it can be tricky.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 12:56 PM   #377
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 16,834
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I think that's where we've always been. That's what it means to be transgendered--that your gender identity doesn't match your birth sex. The only thing this guy needed to do to get pregnant was stop hormone therapy.
So we have a person who is a man (gender is masculine), but not a male (because his sex is female). Great. Good terms.


Take down all the locker room signs that say "men" and replace them with ones that say "male", and it works for me.

Oh.......not everyone agrees? Hmmm.....figures.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 12:58 PM   #378
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,966
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Take down all the locker room signs that say "men" and replace them with ones that say "male", and it works for me.

Oh.......not everyone agrees? Hmmm.....figures.
You'll have to explain to me the biological need for separate locker rooms. I think that's all down to our curious social hangups, which implicates gender, not sex.
mumblethrax is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 02:23 PM   #379
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 14,429
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And for example you can't judge by appearance because you have androgen insensitive males who look like women. That is why you need detailed medical information to class someone as male or female. And even then it can be tricky.
And for other 99.9% of the population it isn't tricky at all.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 02:41 PM   #380
sylvan8798
Master Poster
 
sylvan8798's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,588
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course if you can't have babies you are not a woman. Simple.
Not simple. This is a logical fallacy (someone help me, I've forgotten the term).

All persons who can give birth are female.
This person cannot give birth.
___________________________________
Therefore: this person is not female.


This is a fallacy, because the statement "All persons who can give birth are female" does not exclude persons who cannot give birth, but simply includes in the term a certain group which is potentially a subset of all those who are female.
__________________
DoYouEverWonder - Engineers and architects don't have to design steel buildings not to collapse from gravity. They already conquered gravity when they built it.

Polaris (wrt cluelessforum) - Bunch of sewer-chewing douche nozzles.
sylvan8798 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 03:11 PM   #381
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,132
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course if you can't have babies you are not a woman. Simple.
Can't you even keep track of different posters? This is really embarrassing for you.
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 03:42 PM   #382
sphenisc
Illuminator
 
sphenisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,625
Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Not simple. This is a logical fallacy (someone help me, I've forgotten the term).

All persons who can give birth are female.
This person cannot give birth.
___________________________________
Therefore: this person is not female.


This is a fallacy, because the statement "All persons who can give birth are female" does not exclude persons who cannot give birth, but simply includes in the term a certain group which is potentially a subset of all those who are female.
As it's about not giving birth, I think it must be a fallacy of the undistributed middle.
__________________
"The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen
sphenisc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 04:03 PM   #383
p0lka
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 698
biologically xx is female and xy is male,
there are exceptions and they tend to have been recognised and labelled already.

If you wake up and feel like changing whether your a girl/boy which you identify with but you're not in the exception group, then I feel you are being lead by whats the cool and fashionable thing to do that makes you feel special.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 04:23 PM   #384
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 43,848
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
biologically xx is female and xy is male,
there are exceptions and they tend to have been recognised and labelled already.

If you wake up and feel like changing whether your a girl/boy which you identify with but you're not in the exception group, then I feel you are being lead by whats the cool and fashionable thing to do that makes you feel special.
A horrible car accident happens. In a groundbreaking amazing surgical breakthrough, one person survives by having his brain transplanted into another body! The body is that of a woman, though.

Is he or she a man or a woman now?
__________________
One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 05:06 PM   #385
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 14,429
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
A horrible car accident happens. In a groundbreaking amazing surgical breakthrough, one person survives by having his brain transplanted into another body! The body is that of a woman, though.
I Will Fear No Evil, by Robert Heinlein.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 05:34 PM   #386
p0lka
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 698
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
A horrible car accident happens. In a groundbreaking amazing surgical breakthrough, one person survives by having his brain transplanted into another body! The body is that of a woman, though.

Is he or she a man or a woman now?
I mentioned that already
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
there are exceptions and they tend to have been recognised and labelled already.
your example would come under the above in the sense that its biological thing, ie physical.
If you have none of the above then you're just following a trend that you find compelling and you're just trying to feel special.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 05:40 PM   #387
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 16,834
Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Not simple. This is a logical fallacy (someone help me, I've forgotten the term).

All persons who can give birth are female.
This person cannot give birth.
___________________________________
Therefore: this person is not female.


This is a fallacy, because the statement "All persons who can give birth are female" does not exclude persons who cannot give birth, but simply includes in the term a certain group which is potentially a subset of all those who are female.
Speaking of logical fallacies, you have managed to do a fantastic job of illustrating the fallacy of the straw man. That term is thrown around here with reckless abandon, but this is an actual case. PonderingTurtle has substituted a phony argument for a real one, and you have demonstrated the flaw with the phony one. That's exactly how the straw man fallacy is supposed to work. To demonstrate the fallacy with an argument about logical fallacies is quite cool.

There is one aspect of the straw man fallacy that I am not sure this fits, though. The straw man is supposed to be a deliberate construction. I'm not sure ponderingturtle understands the original argument adequately to deliberately construct the substitute. I'm not sure there's such a thing as an "accidental" straw man.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 05:48 PM   #388
Cavemonster
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,748
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You know, ponderingturtle and yourself are quite fond of telling me what I "seem" to be doing. How about you stop doing that and just go with what I post, m'kay?
I think it's important for you as a human being to understand this.

Communication requires interpretation. If I merely took the literal value of your words, and made no attempt to interpret, then I'd have to conclude that you made no argument and simply ignore you.

Instead, I make the interpretation that you're actually trying to make an argument and try to discern what argument that is.

It's what human beings do every fricking day.

Now I have a few options when my attempt at interpretation leaves me looking at an argument that does not look rational. Most responses would be more or less variations on these handful.

1) I can use my magical mind reading powers to discern what you really meant but left no reasonable clues of. Not too likely as I am not a psychic.

2) I can broadly ask you what the heck you mean, but then I'm very likely to get another bit of language that requires interpretation, so we're back at square one.

3) I can assume my interpretation is correct and respond as though the argument is as flawed as it appears to be.

4) I can present my interpretation in a context using words like "seems" to give you an opportunity to clarify what you mean.

Now I'm sorry if the word "seems" or the fact that casual language requires interpretations has triggered your delicate sensibilities. But some of us are concerned with clarity and truth.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 06:02 PM   #389
Noztradamus
Illuminator
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,539
Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
What a silly thread. Believing you are something does not make it true. A man is not biologically equipped to have a baby. Women have babies, duh.
You don't understand the logic

Axiom
Proposition: A person who cannot have babies is not a woman> This is FALSE

ergo
Proposition: A person who can have babies is not a woman> This is therefore TRUE

Crazy troll logic.
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 06:08 PM   #390
p0lka
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 698
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
You don't understand the logic

Axiom
Proposition: A person who cannot have babies is not a woman> This is FALSE

ergo
Proposition: A person who can have babies is not a woman> This is therefore TRUE

Crazy troll logic.
I don't think you understand the logic, read the above back to yourself.

edit: I replied before i got to the 'crazy troll logic' so i take it back, sorry, i should read the whole post before i replied

Last edited by p0lka; 3rd August 2017 at 06:17 PM.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 06:24 PM   #391
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,132
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
A horrible car accident happens. In a groundbreaking amazing surgical breakthrough, one person survives by having his brain transplanted into another body! The body is that of a woman, though.

Is he or she a man or a woman now?
They're now a broman.
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 06:27 PM   #392
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,132
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I think it's important for you as a human being to understand this.
Stop there. If you can't post without condescension, don't bother. And don't pretend that your weasel words fool me.

However, this:

Quote:
Now I'm sorry if the word "seems" or the fact that casual language requires interpretations has triggered your delicate sensibilities.
...bears a response: if you think you're being clever by using the word "triggered", which was co-opted by people on the far-left who think you can have PTSD from tweets, and which is used by opponents of the SJWs to point out how delicate they are, as a mirror against said opponents, especially when the context is completely different to anyone with two functioning brain cells, then you're not half as clever as you think you are.
__________________
<Roar!>


Last edited by Argumemnon; 3rd August 2017 at 06:32 PM.
Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 07:01 PM   #393
HarryHenderson
Graduate Poster
 
HarryHenderson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: All up in your business!
Posts: 1,587
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Ugh. The question is whether a person is of the gender they claim to be by the simple fact of the claim itself. It is _not_ whether it's rude or preferable to go around on the street, pointing to random stragers while shouting their gender and, once one objects that you got it wrong, insist that they're insane and hope they kill themselves to get your gold star.
Funniest post in the thread!

Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Yes, but specifically it says that it refers to traits typically associated with sex.

It does not say that those traits are necessarily an expression of sex. You seem to be tossing out the words "typically" and "associated".
So in your world, women are allowed to define their "gender" any way they want, just as long as that definition doesn't discriminate against confused men who might want to become women? "So why again is the horse behind the cart?"

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course if you can't have babies you are not a woman. Simple.
You're like a walking logical fallacy. Good stuff!

Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
...Communication requires interpretation. If I merely took the literal value of your words, and made no attempt to interpret, then I'd have to conclude that you made no argument and simply ignore you.

Instead, I make the interpretation that you're actually trying to make an argument and try to discern what argument that is...
I've read that paragraph above 15 times and I'll be damned if I truly understand a ******* thing you're saying. If it's in any way profound then I'm a monkey's uncle.

Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
...Now I have a few options when my attempt at interpretation leaves me looking at an argument that does not look rational. Most responses would be more or less variations on these handful.

1) I can use my magical mind reading powers to discern what you really meant but left no reasonable clues of. Not too likely as I am not a psychic.

2) I can broadly ask you what the heck you mean, but then I'm very likely to get another bit of language that requires interpretation, so we're back at square one.

3) I can assume my interpretation is correct and respond as though the argument is as flawed as it appears to be.

4) I can present my interpretation in a context using words like "seems" to give you an opportunity to clarify what you mean.

Now I'm sorry if the word "seems" or the fact that casual language requires interpretations has triggered your delicate sensibilities. But some of us are concerned with clarity and truth.
Really? Clarity and truth? "As flawed as it appears to be"? Really? This is the best you got? And all while acting like a complete ********? You're literally making things up and then accusing those things of being flawed/irrational. Pro Tipô: Quit while you're not too far behind.
HarryHenderson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2017, 07:58 PM   #394
Cavemonster
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,748
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Stop there. If you can't post without condescension, don't bother.
Quote:
How about you stop doing that and just go with what I post, m'kay?
You have broken my irony meter, and reminded me why I go long stretches without engaging in this forum, I'm done.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 12:39 AM   #395
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,871
Since it has been explained that this is about the locker-room issue and not about calling people by their preferred pronoun, which locker-room would you prefer this person enter? How about this person? This person? How about this person? This person?
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 01:21 AM   #396
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 13,062
I still don't know why it matters.
__________________
Some seem to think the UK leaving the EU is like Robbie leaving Take That.
In reality it's more like Pete leaving The Beatles.

We are lions, not tigers.
Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 02:11 AM   #397
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,132
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
You have broken my irony meter, and reminded me why I go long stretches without engaging in this forum, I'm done.
Interesting. Asking you to discuss this topic reasonably reminds you why you don't post here often? So you don't like to discuss reasonably?
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 02:13 AM   #398
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,132
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Since it has been explained that this is about the locker-room issue
One poster does not speak for all posters. The crux of the discussion is not about that.
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 02:53 AM   #399
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,871
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
One poster does not speak for all posters. The crux of the discussion is not about that.
Then what is it about?
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 03:10 AM   #400
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 67,132
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Then what is it about?
Just go back a few posts and read the half dozen times I or someone else has explained exactly what it's about. It's not normal that so many of you seem to not read the thread, but then pretend that you understand the discussion.
__________________
<Roar!>

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:29 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.