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Tags LGBT issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 12th August 2017, 11:20 AM   #1041
DreamingNaiad
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Because it's pretty obvious that with all restrooms being available to all with no questions allowed, and pretty obvious everyone will have to use a restroom or shower at some point, everyone is being forced to accept whatever dangers there are from everyone.

If you say "I'm a transwoman, and I want to be able to use the washroom of my choice, and I choose the ladies room because I'm afraid of being assaulted in the men's."

The only thing you're accomplishing is increasing the likelihood you'll have to interact with women, without decreasing the likelihood you'll be assaulted.
It isn't that they are afraid of being assaulted in the mens'.

It is that they are outed to the community and can be at best discriminated against and at worst attacked.

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Old 12th August 2017, 11:27 AM   #1042
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Quote:
It isn't that they are afraid of being assaulted in the mens'.

It is that they are outed to the community and can be at best discriminated against and at worst attacked.
Okay; my bad.

But how does that change if they're outed by other women who are offended?

How does that change if they're outed by either a woman or a man in the ladies room as opposed to the men's?
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:34 AM   #1043
DreamingNaiad
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Okay; my bad.

But how does that change if they're outed by other women who are offended?

How does that change if they're outed by either a woman or a man in the ladies room as opposed to the men's?
People tend to use the bathroom that corresponds to their outward appearance. They only way someone could know is if they were in the cubicle with them.
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:40 AM   #1044
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Well, yes, running water did help speed up, and probably popularize the transition.

But ancient bathhouses like the ones in Rome were a disease vector. The Romans knew hygiene was important; that's why they built the baths. But they knew nothing about germs, there were no disinfectants, and the water was only periodically drained.

Everyone bathed together -healthy and sick alike. When one person climbed in with gangrenous wounds or an infectious disease, others would become ill.

Is that a practice we want to bring back now? Granted, we can keep the water cleaner. But fewer people are immunizing their children, antibiotics are losing their effectiveness, health care isn't universal, and there are still plenty of people in this country who do not want to appear in any state of undress in a public area, for any reason.

What possible benefit would MOST people see?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_in_Imperial_Rome
Ever been to a Korean bathhouse?

It's pretty nice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jjimjilbang
Quote:
A jjimjilbang (Korean pronunciation: [t͈ɕimdʑilbaŋ]; Hangul: 찜질방; Hanja: 찜질房; MR: tchimjilbang) is a large, gender-segregated public bathhouse in Korea, furnished with hot tubs, showers, Korean traditional kiln saunas and massage tables. Jjimjil is derived from the words meaning heating. In other areas of the building or on other floors there are unisex areas, usually with a snack bar, ondol-heated floor for lounging and sleeping, wide-screen TVs, exercise rooms, ice rooms, heated salt rooms, PC bang, noraebang, and sleeping quarters with bunk beds or sleeping mats.
I doubt that the hygiene issue is any greater than a public swimming pool.

ETA:
Of course, Turkish Baths are also popular:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_bath

Point being, your hypothetical is already a reality, and it's not actually the problem that you seem to think it would be.
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Last edited by Roboramma; 12th August 2017 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:43 AM   #1045
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Ever been to a Korean bathhouse?

It's pretty nice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jjimjilbang


I doubt that the hygiene issue is any greater than a public swimming pool.

ETA:
Of course, Turkish Baths are also popular:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_bath

Point being, your hypothetical is already a reality, and it's not actually the problem that you seem to think it would be.
No. Didn't even know the place existed.

Thank-you!
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:53 AM   #1046
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
People tend to use the bathroom that corresponds to their outward appearance. They only way someone could know is if they were in the cubicle with them.
That is true. If a person simply walks into a cubicle, answers nature and walks out, no one is going to be the wiser.

The creep factor comes in when someone really iffy- of any sex or gender wants to call attention to themselves somehow. That sets off the bells, and the prudent thing at that point is to leave as calmly and quickly as possible.
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Old 12th August 2017, 12:25 PM   #1047
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You're just being contrarian, now. I wish I could find the thread again, but the search function hasn't been good to me in a long while.

Well, we'll just add 'contrarian' to the list of words you have a different definition of. It doesn't change that the way you worded it, it wasn't someone's answer of many. Qualifiers are important.



Quote:
No, Facebook's options are for gender, not pronouns.

Right, but you brought up the Facebook thing in response to my point about the pronouns. I was talking about the new pronouns and you're talking about genders as if accepting the gender spectrum means one supports the new pronouns. That's not actually true.



Quote:
That's my point: it's what everyone says. So it's not very convincing.

I'll take that as a 'no, I didn't read any of the links'.



Quote:
You seem quite fond of arguing by fiat. You say I'm wrong repeatedly, and I'm supposed to just accept your word on it.

Yup, that's definitely 'no, I didn't read any of the links or the papers cited therein'.

Do you know why transgender people have BSTc that match their identified gender and not their biological sex? Why do transgender people respond to androstadienone as their identified gender and not their biological sex? Why do some people group somewhere in between all of these sexually dimorphic traits? Why do you reject all the research on this as non-existent?

You didn't even ask for evidence, and just asserted that no such evidence existed. None of the people being highly skeptical of transgenderism being anything other than 'feelings' and 'delusions' have expressed any interest at all in the scientific findings. They've been mentioned and even cited many times in this thread, but it's like other factors (ideological, 'ick' factor) are overcoming their curiosity. Hell, more than a few of the psychological studies on it have been ripped into for poor design and other issues, and one would think these would be ripe avenues for criticizing transgenderism in general, but it's almost as if opponents haven't even done cursory research into it.



Quote:
That's why I said it; so you could tell it was my opinion. Apparently you can't tell an opinion from a statement of fact even when it's specifically worded to avoid confusion.

Expect you're having an 'opinion' on a statement of fact. Sex and gender are not the same thing in the context of society and interpersonal interactions. This is a fact, in the dictionary with observational support and everything. Your opinion on that not being true doesn't matter. Even in scientific and medical fields, the term 'gender identity' is used to avoid confusion with the older usage. For someone who in this very post was complaining about arguing by fiat, this makes me yern for the mirroring technique again.
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Old 12th August 2017, 01:03 PM   #1048
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well, we'll just add 'contrarian' to the list of words you have a different definition of.
Someone who constantly takes a position opposed to someone else's, in this case out of principle. Which word would that be?

Quote:
Right, but you brought up the Facebook thing in response to my point about the pronouns.
No I brought it up as a point about how mainstream these related ideas are.

Quote:
I'll take that as a 'no, I didn't read any of the links'.
Of course you will, no matter how unrelated my answer is to what you'll take.

Quote:
Do you know why transgender people have BSTc that match their identified gender and not their biological sex?
This has little to do with my points. I'm not denying that gender dysphoria exists.

Quote:
You didn't even ask for evidence, and just asserted that no such evidence existed.
And that's a lie. Again.
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Old 12th August 2017, 02:38 PM   #1049
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If real people in the real world ever actually feel we've reached a point where this is a problem worth doing something about, then the easy solution is one restroom for everyone with cubicles.

Tada! Treat everyone equal. My frickin gawd this is lame.

This might be a good time to market your portable personal toilet invention if anyone should have one. "Pocket Pooper"?
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Old 12th August 2017, 03:10 PM   #1050
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
These are especially stupid or dishonest straw men. No one has here has made any argument even adjacent to this. The quote from Argumemnon there is a straight up lie. No one has said you're a bigot if you don't want to date or have sexual relations with a transwoman. No one has implied that.

Catching up after returning from vacation, so I haven't read the many pages after the post quoted above, but I have been in a thread where this was stated explicitly. No exaggeration.

Any time someone says that a trans-woman is anything other than a woman, or implies that they are different in any way, was bigotry. Specifically, the subject of biological males who refused to date transwomen came up, and it was called bigotry.
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Old 12th August 2017, 04:55 PM   #1051
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Someone partway through a transition will look out of place in any locker room.
Other than individual stalls, or outright banning trans people from locker rooms altogether, I don't see a solution that isn't going to make at least some people uncomfortable undressing around them.
But we are told that individual stalls for the transitioning person is bigotry, because it will hurt their feelings.

That's not an exaggeration. We're coming up on a new school year, and there will be lawsuits going on. A school official will suggest a separate changing facility for the student who identifies as a girl, but is a biological male, and the school will be informed that making "her" dress individually is unfair because it singles "her" out from the other girls, i.e. the ones that have vaginas.
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Old 12th August 2017, 05:23 PM   #1052
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
How many of them were in transition?

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I have never said they were

I said anyone could make out they are and wonder round anywhere

If someone is sick enough to do sick stuff like that, it is hardly a massive leap to put on a skirt and do this
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Old 12th August 2017, 07:40 PM   #1053
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
But we are told that individual stalls for the transitioning person is bigotry, because it will hurt their feelings.

That's not an exaggeration. We're coming up on a new school year, and there will be lawsuits going on. A school official will suggest a separate changing facility for the student who identifies as a girl, but is a biological male, and the school will be informed that making "her" dress individually is unfair because it singles "her" out from the other girls, i.e. the ones that have vaginas.
That is an exaggeration since the post argued that everyone should have individual stalls so no singling out could be done - rather than that suggestion which keeps individual rooms for girls, transgirls, and boys.

Also. "her".

No. Just her.
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Old 12th August 2017, 07:57 PM   #1054
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
But we are told that individual stalls for the transitioning person is bigotry, because it will hurt their feelings.

That's not an exaggeration. We're coming up on a new school year, and there will be lawsuits going on. A school official will suggest a separate changing facility for the student who identifies as a girl, but is a biological male, and the school will be informed that making "her" dress individually is unfair because it singles "her" out from the other girls, i.e. the ones that have vaginas.
I always use my vagina, regardless of where I am. You wouldn't believe how useful they are in your general life situation. \s
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:44 PM   #1055
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
If real people in the real world ever actually feel we've reached a point where this is a problem worth doing something about, then the easy solution is one restroom for everyone with cubicles.

Tada! Treat everyone equal. My frickin gawd this is lame.
And spring-loaded seats could solve the eternal whine about leaving the seat up/down
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Old 13th August 2017, 03:54 AM   #1056
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I always use my vagina, regardless of where I am. You wouldn't believe how useful they are in your general life situation. \s
If they were that useful you wouldn't all spend so much money on handbags.
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Old 13th August 2017, 06:38 AM   #1057
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I have never said they were

I said anyone could make out they are and wonder round anywhere

If someone is sick enough to do sick stuff like that, it is hardly a massive leap to put on a skirt and do this
Are you saying that if the law doesn't change then the perverts (who already exist) will start wearing skirts?
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Old 13th August 2017, 07:01 AM   #1058
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
If I see a 6' muscle monkey follow my teenage daughter into a locker room or bathroom, am I really supposed to sit tight and think "Oh, I'll bet that's one of those trans-people...no worries!" Despite the far more likely chance he is a standard-issue male rapist?

Same if you see your wife leaving the restroom with the club tennis pro. "Oh, no, Dear...don't you know they're really a woman?"

Seriously? Or do you think you're going to at least consider the far more likely scenario: the tennis pro is a standard issue male, and your wife just enjoyed a quicky on the bathroom counter?

OTOH...if you're a physical female, but enter a locker room full of standard issue men, how much time do you think you can realistically spend there before one of them reveals himself to be a rapist? Do you think he'll stop if you say "But, wait! I'm a man! Really!"

I'd say:

If you have the equipment to rape women, stay out of the women's restrooms, locker rooms, etc.

If you have the equipment to be forcibly penetrated, and look like a woman*, stay out of the areas most often frequented by those heterosexuals with male parts.

*Yes; I realize those with male parts can be forcibly penetrated, too, but I believe it's much rarer, and those thus endowed have a far better chance of defending themselves, at least one-on-one.
I'm still catching up, and reading, and replying, as I go along.

One of the things that amazes me in these conversations is that I read the above, and I know what some of the responses will be. I've read them before. What DragonLady has said ought to be just so incredibly obvious, and yet I know what responses are coming.
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Old 13th August 2017, 07:46 AM   #1059
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Also, the very few trans people I know would never undress in front of anyone, because of the rather high likelyhood they'd be assaulted for being different and the general discomfort of being 'outed' in general.
But the ones who make news are the ones who file lawsuits demanding the right to do exactly that.


I see so much denial in these threads. If "most trans people" were "all trans people", we would have a different situation. The reason things come up in the news is that someone, somewhere, demanded that they be accommodated even though they were not behaving like the few that you know. The lawsuits are demanding the right to undress in front of people, and/or to be around people who are undressing.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:06 AM   #1060
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
OTOH...if you're a physical female, but enter a locker room full of standard issue men, how much time do you think you can realistically spend there before one of them reveals himself to be a rapist?
Seriously, I don't know, how much time? What sort of locker room are you talking about?
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:15 AM   #1061
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Seriously, I don't know, how much time? What sort of locker room are you talking about?
Let's assume a male locker room with showers, where people of all the sexes and genders gather to shower, and change.

Let's assume our typical female-shaped college student, of either gender.

Let's assume their going to walk from the front door to their car an hour after dark.

Anyone want to calculate the odds they can do that with no unsolicited sexually overt behavior from any other patron?

How many times can that happen before a police report of some kind will need to be filed?
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:42 AM   #1062
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Let's assume a male locker room with showers, where people of all the sexes and genders gather to shower, and change.

Let's assume our typical female-shaped college student, of either gender.

Let's assume their going to walk from the front door to their car an hour after dark.

Anyone want to calculate the odds they can do that with no unsolicited sexually overt behavior from any other patron?

How many times can that happen before a police report of some kind will need to be filed?
I'm constantly astounded that this presentation seems to suggest "...and so the woman needs to alter their behavior."

How about the sexual predator change theirs. How about we change our attitudes about what behavior we "expect" from males. Even if the conclusion is the behavior is negative, that presupposition creates a sort of "I couldn't help it" rationalization.

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Old 13th August 2017, 08:53 AM   #1063
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Quote:
How about the sexual predator change theirs
Sure. Because we know they all follow instructions so well.

While we're at it, instead of teaching children to look both ways and be watchful of traffic, we can teach people in cars not to run over children in the roadway.
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Old 13th August 2017, 08:57 AM   #1064
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'm constantly astounded that this presentation seems to suggest "...and so the woman needs to alter their behavior."

How about the sexual predator change theirs. How about we change our attitudes about what behavior we "expect" from males. Even if the conclusion is the behavior is negative, that presupposition creates a sort of "I couldn't help it" rationalization.

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Rape is already illegal. We are, hopefully, already doing everything we can to prevent and deter the behaviour of sexual predators.

In some cases all that we can still isn't enough, and so some guidelines on the behaviour of potential victims seems reasonable.

Is that outrageous?
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:01 AM   #1065
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Quote:
How about we change our attitudes about what behavior we "expect" from males.
I have no idea now what behavior to expect from males.

In fact, I no longer know who is male, and I'm no longer allowed to ask.

2500 years of cultural evolution has been cut off at the knees to allow a tiny minority to put their comforts and desires before everyone else's. Seems like a very male thing to do to my eyes, but who knows?

2500 years of language evolution cut off at the knees as we can no longer communicate meaningfully for fear of being non-politically-correct according to the standard of the moment -which just keeps getting narrower.
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:13 AM   #1066
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I have no idea now what behavior to expect from males.

In fact, I no longer know who is male, and I'm no longer allowed to ask.

2500 years of cultural evolution has been cut off at the knees to allow a tiny minority to put their comforts and desires before everyone else's. Seems like a very male thing to do to my eyes, but who knows?

2500 years of language evolution cut off at the knees as we can no longer communicate meaningfully for fear of being non-politically-correct according to the standard of the moment -which just keeps getting narrower.
Why do you need to know who is male?

Nothing has been cut off. It's not like we got to a perfect point of society and "evolution" stopped. There has always been change. And there has always been someone digging their heels in out of misplaced fear.

Evolution doesn't mean things get better either. It is just change.

In what way can't you communicate meaningfully? That extra "Which title do you prefer?" somehow destroys all words?

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Old 13th August 2017, 09:14 AM   #1067
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And why specifically 2500 years?
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:35 AM   #1068
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Quote:
Why do you need to know who is male?
The very fact you need to ask that illustrates what I'm saying.

"Attention, everyone, we're looking for a person in a t-shirt and jeans who just went into the lobby with a gun. If it anyone sees them, please contact security."

Right.

Male or female? (oh yeah; not allowed to ask)

Race? (oh yeah; not PC)

Normal, or mentally ill? (oh yeah; no PC)

So...now we're either leery of every person in a tee shirt and jeans, or we're not leery of anyone 'til we see the gun.

Which version leaves fewer victims when the maniac starts shooting?

Do the think the final body count might be higher if the suspect is a disabled white man in a chair who wheeled into the lobby but the announcer couldn't figure out how to say that without risking a mob attacking them for the language they've used?

Because that is what happens: the actual process of discussion is constantly bogged down and derailed by the choices of words people use in their attempts to communicate now, so that no actual communication or genuine problem-solving takes place in a reasonable time frame.
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:36 AM   #1069
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Also, the very few trans people I know would never undress in front of anyone, because of the rather high likelyhood they'd be assaulted for being different
How high is said likelihood? Do we even know?
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:45 AM   #1070
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Let's assume a male locker room with showers, where people of all the sexes and genders gather to shower, and change.

Let's assume our typical female-shaped college student, of either gender.

Let's assume their going to walk from the front door to their car an hour after dark.

Anyone want to calculate the odds they can do that with no unsolicited sexually overt behavior from any other patron?

How many times can that happen before a police report of some kind will need to be filed?
I don't understand what the locker room has to do with the walk across the parking lot. Are they walking naked? Did they forget their clothes in the locker room?
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:49 AM   #1071
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The very fact you need to ask that illustrates what I'm saying.

"Attention, everyone, we're looking for a person in a t-shirt and jeans who just went into the lobby with a gun. If it anyone sees them, please contact security."

Right.

Male or female? (oh yeah; not allowed to ask)
So should people not even be PERMITTED to be transgender? Or are we adding to the argument that they should be considerate enough to stay locked in their homes in order to avoid confusing others in addition to not causing them discomfort in the public bathrooms?
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:50 AM   #1072
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I don't understand what the locker room has to do with the walk across the parking lot. Are they walking naked? Did they forget their clothes in the locker room?
Right.

Because kidnappers, rapists, and their ilk never, ever choose a target, then wait for them to move to a more isolated area before attacking. Never. Really.

Right; because kidnappers, rapists,and their ilk only attack people who are naked. By simply wearing clothes, we can all avoid being victims, into perpetuity.
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Old 13th August 2017, 09:51 AM   #1073
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
So should people not even be PERMITTED to be transgender? Or are we adding to the argument that they should be considerate enough to stay locked in their homes in order to avoid confusing others in addition to not causing them discomfort in the public bathrooms?
Is that what my post was about? Or are you mischaracterizing me again?
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Old 13th August 2017, 10:06 AM   #1074
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Rape is already illegal. We are, hopefully, already doing everything we can to prevent and deter the behaviour of sexual predators.

In some cases all that we can still isn't enough, and so some guidelines on the behaviour of potential victims seems reasonable.

Is that outrageous?
I disagree we're doing all we can when we tell the victim to change because telling the predator to won't work.

It's a defeatist attitude.

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Old 13th August 2017, 10:08 AM   #1075
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The very fact you need to ask that illustrates what I'm saying.

"Attention, everyone, we're looking for a person in a t-shirt and jeans who just went into the lobby with a gun. If it anyone sees them, please contact security."

Right.

Male or female? (oh yeah; not allowed to ask)

Race? (oh yeah; not PC)

Normal, or mentally ill? (oh yeah; no PC)

So...now we're either leery of every person in a tee shirt and jeans, or we're not leery of anyone 'til we see the gun.

Which version leaves fewer victims when the maniac starts shooting?

Do the think the final body count might be higher if the suspect is a disabled white man in a chair who wheeled into the lobby but the announcer couldn't figure out how to say that without risking a mob attacking them for the language they've used?

Because that is what happens: the actual process of discussion is constantly bogged down and derailed by the choices of words people use in their attempts to communicate now, so that no actual communication or genuine problem-solving takes place in a reasonable time frame.
When did I say you could never consider someones gender?

I was only asking because knowing seems to be extremely important to you. You have already been told that it is ok to ask if you are not sure.

Never in my puff have I been in a situation where my very survival has been dependent on knowing if there is a penis nearby. Gender is irrelevant to me. Like height.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the police can't give actual factual descriptions of suspects. That is a new one for me.
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Old 13th August 2017, 10:12 AM   #1076
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I disagree we're doing all we can when we tell the victim to change because telling the predator to won't work.

It's a defeatist attitude.

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I said that we should do all we can to change the behaviour of the predator first. Having done that, we may find that the problem still exists to some extent (as is the case with rape). Living in the real world and still wanting to do more, we also tell the potential victim about steps that can be taken to mitigate risk.

I did not suggest that telling the predator to change is useless. Particularly I think that there are many things we can do to deter predators with real results. None will completely solve the problem, however, and thus there still remains scope for actions on the part of the potential victim to be useful.
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Old 13th August 2017, 10:15 AM   #1077
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Quote:
Never in my puff have I been in a situation where my very survival has been dependent on knowing if there is a penis nearby.
Why, I'm certainly happy to hear that!

A great many have not been so fortunate.
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Old 13th August 2017, 10:36 AM   #1078
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Why, I'm certainly happy to hear that!

A great many have not been so fortunate.
You misunderstand. It's not that I have never been in danger. It is that a local penis census has never been necessary. Knowing where the penises are hasn't saved my life.

So again, why do you need to immediately know gender?
Why do you need to know for sure that a woman in front of you has a vagina?
Who said you couldn't mention it or ask?
Who said the police cannot give a factual description of a suspect?
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Old 13th August 2017, 10:54 AM   #1079
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Originally Posted by DreamingNaiad View Post
You misunderstand. It's not that I have never been in danger. It is that a local penis census has never been necessary. Knowing where the penises are hasn't saved my life.

So again, why do you need to immediately know gender?
Why do you need to know for sure that a woman in front of you has a vagina?
Who said you couldn't mention it or ask?
Who said the police cannot give a factual description of a suspect?
I'm always answering your questions.

How 'bout you answer some of mine for a while?

Do you believe men treat other men differently than they treat women?
Do you believe women treat other women differently than they treat men?

Do you believe men and women think differently?

Do you believe transgender persons think more like their preferred gender than they do like their physical gender?

I don't know what the psychological community says about any of these things, but I can Google that. I'm curious what you think.

Edited to add a couple more things, just because they're on my mind:

Do you think predatory people exist?
Do you think the nature of their predations is likely to be affected by whether or not they have penises?
Do you think predators are more likely to choose victims with -or without- penises according to their preference?
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Last edited by DragonLady; 13th August 2017 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 13th August 2017, 11:20 AM   #1080
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'm constantly astounded that this presentation seems to suggest "...and so the woman needs to alter their behavior."

How about the sexual predator change theirs. How about we change our attitudes about what behavior we "expect" from males. Even if the conclusion is the behavior is negative, that presupposition creates a sort of "I couldn't help it" rationalization.

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And I'm constantly astounded by the naivete I encounter on this. Why do we have to check IDs? Why can't the fraudster's just change their behavior? Why do we have to lock doors? Why don't the thieves just change their behavior? Why do we have to take precautions against any sort of crime? Why can't criminals just change their behavior?

The people who are at risk of victimization have to take precautions if they don't want to be a victim, regardless of which sort of crime we are dealing with.

As a man, the risk of my being raped is so vanishingly small that never in all my life have I ever worried about it.
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