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Tags atheism , atheists , immorality , morality

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Old 8th August 2017, 08:39 AM   #41
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
What a typical evasion.
what evasion? Did you wish me to repeat what is clearly addressed in the study?

Ok:

Quote:
However, Supplementary Study S3 found that people intuitively assume that a priest who molests young boys for decades is more likely to be a priest who does not believe in God than a priest who does believe in God (posterior probability = 0.998).
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:42 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
What do you think about the fact that religious people, even those who swore to serve "god", can be highly immoral?
Oh then you did see it discussed in the paper? It would save a bit if you mentioned that.

A priest who molests young boys for decades is more likely to be a priest who does not believe in God than a priest who does believe in God, that certainly makes sense from a number of perspectives, don't you agree?
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:44 AM   #43
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Morality makes sense. It's logical to get along with your neighbor, and it always has been. Mutually beneficial. It's logical to not lie, cheat, and steal; it leads to you not being trusted and having diminishing opportunities to continue to lie, cheat, and steal.

We don't need a deity to tell us to how to be ethical, and then have some scribes write that all down and have everyone pass it around. Especially when the Old Testament God constantly undermines that ethical code with extreme acts, like having a bunch of She-Bears attack some kids to prove to us that we shouldn't mock our elders for being bald.

I think what religious folks latch on to is it also feels right and feels good to be moral. This feeling must come from God, they propose.
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:45 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
By the way, I snipped the personal attacks, if that is all that you intend to bring to the table from here on in, don't bother.
No problem; the scroll bar is easy to find. Perceptions that atheists are less moral can either be founded or unfounded in fact, and your insistence - despite any content of the study that suggests anything of the sort - that they are not unfounded is functionally equivalent to a claim that atheists are objectively less moral than those with a religion.

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Old 8th August 2017, 08:46 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Did you wish me to repeat what is clearly addressed in the study?
That would be more productive than insisting that things are obvious from the study when those things are not in fact addressed at all.

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Old 8th August 2017, 08:46 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
I worked with a biblical literalist and he once asked me in all seriousness, if I don't believe in the word of God, why don't I just go around killing, stealing, and raping? He also told me he used to be like that before he found God. He found his morality and ethics through the process of being born again. Perhaps this stuff about atheists being immoral is simply projection on the part of frustrated religious folks that have these secret urges to do bad things? Why is it so hard to understand that we can create a moral and ethical framework that we believe to be right, and then follow it willingly (not with a threat of Hell over our heads, and the knowledge that we are born full of sin)?
Now, think about that for a moment. The claim made is that the only thing that stops your acquaintance going about killing, stealing and raping is an imaginary deity. Otherwise, said acquaintance could not help him/herself doing that very thing.

Atheists, OTOH, need no such moral dictator and do it all of our lonesome without any thug god to threaten us.

Who is more moral? The atheist who does it because it is the moral thing to do, or the theist who claims that it is what they want to do and only the imaginary deity stops them.

The atheist rejects it because it is morally wrong. The theist does it because they have no moral compass of their own and must rely upon some holy book, and we know that such nonsense leads to horrible events such as 911, beheadings, christina mass murderers like JJ, DK and any number over thousands of years.

Personally, I don't much care what anyone chooses to believe. Until they start chucking their own morals in favour of blind obedience with post hoc rationale.

That is simply parking one's brain in neutral and tossing your morals out the window in favour of ignorant obedience to whatever the prophet du jour instructs.
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:49 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
what evasion? Did you wish me to repeat what is clearly addressed in the study?

Ok:
You are still being evasive.

You were asked for your personal opinion on something of great import and instead of answering that question you simply referred to the study.
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:49 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
- despite any content of the study that suggests anything of the sort -
Dave
That is obviously not the only study, and as I have pointed out the primary flaw in the linked paper is to ascribe the conclusion to prejudice, other than things like the social and evolutionary advantages of religion, or other studies such have been discussed in detail in this forum
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:50 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh then you did see it discussed in the paper? It would save a bit if you mentioned that.

A priest who molests young boys for decades is more likely to be a priest who does not believe in God than a priest who does believe in God, that certainly makes sense from a number of perspectives, don't you agree?
Ah, the allmighty, invisible skydaddy allowed the priest to molest children by not intervening?

Seems like skydaddy does not have any morals and is totally fine with the torture of children.
This leads to the easy conclusion that believing in and worshipping a god who is fine with child abuse is completely immoral.

What is your opinion on the god who does not stop child molesters?

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Old 8th August 2017, 08:54 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
Ah, the allmighty, invisible skydaddy...
nvm
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:56 AM   #51
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More evasion? How immoral and dishonest.
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:58 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Qualified? You mean hand waved away, don't you? Because the studies that were presented were not qualified nor did the paper make an effort to do so.
Why?

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
What we see is a myriad of reasons why atheists are perceived as less moral, including the most obvious that atheists are less moral, and the fact that people are hard wired by evolution to understand that atheists are less moral.
False. Atheists are more moral out of altruism. Theists are only moral under threat of an imaginary penalty from an imaginary deity. Do you really think that theists would become amoral were god demonstrated to be a figment? Theists who were convinced that there was no god at all would let loose and venture on a spree of rape, violence, murder and theft because there was no god? Have we seen such? Of course not.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
By the way, I snipped the personal attacks, if that is all that you intend to bring to the table from here on in, don't bother.
No, you snipped those arguments for which you had no answer.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:09 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Atheists are more moral out of altruism. Theists are only moral under threat of an imaginary penalty from an imaginary deity.
who else sees the glaring errors and assumptions in the quoted section of the post above?
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:10 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Now, think about that for a moment. The claim made is that the only thing that stops your acquaintance going about killing, stealing and raping is an imaginary deity. Otherwise, said acquaintance could not help him/herself doing that very thing.

Atheists, OTOH, need no such moral dictator and do it all of our lonesome without any thug god to threaten us.

Who is more moral? The atheist who does it because it is the moral thing to do, or the theist who claims that it is what they want to do and only the imaginary deity stops them.

The atheist rejects it because it is morally wrong. The theist does it because they have no moral compass of their own and must rely upon some holy book, and we know that such nonsense leads to horrible events such as 911, beheadings, christina mass murderers like JJ, DK and any number over thousands of years.

Personally, I don't much care what anyone chooses to believe. Until they start chucking their own morals in favour of blind obedience with post hoc rationale.

That is simply parking one's brain in neutral and tossing your morals out the window in favour of ignorant obedience to whatever the prophet du jour instructs.
Yeah, it's scary. A different guy at that same workplace that was an atheist told me at the time, if that's what the guy needs to believe so he doesn't kill me, that works for me I guess.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:10 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
[...]as I have pointed out the primary flaw in the linked paper is to ascribe the conclusion to prejudice,[...]
And as I have pointed out and you have pretended not to see, the methodology of the study is specifically designed to study bias by automatically excluding sensibly reasoned conclusions and only accepting responses that are already subject to cognitive bias. Or did you not understand that bit?

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Old 8th August 2017, 09:16 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
And as I have pointed out and you have pretended not to see, the methodology of the study is specifically designed to study bias by automatically excluding sensibly reasoned conclusions and only accepting responses that are already subject to cognitive bias. Or did you not understand that bit?

Dave
who else understands the flaw in the above hilighted section?

Should be blatantly obvious.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:19 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
who else understands the flaw in the above hilighted section?

Should be blatantly obvious.
What is blatantly obvious is that the only answers counted as positives in the study are the ones that display conjunction bias; all answers that avoid cognitive bias are taken as null results and therefore automatically rejected. Therefore, all the positive results in the test are by definition the result of cognitive bias. Again, did you fail to understand that from reading the paper?

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Old 8th August 2017, 09:26 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
What is blatantly obvious is that the only answers counted as positives in the study are the ones that display conjunction bias; all answers that avoid cognitive bias are taken as null results and therefore automatically rejected. Therefore, all the positive results in the test are by definition the result of cognitive bias. Again, did you fail to understand that from reading the paper?

Dave
You are quite incorrect, because the "answers that avoid cognitive bias" (holy cats, what a loaded claim!) would indeed be recorded in the data!!!

Example: Linda is a good person, is linda more likely to:
a. be a bank teller or
b. be a bank teller who has a cat.

the people who recognize the fallacy would obviously pick A.

Did you fail to understand this?
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:30 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You are quite incorrect, because the "answers that avoid cognitive bias" (holy cats, what a loaded claim!) would indeed be recorded in the data!!!

Example: Linda is a good person, is linda more likely to:
a. be a bank teller or
b. be a bank teller who has a cat.

the people who recognize the fallacy would obviously pick A.
And these would then be recorded as negatives. Therefore, all the positive responses are the result of a cognitive bias. The difference between the results for atheists and religious people are therefore indicative that people who exhibit cognitive bias are more likely to exhibit it in favour of the religious and against atheists.

Dave
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:36 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
who else sees the glaring errors and assumptions in the quoted section of the post above?
You are still being evasive.

It is so typical of religious types that when their God happens to support a point that they are trying to make, then they fully support their God. However, when facts clearly show that their God is load of crap, then they will just as quickly hide from that God.

If there is actually is some sort of God, then I would expect that such a God would be rather ticked off at the fickle and fragile support that so many humans provide to it.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:40 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
And these would then be recorded as negatives. Therefore, all the positive responses are the result of a cognitive bias. The difference between the results for atheists and religious people are therefore indicative that people who exhibit cognitive bias are more likely to exhibit it in favour of the religious and against atheists.

Dave
Recorded as negatives? Nonsense.

The fact of the matter is that people who see a flaw in the question are counted, despite your earlier claim to the contrary. If anything, the fact that the question can be seen as fallacious more likely leads to under-counting the results that would otherwise have led to more points for option B.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:43 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
You are still being evasive.
Not surprised that that you do not see the flaw in the statement.

The assertion that atheists are immune to the first two stages of moral development is blatantly absurd. this should have been glaringly obvious.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:45 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Regardless, even if we grant the premise of the OP, it doesn't mean that atheists are immoral, only that people think that atheists are immoral.

We all know atheists have a PR problem. This is nothing new.
The OP premise is not supported by the study. Why grant TBG his unsupported premise?
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:46 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No they did not, for reasons that become clear if one were to read the actual paper that I linked.
I did and yes they did.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:49 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The researchers asked people if the animal torturing serial killer is likely to be an atheist or a theist.
.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I did and yes they did.
Then CERTAINLY you will have no trouble quoting the part where they did so, something that you have quite notably failed to do thus far.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:50 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh then you did see it discussed in the paper? It would save a bit if you mentioned that.

A priest who molests young boys for decades is more likely to be a priest who does not believe in God than a priest who does believe in God, that certainly makes sense from a number of perspectives, don't you agree?
Is this going to be your standard trick here: changing perceptions to facts? This thread is about the perception one group of people has for another, and such was this specific question. You have subtly changed a question of people's beliefs/ perceptions about priests who abuse children into a question of the actual reality of such priests and the extent of their belief in god/s. Why would you do that?
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:53 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Is this going to be your standard trick here: changing perceptions to facts? This thread is about the perception one group of people has for another, and such was this specific question. You have subtly changed a question of people's beliefs/ perceptions about priests who abuse children into a question of the actual reality of such priests and the extent of their belief in god/s. Why would you do that?
are you certain that is what I did? Perhaps you will wish to review the post to which I was replying and adjust your claim in accordance therewith.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:57 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thus one can easily see that we are hard wired by evolution to understand that atheism is immoral.
Wow, that is one of the most ridiculous bits of logical inference I've seen in a while, only narrowly-beaten by the deductions in the 60s Batman series, and the insane one in Black Dynamite.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:59 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
A priest who molests young boys for decades is more likely to be a priest who does not believe in God than a priest who does believe in God, that certainly makes sense from a number of perspectives, don't you agree?
No.

Let's drop perception, shall we? Do you have any evidence that priests who commit immoral acts are less religious than others?
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:01 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
No problem; the scroll bar is easy to find. Perceptions that atheists are less moral can either be founded or unfounded in fact, and your insistence - despite any content of the study that suggests anything of the sort - that they are not unfounded is functionally equivalent to a claim that atheists are objectively less moral than those with a religion.

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Uh oh. You're about to hear about Stalin again.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:03 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Who is more moral? The atheist who does it because it is the moral thing to do, or the theist who claims that it is what they want to do and only the imaginary deity stops them.
In fact, the friend who says this proves that his observance of those laws is not a moral observance but a pragmatic one: that he wouldn't follow the laws without the threat of punishment. He is admitting to not being a moral man.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:07 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Not surprised that that you do not see the flaw in the statement.

The assertion that atheists are immune to the first two stages of moral development is blatantly absurd. this should have been glaringly obvious.
You are still being evasive.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:08 AM   #73
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The study is focused on the likelihood that a serial killer is an atheist according to those polled. So why in this thread are we equating morality with not being a serial killer? That's a pretty low bar for morality in my opinion.

Say, you're a thief and a liar, and you molest people but you only killed one person? Okay welcome.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:08 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
who else sees the glaring errors and assumptions in the quoted section of the post above?
Speaking of glaring errors and assumptions:

Quote:
Thus one can easily see that we are hard wired by evolution to understand that atheism is immoral.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:09 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
You are still being evasive.
'k.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:20 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Thus one can easily see that we are hard wired by evolution to understand that atheism is immoral.
Yeah that's a good quote Argumemnon, isn't it?

I mean that's why toddlers are so pleasant to each other, it's only later in life we fight and lie and steal, after we have chosen our religion, or lack of it? /s

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Old 8th August 2017, 10:25 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
'k.
Typical evasion from 'The Big Dog'.

If these religious types actually gave two craps about their God, then one should expect them to at least say something in defense of their God. But instead, all that you get is evasion, evasion, evasion, and yet more evasion.
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On 16 MAY 2017 Paul Bethke discussed some of the sexual prohibitions of his god regarding man-to-man sex acts and woman-to-woman sex acts: "So not only lesbian acts but also anal sex.."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post11840580

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Old 8th August 2017, 10:26 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
Yeah that's a good quote Argumemnon, isn't it?

I mean that's why toddlers are so pleasant to each other, it's only later in life we fight and lie and steal, after we have chosen our religion? /s
perhaps you intended to quote another post, because your post as written makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

As far as the evolutionary advantages of religious faith, there is quite a range of literature, scholarly and otherwise, including that cited in the paper we are discussing. Here is something to help you get your feet wet:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=129528196
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:43 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Imhotep View Post
The study is focused on the likelihood that a serial killer is an atheist according to those polled. So why in this thread are we equating morality with not being a serial killer? That's a pretty low bar for morality in my opinion.

Say, you're a thief and a liar, and you molest people but you only killed one person? Okay welcome.
The few serial killers who weren't raised in or don't belong to a major religion generally have some weird beliefs of their own that effectively constitute a religion. They may be atheists, but I would consider them religious.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:58 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I have found that it makes sense to nip wrong statements in the bud just as soon as possible.

The paper's explanation of its methodology and their reasoning for it is set forth therein, love to see some "in depth" exchange about the actual methodology.
First, I don't see you supporting your interpretation of the methodology with anything of substance from the paper.

And second, their reasoning is seriously flawed because they too don't understand logic 101.

Title of the paper: "Global evidence of extreme intuitive moral prejudice against atheists". And in the abstract:
Quote:
people in mostóbut not alló of these countries viewed extreme moral violations as representative of atheists.
Their results do not show this at all. They show that "people in mostóbut not alló of these countries viewed extreme moral violations as representative of [including atheism] atheists."

And this from the abstract is especially not supported by the study:
Quote:
Entrenched moral suspicion of atheists suggests that religionís powerful influence on moral judgements persists, even among non-believers in secular societies.
Rather, it would seem to be purely the researchers' bias that is the conclusion they believe they supported.

I wonder what the peer reviewers had to say about that claim? It's no surprise theists believe one needs a god belief to behave morally. But most atheists are going to know moral behavior stems from nature/nurture processes not fear of gods.

Supposedly this thin disguise means something:
Quote:
In this task, participants read a description of a man who tortures animals as a child then as an adult exhibits escalating violence culminating with the murder and mutilation of five homeless people. Then, participants are judged whether it is more probable that the villain is (A) a teacher or (B) a teacher who either (manipulated between subjects) is a religious believer or does not believe in god(s). Thus, no individual participant is directly asked whether they think the perpetrator is or is not a believer.
Gee they asked some people if the perp believed in god and others if he was an atheist. Whoopee, they tested "anti-atheist bias versus anti-religious bias."

What they failed to notice was their missing logic:
Quote:
used to infer indirectly the degree to which a description of a serial murderer is intuitively seen as more representative of religious people or atheists, respectively.
That's just crap. Like I said, if A then B does not mean if B then A. The only thing they tested was whether people thought an animal torturing serial killer was an atheist. They did not measure what atheism represents.

They referred to a supplementary study that again only measured what people believe about serial killers, not what they believe about atheists:
Quote:
Supplementary Study S2 used the same extreme moral violation as our main analysis and found that people are more likely to assume intuitively that a perpetrator of moral evil is someone who disbelieves in God than someone who disbelieves in evolution, the accuracy of horoscopes, the safety of vaccines or the reality of global warming (all posterior probabilities between 0.956 and 0.9997).
All well and good if one is measuring what people believe about serial killers. Still says nothing about atheists' view of atheists' morality.


Here was the most interesting finding they report:
Quote:
Finally, it is possible that people may intuitively associate certain specific moral violations, such as child molestation, with religious individuals rather than with atheists. However, Supplementary Study S3 found that people intuitively assume that a priest who molests young boys for decades is more likely to be a priest who does not believe in God than a priest who does believe in God (posterior probability = 0.998).
That shows denial that god beliefs don't matter. One might rationalize that priest pedophiles fake being theists in order to find victims. I don't think it works that way personally.

I have seen some evidence that some gay priests (NOT PEDOPHILES) chose the priesthood in order to hide their lack of interest in marrying a woman where the social pressure to marry was significant.
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