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Old 8th August 2017, 05:51 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
The study doesn't resist analysis.



Why didn't they simply ask if a left-handed did it? That is measuring something sound for this kind of study.

"I tawt I taw a rilichius breadjudis" ... long research designed around that prejudice and worded around that prejudice. Conclusion: "I tit, I taw a rilichius breadjudis".



Wow! How representative! Mean global age 25.07 but no one younger than 16! 69% women? How high is male mortality rate in some countries? (That may be the reason some religions allow men to have four wives).

If they are so cheeky to publish the very proof of their candid incompetence, because you know, telling they used a Bayesian guarantees the GIGO principle isn't applicable here

__________________________________________________ ______

One of the most interesting things here is them polling about "Atheists" and "Theists". How did they ask? They polled in countries like India and China, with dozens of languages. In one country they could ask people of different languages using written language: what symbol did they choose for "Atheist" and "Theist"?

Are all languages involved neutral in the use of those terms? I mean, the word "opinion" in English includes meanings ranging from a judgement based on special knowledge and given by an expert to any unsubstantiated piss-poor belief disguised into a conclusion and held with confidence that TBD pours here just because he has an internet connection, a keyboard like and time to spare.

The same way, in the dozens of languages and dialects used across those 13 countries, are they sure the equivalent to "Atheist" has no other meaning like sinister (left-handed; related to the left) has?

A very concise response. Shame it'll be hand waved faster than superman trying to reverse time.
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Old 8th August 2017, 05:54 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
A very concise response. Shame it'll be hand waved faster than superman trying to reverse time.
I already replied, twice
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Old 8th August 2017, 05:56 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The Contributors are all clearly listed with contact information. why don't you express your comments to them directly?
That ridiculous suggestion can be translated into Dutch with the value "why don't you go elsewhere to write criticism that puts me (TBD) in an uncomfortable position"
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Old 8th August 2017, 06:02 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
A very concise response. Shame it'll be was hand waved faster than superman trying to reverse time.
FTFY. He dismissed all my comments on the topic in a much earlier post.

As it happens recurrently, TBD is basically in retreat since post ~#55. This thread now is and will be Napoleon or Hitler leaving the outskirts of Moscow and coming back home.
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Old 8th August 2017, 06:06 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
That ridiculous suggestion can be translated into Dutch with the value "why don't you go elsewhere to write criticism that puts me (TBD) in an uncomfortable position"
No, it was something that we did quite frequently in the 911 conspiracy forum.

Contact the author and bring the "sloppy" writing to their attention.

As it is, you'll forgive me for not being blown away by a list of typos.
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Old 8th August 2017, 06:09 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No, it was something that we did quite frequently in the 911 conspiracy forum.

Contact the author and bring the "sloppy" writing to their attention.

As it is, you'll forgive me for not being blown away by a list of typos.
Confirmed: It meant "why don't you go elsewhere to write criticism that puts me (TBD) in an uncomfortable position"
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Old 8th August 2017, 06:10 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
FTFY. He dismissed all my comments on the topic in a much earlier post.

As it happens recurrently, TBD is basically in retreat since post ~#55. This thread now is and will be Napoleon or Hitler leaving the outskirts of Moscow and coming back home.
I don't see his posts but I'm not surprised.
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Old 8th August 2017, 06:11 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
FTFY. He dismissed all my comments on the topic in a much earlier post.

As it happens recurrently, TBD is basically in retreat since post ~#55. This thread now is and will be Napoleon or Hitler leaving the outskirts of Moscow and coming back home.
Actually I seem to recall pointing out that translations were indeed provided... hmmm, just one of those "retreat" things I guess?

I did not think that analysis like:

Quote:
"I tawt I taw a rilichius breadjudis" ... long research designed around that prejudice and worded around that prejudice. Conclusion: "I tit, I taw a rilichius breadjudis".
merited a response.
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Old 8th August 2017, 06:33 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
I don't see his posts but I'm not surprised.
You should take a look to them. It all quickly became kicking the ball out of the playing field, like footballers do when there's a risk of goal and the penalty of corner kick seems to be the lesser problem.

The diversion now is the "misspelling" leitmotif. And there are others diversions also in play, one for each arguer.

TBD no longer addresses the research itself. He never addressed its methodology because he doesn't understand of such matters, that's why he couldn't answer the simple question about the sample method used in each 13 polls which is all there in plain sight. He won't even swear to god or at least assert having read the research prior to start this thread (it's quite obvious he didn't). He has only left to insist in the conclusions he imagined and preferred to believe, and to diminish the post of others so he can avoid giving real replies.
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Old 8th August 2017, 07:04 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Excellent work! It all seems casual and relaxed, like those pre-questionnaires that are made just to interview a bad sample made of few people (students in the building, for instance) just to check for mistakes, the grammatical ones and spelling being the least important to be checked. In one local study the sample was paid with "candies", also pointing to a jocular approach which is typical for a new group forming and the first steps in preparing a serious research.
That "payment" is also a worrying thing. Really, pay people for just answering one question? I note the Dutch group got paid with "credits". Hmm, one credit equals 40 hours of study. The further data looks weird. First of all, no sample size, and then the average age is 19.5 years with a standard deviation of 2.14, among a student population. Belief (on a scale 0-100) was average 21.2 with SD 29.9. If I look at all those standard deviations in the supplementary information, it looks very much like the researchers don't know what a standard deviation is.

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
How such work, not even half-baked, made its way to a public part of nature.com, it speaks badly about what they have become ... or was is published on April 1st?
It looks all very shoddy indeed.
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Old 8th August 2017, 07:14 PM   #131
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Just looking at the lead author's comments on twitter, seems quite pleased with the article and getting rave reviews from other atheists.

Curious about the reactions here, tho.
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Old 8th August 2017, 07:31 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Just looking at the lead author's comments on twitter, seems quite pleased with the article and getting rave reviews from other atheists.

Curious about the reactions here, tho.
I bet.
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Old 8th August 2017, 07:39 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
I don't see his posts but I'm not surprised.
Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
I bet.
Well we'll take your word for it.
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Old 8th August 2017, 07:43 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I am not sure that folks are just going to take your word for it, can you articulate an objection?
The old leading question tactic:

"What kind of sick monster would do this?"
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Old 8th August 2017, 07:49 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The old leading question tactic:

"What kind of sick monster would do this?"
I don't recall seeing that question. Perhaps you can explain what you mean a bit further?
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Old 9th August 2017, 01:05 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
This thread now is and will be Napoleon or Hitler leaving the outskirts of Moscow and coming back home.
...and holding a victory parade when he gets there.

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Old 9th August 2017, 02:53 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Just looking at the lead author's comments on twitter, seems quite pleased with the article and getting rave reviews from other atheists.

Curious about the reactions here, tho.


Very important thing to add to the discussion: how one of the authors feels as he expressed it in Twitter!

Don't worry. Nobody is gonna check that "fact".

Look, TBD, it's pretty obvious now that you are trying to derail your own thread any time it delves into the sloppiness of the paper you introduced here. But I don't think you're doing that just because you lack what's needed to discussed the methodology in papers like that. I'm certain the reason of your overreaction is that you started this thread thinking the paper implied a criticism on Atheists (I think the bit where you tell that even Atheists thought that the evil doer was an Atheist shows what make you swallow it hook, line and sinker) when in fact the paper only says that religious people are full of prejudices, something that nobody disagrees about here.

Since that moment you're making a fuss of anything. How did I realize about that? Either I consulted the Ouija board all non-Theist have together with a black cat and a broom, or you have the subtleness of an elephant walking the aisles in a glass shop. Take your pick.

I bet you want this thread to go away, but the paper you linked is so rich in BS that it deserves attention, so I've decided to start the serious thread I mentioned above, which I'll link here in 24 hours or so. It's a serious endeavour, not the couldn't-care-less kind of thread we're used in Religion, 911, Trump's or Amanda Knox's.

Speaking of endeavours and seriousness:


Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post

As it is, you'll forgive me for not being blown away by a list of typos.
Let me add to the errata:

Where it says "I tawt I taw a rilichius breadjudis" it should read "I tawt I taw a puddy rilichius breadjudis".
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Old 9th August 2017, 03:04 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I have found that it makes sense to nip wrong statements in the bud just as soon as possible...
So can we nip the thread's title which says 'atheists thought immoral' when the study actually showed 'immoral thought atheist'?

I'm fairly sanguine about both the main conclusion and the supplementary one about abusing priests being assumed not to really believe. All that tells us is that people tend to think that a profoundly immoral person is more likely not to hold a belief in divine retribution for their actions.

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Old 9th August 2017, 03:19 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
... Everyone who gives an answer not subject to cognitive bias states that the serial killer is more likely to be a teacher, as this is in fact the only logically possible answer. Everyone who gives either of the other answers, according to group, is therefore exhibiting cognitive bias.
Just for clarity, is what you're saying here that the set of "teachers" is inevitably larger than the set of "teachers with characteristic X" (or not-X) therefore to assume the evil-doer is a member of either smaller set shows bias?
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Old 9th August 2017, 03:27 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The OP premise is not supported by the study. Why grant TBG his unsupported premise?
To make a rhetorical point.
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Old 9th August 2017, 03:47 AM   #141
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Old 9th August 2017, 03:57 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Just for clarity, is what you're saying here that the set of "teachers" is inevitably larger than the set of "teachers with characteristic X" (or not-X) therefore to assume the evil-doer is a member of either smaller set shows bias?
Essentially, yes; it's a logical fallacy to say that anyone is more likely to possess two attributes together than to possess at least one of those two attributes, a cognitive bias known as the Conjunction Fallacy.

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Old 9th August 2017, 04:01 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Just for clarity, is what you're saying here that the set of "teachers" is inevitably larger than the set of "teachers with characteristic X" (or not-X) therefore to assume the evil-doer is a member of either smaller set shows bias?
I think it's slightly subtler than that, in that, while it's logically possible for the two sets to be the same size, that's not a given option. Therefore of the two options actually presented, the possible answer is more likely than the impossible answer.
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Old 9th August 2017, 04:14 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
... a cognitive bias known as the Conjunction Fallacy.
quoted just to add

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunction_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repres...ness_heuristic
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Old 9th August 2017, 04:46 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Truth be told, I have spent virtually all my time explaining basic facts to people who clearly don't understand the paper.
Here's a direct quote from the paper that may help with that:

Quote:
We developed a measure to assess extreme anti-atheist prejudice by using a simple experimental design that targets intuitive biases.
The entire aim of the paper was to study prejudicial bias against atheists, and the methodology is specifically designed to do so. To claim, therefore, that the conclusion of prejudicial bias is inaccurate is to reject the paper in its entirety on the basis of flawed methodology; and to claim that the conclusion of prejudicial bias is an interpretation added after the fact by the authors - in fact, to claim that

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
the primary flaw in the linked paper is to ascribe the conclusion to prejudice
when the entire methodology is designed to investigate prejudice - shows a clear and obvious misunderstanding of the paper.

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Old 9th August 2017, 04:56 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Essentially, yes; it's a logical fallacy to say that anyone is more likely to possess two attributes together than to possess at least one of those two attributes, a cognitive bias known as the Conjunction Fallacy.

Dave
I've come across this in myself a few times and found it can be really hard to drop the "intuitive" answer regardless of knowing it was wrong.

Interesting way the paper uses this fallacy to explore prejudice.
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Old 9th August 2017, 05:41 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I've come across this in myself a few times and found it can be really hard to drop the "intuitive" answer regardless of knowing it was wrong.

Interesting way the paper uses this fallacy to explore prejudice.
I think a lot of the effect comes from how we use language in common speech as opposed to in logic puzzles. We tend to assume mutually exclusive options when given a list in casual conversation.

Try this one.

--
You are a tightrope-walker carefully balanced on a thin wire high above Niagara Falls. A slight breeze blows. All your preparations have been focused on keeping you stable and not plunging to your death. Are you more likely to be holding

a) a long pole that extends to the left
b) a long pole that extends to the left and right
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Old 9th August 2017, 06:15 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I've come across this in myself a few times and found it can be really hard to drop the "intuitive" answer regardless of knowing it was wrong.

Interesting way the paper uses this fallacy to explore prejudice.
of course it is because humans are problem solvers, it was not a logic test.

as such, when presented with something like:

Linda is a nice person, is it more likely that

A. Linda is a teacher or

B. Linda is a teacher that owns a cat.

It is natural to solve the apparent inconsistency by assuming that option A is saying that Linda is a teacher that does not own a cat. Otherwise it renders the entire exercise pointless.
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Old 9th August 2017, 06:16 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
I think a lot of the effect comes from how we use language in common speech as opposed to in logic puzzles. We tend to assume mutually exclusive options when given a list in casual conversation.

Try this one.

--
You are a tightrope-walker carefully balanced on a thin wire high above Niagara Falls. A slight breeze blows. All your preparations have been focused on keeping you stable and not plunging to your death. Are you more likely to be holding

a) a long pole that extends to the left
b) a long pole that extends to the left and right
well said, and in line with what I also explained!
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Old 9th August 2017, 06:50 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
So can we nip the thread's title which says 'atheists thought immoral' when the study actually showed 'immoral thought atheist'?
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
This was painful
I thought it rather concise.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:39 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
To make a rhetorical point.
I thought it was a bit ironic that SG declared that "The OP premise is not supported by the study" based on nothing.

Of course, it was expertly demonstrated that the op was indeed supported by the premise.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:43 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I thought it was a bit ironic that SG declared that "The OP premise is not supported by the study" based on nothing.

Of course, it was expertly demonstrated that the op was indeed supported by the premise.
What means that the research was focused in showing prejudices like yours exist.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:52 AM   #153
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Simple observation shows that religion has nothing to do with morality.

Society changes it's moral outlook then, maybe 25-50 years later, the various religious institutions catch up.


If religion were the font of any morality at all, it'd be the other way around.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:56 AM   #154
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There is a No True Scotsman angle to this study as well that is bothering.

If I were a Scotsman and I read a story about a bad person, my gut reaction would be label that person not a Scotsman. Even if I weren't a Scotsman, but had spent time around Scotsmen and found them generally agreeable, I would likely say the bad person was not a True Scotsman.

Much the way Catholics say the Pedo-Priests are not true Catholics. On that I could see myself agreeing. Not that the Peso-priest is really an Atheist, but it is hard to see how they square up a belief in a loving yet vengeful God with their horrible actions. The truth is they have no problem with such mental gymnastics, but for me it is hard to grasp.

Anyway, "fisherman finds fish" is about as interesting as this study.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:59 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
There is a No True Scotsman angle to this study as well that is bothering.

If I were a Scotsman and I read a story about a bad person, my gut reaction would be label that person not a Scotsman. Even if I weren't a Scotsman, but had spent time around Scotsmen and found them generally agreeable, I would likely say the bad person was not a True Scotsman.

Much the way Catholics say the Pedo-Priests are not true Catholics. On that I could see myself agreeing. Not that the Peso-priest is really an Atheist, but it is hard to see how they square up a belief in a loving yet vengeful God with their horrible actions. The truth is they have no problem with such mental gymnastics, but for me it is hard to grasp.

Anyway, "fisherman finds fish" is about as interesting as this study.
You may wish to address the fact that the authors also found that atheists think atheists are immoral.

And please don't be seduced by certain unfortunate posts suggesting that the study does not say that because there is absolutely no question that it does.
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Old 9th August 2017, 08:34 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You may wish to address the fact that the authors also found that atheists think atheists are immoral.

And please don't be seduced by certain unfortunate posts suggesting that the study does not say that because there is absolutely no question that it does.
No, it really doesn't.

It says that the authors found that even atheists tended to think the immoral person would be atheist. Which is not the same thing as thinking an atheist person would be immoral.
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Old 9th August 2017, 08:49 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
No, it really doesn't.

It says that the authors found that even atheists tended to think the immoral person would be atheist. Which is not the same thing as thinking an atheist person would be immoral.
Oh well, that seems to be a distinction without a substantive difference, but I am a get-along guy, and as such;

Cheerfully Conceded!
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Old 9th August 2017, 08:56 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh well, that seems to be a distinction without a substantive difference
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Old 9th August 2017, 08:59 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh well, that seems to be a distinction without a substantive difference, but I am a get-along guy, and as such;

Cheerfully Conceded!
You're right it is.
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Old 9th August 2017, 09:05 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
dl:
In your haste to post a "laughing dog" emoji (which, again, really well played) I see that you have left out part of my post:

Quote:
Oh well, that seems to be a distinction without a substantive difference, but I am a get-along guy, and as such;

Cheerfully Conceded!
I hilighted the part you left out.

I also modified your laughing dog emoji because I find it distracting (and insipid) to people who actually are interested in discussing the thread subject.
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