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Tags atheism , atheists , immorality , morality

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Old 9th August 2017, 09:30 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Not that the Peso-priest is really an Atheist
Few Mexicans are!

Quote:
but it is hard to see how they square up a belief in a loving yet vengeful God with their horrible actions.
Maybe they prefer the old testament god.
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Old 9th August 2017, 11:23 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You may wish to address the fact that the authors also found that atheists think atheists are immoral.
Did you not read my post? Or were you replying to another?
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Old 9th August 2017, 11:25 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post

I also modified your laughing dog emoji because I find it distracting (and insipid) to people who actually are interested in discussing the thread subject.
Apologies, I assumed that the humour in your posts was intentional, and that you'd appreciate signs that others had got the joke. Perhaps I was mistaken?
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Old 9th August 2017, 11:29 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Did you not read my post? Or were you replying to another?
Yes, quite closely in fact.
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Old 9th August 2017, 11:33 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yes, quite closely in fact.
Did you miss this sentence?
Even if I weren't a Scotsman, but had spent time around Scotsmen and found them generally agreeable, I would likely say the bad person was not a True Scotsman.
If I may make it a bit more clear: replace "Scotsman" with "believer". Did anyone else miss this analogy so completely?
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Old 9th August 2017, 12:04 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Did you miss this sentence?
Even if I weren't a Scotsman, but had spent time around Scotsmen and found them generally agreeable, I would likely say the bad person was not a True Scotsman.
If I may make it a bit more clear: replace "Scotsman" with "believer". Did anyone else miss this analogy so completely?
The 'analogy' you are missing is this one;

If I were a Scotsman and I read a story about a bad person, my gut reaction would be label that person a Scotsman.
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Old 9th August 2017, 12:20 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The 'analogy' you are missing is this one;

If I were a Scotsman and I read a story about a bad person, my gut reaction would be label that person a Scotsman.
I feel like I even dressed this in the post:
Much the way Catholics say the Pedo-Priests are not true Catholics. On that I could see myself agreeing. Not that the Pedo-priest is really an Atheist, but it is hard to see how they square up a belief in a loving yet vengeful God with their horrible actions.
And now you have flipped the labels thus exposing a complete lack of understanding of how the No True Scotsman Fallacy works. It is based on a relationship, a membership in a group having some form of bonding or kinship. One must first claim to be a part of that group before being assertively pushed out based on later behavior.

Just as not-stamp-collecting has never been something you and I have bonded over, I don't feel any real kinship to others because of their belief or lack thereof. I fell kinship for other things, but not a lack a belief. In fact, I have more of a kinship with Catholics, having gone to Catholic school, and Anglicans, having grown up in an Episcopalian home, than I do with any random non-believer or Atheist. There is no shared experience other than rolling eyes at the overt religiosity in the local area.

Further, having a good understanding of those religions I would posit that any mass murderer may profess religion and display religiosity, but I have hard time believing they are a true believer. My gut reaction would be to say they do not truly believe in a loving god.

But that may depend not the candy being offered.
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Old 9th August 2017, 12:34 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post

And now you have flipped the labels thus exposing a complete lack of understanding of how the No True Scotsman Fallacy works.
Rubs temples....

Perhaps I have failed to make myself sufficiently clear.....

I am saying your no true scotsman fallacy analogy does. not. fit. for the reasons i have already explained.

the problem is not with my "understanding" of the fallacy it is with your application of that fallacy here.
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Old 9th August 2017, 01:17 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well that is what the data shows with respect to the actual molesting priests, that they were believed more likely to be priests who had rejected God and had become atheists
.... Evidence?
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Old 9th August 2017, 01:20 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Rubs temples....

Perhaps I have failed to make myself sufficiently clear.....
Oh yes, that is probably the issue. That is where I would retreat to at this point, too.
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Old 9th August 2017, 01:21 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
.... Evidence?
the paper I linked earlier??
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Old 9th August 2017, 01:22 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Rubs temples....

Perhaps I have failed to make myself sufficiently clear.....

I am saying your no true scotsman fallacy analogy does. not. fit. for the reasons i have already explained.

the problem is not with my "understanding" of the fallacy it is with your application of that fallacy here.
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Oh yes, that is probably the issue. That is where I would retreat to at this point, too.
I hilighted the part inexplicably cut from my earlier post for the inconvenience and edification of the readers.
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Old 9th August 2017, 01:27 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I hilighted the part inexplicably cut from my earlier post for the inconvenience and edification of the readers.
I assumed most astute readers could scroll. But let's see if I can tease out your position. You previously wrote:
If I were a Scotsman and I read a story about a bad person, my gut reaction would be label that person a Scotsman.
Please elaborate on what you meant by this.
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Old 9th August 2017, 02:13 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You may wish to address the fact that the authors also found that atheists think atheists are immoral.

And please don't be seduced by certain unfortunate posts suggesting that the study does not say that because there is absolutely no question that it does.
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I assumed most astute readers could scroll. But let's see if I can tease out your position. You previously wrote:
If I were a Scotsman and I read a story about a bad person, my gut reaction would be label that person a Scotsman.
Please elaborate on what you meant by this.
Nothing to tease, I explained it clearly in my above quoted post.
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Old 9th August 2017, 02:23 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Nothing to tease, I explained it clearly in my above quoted post.
Great, so you can refer back to my previous post that addresses this:
The True Scotsman Fallacy is based on a relationship, a membership in a group having some form of bonding or kinship. One must first claim to be a part of that group before being assertively pushed out based on later behavior.

Just as not-stamp-collecting has never been something you and I have bonded over, I don't feel any real kinship to others because of their belief or lack thereof. I fell kinship for other things, but not a lack a belief. In fact, I have more of a kinship with Catholics, having gone to Catholic school, and Anglicans, having grown up in an Episcopalian home, than I do with any random non-believer or Atheist. There is no shared experience other than rolling eyes at the overt religiosity in the local area.
There can't be a No True Non-Scotsman Fallacy. In formal terms: there is no universal generalization for people who don't collect stamps, or don't have Scottish heritage, or don't hold god beliefs.
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Old 9th August 2017, 02:34 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I assumed most astute readers could scroll. But let's see if I can tease out your position. You previously wrote:
If I were a Scotsman and I read a story about a bad person, my gut reaction would be label that person a Scotsman.
Please elaborate on what you meant by this.

I was puzzled by this also but thought it was The Big Dog tripping over his tongue. Perhaps the meaning is:

"Knowing I was a bad person and also a Scotsman and I read a story about another bad person, my gut reaction would be to label that person a Scotsman also, because he was bad like me."
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Old 9th August 2017, 02:37 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
.... Evidence?
That gave me a good chuckle, Good luck with that.
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Old 9th August 2017, 02:46 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Great, so you can refer back to my previous post that addresses this:
The True Scotsman Fallacy is based on a relationship, a membership in a group having some form of bonding or kinship. One must first claim to be a part of that group before being assertively pushed out based on later behavior.

Just as not-stamp-collecting has never been something you and I have bonded over, I don't feel any real kinship to others because of their belief or lack thereof. I fell kinship for other things, but not a lack a belief. In fact, I have more of a kinship with Catholics, having gone to Catholic school, and Anglicans, having grown up in an Episcopalian home, than I do with any random non-believer or Atheist. There is no shared experience other than rolling eyes at the overt religiosity in the local area.
There can't be a No True Non-Scotsman Fallacy. In formal terms: there is no universal generalization for people who don't collect stamps, or don't have Scottish heritage, or don't hold god beliefs.
It is fine, you are enamored with your incredibly, deeply flawed analogy.

I'll let the study authors know that this:

Quote:
Notably, anti-atheist prejudice was even evident among atheist participants around the world.
Hey that is a No True Non-Scotsman Fallacy! rolls eyes.....

eta; by the way, have you ever seen a worse argument than comparing atheism to people who don't collect stamps? Unless there are dozens of well established "not collecting stamps" organizations like American Atheists that I ain't heard about.
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Old 9th August 2017, 02:49 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
That gave me a good chuckle, Good luck with that.
yeah, he might have to read the paper I linked where that was prominently discussed!

Good luck with that!

(that gave me a good chuckle)
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Old 9th August 2017, 03:37 PM   #180
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Having read the article originally linked by The Big Dog and some of the posts here I am inclined to agree, to a limited degree, with The Big Dogs assessment as I understand it. I think his gleeful celebration of this seemingly embarrassing mindset of some atheists is a bit overdone however.

I am prepared to admit the possibility some atheists may be inclined to think other atheists may be more capable of doing bad things than theists. The reason being that theists are constrained by the thought of punishment by a god, and also belief in the fundamental evil of man, which is a hangover from religious teaching.

This should come as no surprise I think when you look at the way laws are enforced in our societies. It's all about punishment for transgressions because we believe that's the best way to control behaviour. The more chances that punishment will be handed out, the better the chance of maintaining order.

Some of us atheists have moved beyond the notion that man is essentially evil however, so the idea that we will by default do the bad things is lost. I count myself among the latter although I do enjoy a roast baby at times.
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Old 9th August 2017, 04:16 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Having read the article originally linked by The Big Dog and some of the posts here I am inclined to agree, to a limited degree, with The Big Dogs assessment as I understand it. I think his gleeful celebration of this seemingly embarrassing mindset of some atheists is a bit overdone however.

I am prepared to admit the possibility some atheists may be inclined to think other atheists may be more capable of doing bad things than theists. The reason being that theists are constrained by the thought of punishment by a god, and also belief in the fundamental evil of man, which is a hangover from religious teaching.
How many are this "some" you refer to? One, ten, .00001%?

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
This should come as no surprise I think when you look at the way laws are enforced in our societies. It's all about punishment for transgressions because we believe that's the best way to control behaviour. The more chances that punishment will be handed out, the better the chance of maintaining order.
This is another assertion you may find lacking in evidence. For example, compare murders per capita by state to numbers of executions per capita per state and you don't see a correlation.
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Old 9th August 2017, 05:20 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
eta; by the way, have you ever seen a worse argument than comparing atheism to people who don't collect stamps? Unless there are dozens of well established "not collecting stamps" organizations like American Atheists that I ain't heard about.
One organization does not make a dozen. But you conveniently forget that, in the USA, atheism is a stigma. Try telling your neighbors that you're an atheist, and watch the reaction. Try running for office and saying out loud that you're atheist. Have you ever heard, e.g., Bernie say he's an atheist? He handily tiptoed around the issue, when he was asked about his beliefs.

In countries where godbotherers are a minority, e.g., the Netherlands or the Czech Republic, you'll search in vain for atheist societies, or even in countries like the UK where religion is just not a public issue.
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Old 9th August 2017, 05:40 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Further, having a good understanding of those religions I would posit that any mass murderer may profess religion and display religiosity, but I have hard time believing they are a true believer. My gut reaction would be to say they do not truly believe in a loving god.
Why do you think Satan was invented? It's the perfect 'out' for a true-believer; it's not god that made me do it, it was satan!

Or, like many, they murder and rape because "god told me to." Or, "god has blessed me and not these others, so it doesn't matter if I kill them."

I mean, there are tons of ways for one to easily imagine that a true believer would do horrible things. "God" is made up anyway, so why wouldn't people also make up reasons for doing the things they do that happen to fit in to their concept of their made up "god"?
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Old 9th August 2017, 05:58 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How many are this "some" you refer to? One, ten, .00001%?

.
Say, a bunch of questions are piling up up for you, including one about why you misrepresented what the actual paper showed.

I'd be happy to link the actual on topic questions, or you can post that off topic nonsense again, because of course.
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Old 9th August 2017, 06:02 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
One organization does not make a dozen. But you conveniently forget that, in the USA, atheism is a stigma. Try telling your neighbors that you're an atheist, and watch the reaction. Try running for office and saying out loud that you're atheist. Have you ever heard, e.g., Bernie say he's an atheist? He handily tiptoed around the issue, when he was asked about his beliefs.

In countries where godbotherers are a minority, e.g., the Netherlands or the Czech Republic, you'll search in vain for atheist societies, or even in countries like the UK where religion is just not a public issue.
You want a dozen?

'k.

http://stason.org/TULARC/religion/at...nizations.html

Your post, of course, did in no way whatsoever contradict what I wrote.

Unless you have 70 "not collecting stamps" organizations in the Netherlands like I just dropped? Or maybe one?
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Old 9th August 2017, 06:24 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You want a dozen?

'k.

http://stason.org/TULARC/religion/at...nizations.html

Your post, of course, did in no way whatsoever contradict what I wrote.

Unless you have 70 "not collecting stamps" organizations in the Netherlands like I just dropped? Or maybe one?
What do you think that link you posted says?
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Old 9th August 2017, 06:29 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
What do you think that link you posted says?
70 atheist organizations in the netherlands.

I was led to believe that atheists in the netherlands have as many organizations as people who don't collect stamps.
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Old 9th August 2017, 06:36 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
70 atheist organizations in the netherlands.

I was led to believe that atheists in the netherlands have as many organizations as people who don't collect stamps.
I was hoping you weren't going to say that. It does not show 70 atheist orgs in the Netherlands.. That was Item number 70 of whatever they were listing. It showed 1 listing for the Netherlands. Item #71 was Luxemburg, that also had 1 listing.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:03 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How many are this "some" you refer to? One, ten, .00001%?
No I couldn't put a figure on it and I did say I am prepared to admit the possibility.

Quote:
This is another assertion you may find lacking in evidence. For example, compare murders per capita by state to numbers of executions per capita per state and you don't see a correlation.

Just to be clear I am not saying worse penalties or the greater chance of being penalised does work, just there is a popular perception that it does. Personally I believe in rehabilitation rather than punishment and the lower rates of recidivism in countries like Sweden who adopt this approach gives weight to this. This is not the thread to dwell on this however.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:16 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
I was hoping you weren't going to say that. It does not show 70 atheist orgs in the Netherlands.. That was Item number 70 of whatever they were listing. It showed 1 listing for the Netherlands. Item #71 was Luxemburg, that also had 1 listing.


seriously?

lolz!!

not gonna kid you, I was poking a bit of fun at the concept that "not collecting stamps" is anything other than an insipid analogy.
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Old 9th August 2017, 08:41 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
One organization does not make a dozen. But you conveniently forget that, in the USA, atheism is a stigma. Try telling your neighbors that you're an atheist, and watch the reaction. Try running for office and saying out loud that you're atheist. Have you ever heard, e.g., Bernie say he's an atheist? He handily tiptoed around the issue, when he was asked about his beliefs.

In countries where godbotherers are a minority, e.g., the Netherlands or the Czech Republic, you'll search in vain for atheist societies, or even in countries like the UK where religion is just not a public issue.
It doesn't matter; this is the exact same "argument" he made in the Lenin thread. It's utterly useless to try and engage on this particular topic.
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Old 9th August 2017, 09:18 PM   #192
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
It doesn't matter; this is the exact same "argument" he made in the Lenin thread. It's utterly useless to try and engage on this particular topic.
'K.

Newsflash, folks, all those atheist organizations that do things like buy bus ads, or file suit, or exist?

They don't exist.

Freedom from religion foundation? That will do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._organizations

Give it up folks, it is "useless" to engage, you will all have to disband.
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Old 9th August 2017, 11:46 PM   #193
Aepervius
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
'K.

Newsflash, folks, all those atheist organizations that do things like buy bus ads, or file suit, or exist?

They don't exist.

Freedom from religion foundation? That will do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._organizations

Give it up folks, it is "useless" to engage, you will all have to disband.
Have you READ your own link ? It describes a lot of US organisation, and for many country, barely 1. There is 1/4 of the population in germany compared to the US, yet from all organisation listed 1 maybe 2 at the outset can be qualified as really about atheism, the other being about ex-mulsim and humanism for example.

ETA: And yes the comparison to not-being-scottman is valid. You are pretty much the only one rejecting it. I can't imagine why .

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Old 10th August 2017, 02:28 AM   #194
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Bob thinks that Banana Eaters are subject to prejudice!

Bob conducts study to see if people think mass murderers are more likely to be Banana Eaters. His study finds that even Banana Eaters think that they are bad! Prejudice proved!

Dennis sees study and thinks this is evidence that Banana Eaters really are mass murderers. Dennis starts a thread.
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Old 10th August 2017, 02:56 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh well, that seems to be a distinction without a substantive difference, but I am a get-along guy, and as such;

Cheerfully Conceded!
Thanks. So we're agreed the study doesn't show atheists think atheists are immoral.

What we have is a study showing a proportion of people make a logical error by choosing to say a wicked person was more likely to be a teacher with <belief X> than he was to be a teacher at all, and the size of that group of people was smaller when X was religious belief than when X was atheism.

It doesn't surprise me. Whatever our own religious belief or lack thereof, we tend to assume other people's religious belief includes a belief in judgement and the punishment of wrongdoing, and we also tend to assume fear of punishment is a deterrent, whether or not that's the case.

That appears to me to be an entirely reasonable explanation for fewer people making the logically wrong choice when asked if the person was religious. It tells us what people think about how other people's belief might affect their behaviour.

It doesn't tell us anyone thinks atheists are bad people (though presumably there are some who do think that). It only tells us people tend to think a thoroughly bad person who acts out their evil intentions might have been less likely to do so if they were restrained by a religious belief.

Last edited by Jack by the hedge; 10th August 2017 at 02:59 AM.
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:27 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You want a dozen?

'k.

http://stason.org/TULARC/religion/at...nizations.html

Your post, of course, did in no way whatsoever contradict what I wrote.

Unless you have 70 "not collecting stamps" organizations in the Netherlands like I just dropped? Or maybe one?
Apart from what John Jones already took you on for - that you couldn't even properly interpret the meaning of that number '70' - kudos for finding one that vaguely applies. Have you also looked a bit further? "De Vrije Gedachte" was founded in 1856, when people still viewed Catholics with suspicion and railed against the reinstatement of the episcopal hierarchy. The don't even have the word "atheist" in their articles of association. They wanted to in 1921, but at the time, those articles required royal assent and the PM refused that, which even led to parliamentary debate. Now, they have about 500 members, on a population of 17 million.

And from their own words:
Quote:
The Dutch freethinkers association

The Dutch freethinkers association De Vrije Gedachte (The Free Thought) was founded in 1856. It is committed to promoting atheist humanism. Freethinkers examine reality through rational thought, without dogmatic or ideological prejudices. Freethinkers reject any conception of God. Therefore, De Vrije Gedachte consideres itself atheistic. The human individual is a central issue to De Vrije Gedachte. In that sense it is humanistic.


The Free Thought

1. Stands for strict separation of church and state;
2. Seeks to safeguard education and teaching from indoctrination;
3. Will Always promote a critical, inquiring and scientific attitude;
4. Will debunk religion, pseudo – science and other delusions;
5. Stands for freedom of expression;
6. Respects the dignity of man as a creature who’s existence is single and finite;
7. Recognizes full self-determination of the human being;
8. Respects other living beings and the environment.
it's clear that it's not so much atheism they're promoting, but humanist and skeptic thought.

But as a kid, I thoroughly enjoyed hearing its former chairman, Anton Constandse, who was a regular guest in radio programmes.
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:31 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Bob thinks that Banana Eaters are subject to prejudice!

Bob conducts study to see if people think mass murderers are more likely to be Banana Eaters. His study finds that even Banana Eaters think that they are bad! Prejudice proved!

Dennis sees study and thinks this is evidence that Banana Eaters really are mass murderers. Dennis starts a thread.
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:58 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
'K.

Newsflash, folks, all those atheist organizations that do things like buy bus ads, or file suit, or exist?

They don't exist.

Freedom from religion foundation? That will do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List..._organizations

Give it up folks, it is "useless" to engage, you will all have to disband.
You forgot to mention that in the Netherlands, we even have a University for Humanistic Studies, which grew out of a training by Humanistisch Verbond for humanist army chaplains.

Really, how far do you have to move those goal posts to find "atheist" organizations?
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:08 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Have you READ your own link ? It describes a lot of US organisation, and for many country, barely 1. There is 1/4 of the population in germany compared to the US, yet from all organisation listed 1 maybe 2 at the outset can be qualified as really about atheism, the other being about ex-mulsim and humanism for example.

ETA: And yes the comparison to not-being-scottman is valid. You are pretty much the only one rejecting it. I can't imagine why .
yes, I have indeed read my links! Look at all those atheists organizations spread throughout the world!

And nary a "not collecting stamps" group to be found.

By the way, there are several other glaring problems with that silly analogy, but I get that I will be the only pointing those out... I can't imagine why....
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:11 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Thanks. So we're agreed the study doesn't show atheists think atheists are immoral.

What we have is a study showing a proportion of people make a logical error by choosing to say a wicked person was more likely to be a teacher with <belief X> than he was to be a teacher at all, and the size of that group of people was smaller when X was religious belief than when X was atheism.

It doesn't surprise me. Whatever our own religious belief or lack thereof, we tend to assume other people's religious belief includes a belief in judgement and the punishment of wrongdoing, and we also tend to assume fear of punishment is a deterrent, whether or not that's the case.

That appears to me to be an entirely reasonable explanation for fewer people making the logically wrong choice when asked if the person was religious. It tells us what people think about how other people's belief might affect their behaviour.

It doesn't tell us anyone thinks atheists are bad people (though presumably there are some who do think that). It only tells us people tend to think a thoroughly bad person who acts out their evil intentions might have been less likely to do so if they were restrained by a religious belief.
I have already explained that it was not a logic test.

Further, now we are taking the next step, why do people have that belief? Id it because it is true? Is it because we instinctively recognize the superiority of the religious faith in the development of society?

Other reasons?
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