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Tags atheism , atheists , immorality , morality

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Old 10th August 2017, 03:43 PM   #241
Dr. Keith
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Cheerfully indeed, in fact that sig gives me the chuckles:

scene:

Hey we got TBD to face the music and put it in his sig!
reads sig...
Awwww....

Fin

This Imaginationed scene brought to you by the Number One and the Letter Queue.
Going to correct the thread title next?
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:58 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Going to correct the thread title next?
Not a chance.
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:42 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Going to correct the thread title next?
Nothing at all to correct, however, if you feel aggrieved and can convince the editors of the article linked in the op that their headline is problematic, and they change it, I will thereafter go to the mat to have the headline changed.

Godspeed.
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:20 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Cheerfully indeed, in fact that sig gives me the chuckles:

scene:

Hey we got TBD to face the music and put it in his sig!
reads sig...
Awwww....

Fin

This Imaginationed scene brought to you by the Number One and the Letter Queue.
Your recent arguments have been exemplary failures. Better luck next time. You and Jabba ought to get together. The two of you couldn't possibly come up with worse logical positions than what you already have done.

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Old 10th August 2017, 07:30 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Your recent arguments have been exemplary failures. Better luck next time. You and Jabba ought to get together. The two of you couldn't possibly come up with worse logical positions than what you already have done.

Oh, I think he accomplished exactly what he set out to do.
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:31 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Your recent arguments have been exemplary failures. Better luck next time. You and Jabba ought to get together. The two of you couldn't possibly come up with worse logical positions than what you already have done.
I assume that the smiley at the end means you are joking, because if not?

'K.
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:13 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I assume that the smiley at the end means you are joking, because if not?

'K.
Take it any way you wish.
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:16 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Oh, I think he accomplished exactly what he set out to do.
I think you know better than that.
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Old 10th August 2017, 09:12 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
I think you know better than that.
I think I'm fairly right here. He set out to get reactions and he did, He knew the link had nothing to do with the title and was shown that, yet the title remains.

Further more that his signature only doubles down on what I think his actual motives are.
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Old 11th August 2017, 12:17 AM   #250
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I'm not caught up, but there is a perfectly reasonable explanation of why a higher number said the torturer/killer would be more likely to be an atheist than a theist. It doesn't require any hardwired assumptions and the social or evolutionary value of theism is a red herring.

Atheists fear only one set of consequences - the earthly ones, like getting caught, or not being able to live with themselves. Theists in theory fear two sets of consequences - getting caught/not being able to live with themselves, plus the possibility of going to hell, or damaging their karma, at the hands of a supernatural force.

It is riskier behavior for someone who believes in God than it is for the person who doesn't. Therefore the atheist would be less afraid of consequences - a more-limited downside.

Is someone who flies a jet into a skyscraper likely to be an atheist, or a theist? A theist, because there is more potential upside.

I wonder why they didn't just ask the same people whether they thought the perpetrator would more likely be a) an atheist or b) a theist.

Apologies if someone else has made the same point.
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Old 11th August 2017, 01:35 AM   #251
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It bore repeating. The study shows a proportion of people imagine a wicked person might not act out their evil intents if restrained by fear of divine retribution. And to no surprise at all, some atheists are included in that group.

Regarding the thread title, although we've all agreed it's false, it was the headline of the article first linked to, so the OP was only copying somebody else's mistake.
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Old 11th August 2017, 02:03 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I wonder why they didn't just ask the same people whether they thought the perpetrator would more likely be a) an atheist or b) a theist.
As I said before, that's a fundamental part of the methodology, and the way that the study is designed to look at prejudice rather than reasoned conclusions. If they'd simply asked a straight question, responders might have examined their own prejudices and corrected for them; by only considering answers that already suffer from cognitive bias, the study is designed to bypass that level of self-censorship.

And I'm sure there are different crimes that are associated with different demographics, as you suggest. If the initial description were, say, a young man from a racial minority who becomes disillusioned with his life, isolates himself from his friends and family and then blows himself up in a crowded place, I'd be very surprised if anyone thought he was more likely to be a teacher and an atheist than just a teacher.

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Old 11th August 2017, 03:38 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh, you.

/By the way, why do you put a rolls eye next to your name? If I start putiing my name at the end of posts, I would go with something more metal. like:

\m/ The Big Dog \m/
Interesting that you invoke satanism.
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Old 11th August 2017, 06:14 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It bore repeating. The study shows a proportion of people imagine a wicked person might not act out their evil intents if restrained by fear of divine retribution. And to no surprise at all, some atheists are included in that group.
It did? I don't recall seeing that in the paper and I cannot easily get access to it this early a.m Can you specifically post what you are referring to?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 11th August 2017, 06:58 AM   #255
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I am offering my personal opinion for what can explain the effect shown in the paper. Do you think it an unlikely explanation?

I think that a proportion of people, some atheists included, think that religious believers fear divine justice or karmic retribution, and they might consequently expect such people to be less likely to be the terrible person described.
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Old 11th August 2017, 07:30 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I am offering my personal opinion for what can explain the effect shown in the paper. Do you think it an unlikely explanation?

I think that a proportion of people, some atheists included, think that religious believers fear divine justice or karmic retribution, and they might consequently expect such people to be less likely to be the terrible person described.
Oh, you had written "The study shows" so I thought I had missed something.

No worries.
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Old 11th August 2017, 09:37 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Nothing at all to correct, however, if you feel aggrieved and can convince the editors of the article linked in the op that their headline is problematic, and they change it, I will thereafter go to the mat to have the headline changed.

Godspeed.
What were you cheerfully conceding, then?
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Old 11th August 2017, 09:44 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
What were you cheerfully conceding, then?
I don't remember, I cheerfully concede many things, mostly small insignificant issues that have appeared to get under someone's skin for a reason or other, and I usually do it so we can get back with a laser like focus on learning and teaching the substantive issues.

Cheers!
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Old 11th August 2017, 09:55 AM   #259
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I cheerfully concede that I like cheerful concessions.
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Old 11th August 2017, 11:57 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh, you had written "The study shows" so I thought I had missed something.





No worries.


Perhaps that should have been 'the study shows me...'
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Old 11th August 2017, 12:10 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I don't remember, I cheerfully concede many things, mostly small insignificant issues that have appeared to get under someone's skin for a reason or other, and I usually do it so we can get back with a laser like focus on learning and teaching the substantive issues.

Cheers!
That's precious.

What is more substantive about this topic than properly reporting the conclusions the study can actually support?

It's a fairly flimsy study to begin with. But when you stretch it beyond what it can support, it reflects on your position. And when you feign forgetting that you cheerfully conceded that very salient point, it reflects on your arguments.
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Old 11th August 2017, 12:21 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
That's precious.

What is more substantive about this topic than properly reporting the conclusions the study can actually support?

It's a fairly flimsy study to begin with. But when you stretch it beyond what it can support, it reflects on your position. And when you feign forgetting that you cheerfully conceded that very salient point, it reflects on your arguments.
Oh dear, I had no idea that it meant ever so much to you, so I have spent a few minutes of my time and have determined that what i had "cheerfully conceded" did not involve the title of the article in the OP. I remain willing to request that the thread title be amended when the authors of the article linked in the OP do so as well.
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Old 11th August 2017, 12:38 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh dear, I had no idea that it meant ever so much to you,
Your thread, just looking to keep it top quality!

Quote:
so I have spent a few minutes of my time and have determined that what i had "cheerfully conceded" did not involve the title of the article in the OP. I remain willing to request that the thread title be amended when the authors of the article linked in the OP do so as well.
Oh, so you are keeping the admittedly misleading title as a skeptical exercise for the reader. A bit of a lesson in journalistic click bait. Nicely done.

It is a shame when articles use headlines that are misleading and we should draw attention to those misleading headlines. My bad for not getting your purpose from the start.

Cheers.
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Old 11th August 2017, 12:39 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh dear, I had no idea that it meant ever so much to you, so I have spent a few minutes of my time and have determined that what i had "cheerfully conceded" did not involve the title of the article in the OP. I remain willing to request that the thread title be amended when the authors of the article linked in the OP do so as well.
No. You don't. It would matter not a whit to you what the author did.
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Old 11th August 2017, 12:40 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post

Oh, so you are keeping the admittedly misleading title as a skeptical exercise for the reader. A bit of a lesson in journalistic click bait. Nicely done.
OH! Ohhhhhhh....who knows what we are seeing?

A bit of a dead giveaway added by me....
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Old 11th August 2017, 12:45 PM   #266
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Atheists thought immoral, even by fellow atheists: study

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
No. You don't. It would matter not a whit to you what the author did.
I don't remain willing? Hmm, i am going to just have to have to go right ahead and disagree with you.

Have you gotten feedback from the linked article's author/editor/publisher?

Full disclosure, I have no problem with the headline here or in the linked article, but remain willing to adjust things if the need arises, and I am beginning to get the feeling that need ain't never gonna arise.
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Old 11th August 2017, 02:08 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
... Full disclosure, I have no problem with the headline here or in the linked article ...
I get that you like what it says, but it isn't true.

I have a tiny bit of a problem with your not having any problem with that. Isn't knowingly promulgating a false claim a bit immoral?
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Old 11th August 2017, 02:21 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I get that you like what it says, but it isn't true.

I have a tiny bit of a problem with your not having any problem with that. Isn't knowingly promulgating a false claim a bit immoral?
it is a headline with a summary of the article and a link to the actual paper and a "feedback to editors" button.

I think it is also a fair summary of the study's conclusions.
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Old 11th August 2017, 02:31 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
it is a headline with a summary of the article and a link to the actual paper and a "feedback to editors" button.

I think it is also a fair summary of the study's conclusions.
Did I just imagine that you cheerfully conceded the study found "immoral thought atheist" and not "atheists thought immoral"?
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Old 11th August 2017, 02:40 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Did I just imagine that you cheerfully conceded the study found "immoral thought atheist" and not "atheists thought immoral"?
I believe I cheerfully conceded that I would use whatever is in my sig.

I did not concede, cheerfully or otherwise that the headline was false.

I hope you can appreciate the distinction?
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Old 11th August 2017, 02:59 PM   #271
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Well, if they run another survey which finds people tend to think a Hillary supporter would be interested in politics, will you be okay with that being reported as people tending to think anyone interested in politics would support Hillary?
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Old 11th August 2017, 04:59 PM   #272
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The Big Dog, what proportion of atheists do you think are members of atheist organisations? All of them? Some? Hardly any?

And as a side issue, I'd like you to consider the number of atheist organisations in the world and compare it to the number of Christian organisations in the world. Not as a counter to your argument or anything, I'd just like you to think about that ratio for a bit.
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Old 11th August 2017, 05:27 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The Big Dog, what proportion of atheists do you think are members of atheist organisations? All of them? Some? Hardly any?

And as a side issue, I'd like you to consider the number of atheist organisations in the world and compare it to the number of Christian organisations in the world. Not as a counter to your argument or anything, I'd just like you to think about that ratio for a bit.
I have already answered a virtually identical question.

As such: folks, the comparison that someone else came up with (not me) was not a comparison between religion/atheism, it was between atheism and "not collecting stamps."

Thus:

And as a side issue, I'd like you to consider the number of atheist organisations in the world and compare it to the number of "not collecting stamps" organizations in the world. Not as a counter to your argument or anything, I'd just like you to think about that ratio for a bit.
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:30 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I have already answered a virtually identical question.

As such: folks, the comparison that someone else came up with (not me) was not a comparison between religion/atheism, it was between atheism and "not collecting stamps."

Thus:

And as a side issue, I'd like you to consider the number of atheist organisations in the world and compare it to the number of "not collecting stamps" organizations in the world. Not as a counter to your argument or anything, I'd just like you to think about that ratio for a bit.
Of course there are more. After all, religion has political, social, and emotional impact (at least) in society, so of course there are associations by people who would like to limit that influence.

The point is a different one. Some people have claimed that atheism is also a kind of religion, and the counter is: "It is as much a religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby."

However, believers often miss the point...

Hans
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:46 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Of course there are more. After all, religion has political, social, and emotional impact (at least) in society, so of course there are associations by people who would like to limit that influence.

The point is a different one. Some people have claimed that atheism is also a kind of religion, and the counter is: "It is as much a religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby."

However, believers often miss the point...

Hans
And non-believers miss the point of what a terrible comparison it is.
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:17 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
And non-believers miss the point of what a terrible comparison it is.
Not believing in (a) god = not collecting stamps

Cannot get easier than that.

Unless, of course, you want to make it complicated
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:27 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
Not believing in (a) god = not collecting stamps

Cannot get easier than that.

Unless, of course, you want to make it complicated
That is such a false dichotomy, but I don't know why I even bother trying to explain it.

If atheists want to describe themselves in such a grossly over simplified, negative generalization, who am I to complain?
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:40 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
And non-believers miss the point of what a terrible comparison it is.
Not believing in gods, not collecting stamps .... I think it's quite good. So many believers seem unable to grasp that you can just ... fail to believe.

Hans
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:53 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is such a false dichotomy, but I don't know why I even bother trying to explain it.
Me either. You're not any good at it.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
If atheists want to describe themselves in such a grossly over simplified, negative generalization, who am I to complain?
Good question, but complain you do -- constantly.
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:56 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Not believing in gods, not collecting stamps .... I think it's quite good. So many believers seem unable to grasp that you can just ... fail to believe.

Hans
Yeah, pretty clear that I "get" the comparison, I am just explaining that it is utterly insipid when looked at it in any depth whatsoever.

But hey, use it if you want.
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