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Tags atheism , atheists , immorality , morality

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Old 21st August 2017, 03:38 PM   #281
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Again, please answer the question. Don't dodge.

SNIP.
I answered the question.

Thanks for posting.
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Old 21st August 2017, 03:48 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I answered the question.
No, you didn't. Not even remotely.

How can we engage in honest debate when you just refuse to answer questions?
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Old 21st August 2017, 06:10 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Good advice that I gave myself and ********** up by not following it
See my sig,
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Old 21st August 2017, 06:15 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Obviously
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
When did you do that?
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Stop stalking me, you stalking stalker who stalks !
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Excellent tip!
I have no problem recommending that you start following your own advice at your earliest opportunity.
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Which obsessive attention is that? The one where I reply to your posts every few months?
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Me either. You're not any good at it.



Good question, but complain you do -- constantly.
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I think you know better than that.
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Take it any way you wish.
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Your recent arguments have been exemplary failures. Better luck next time. You and Jabba ought to get together. The two of you couldn't possibly come up with worse logical positions than what you already have done.

Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
It never happened. Play nice or be recognized as a Jabba-type immoral example.
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What do you think that link you posted says?
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See my sig,
See his sig.
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Old 21st August 2017, 07:20 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
So far as I can tell, TBD dislikes the analogy of not collecting stamps because it does not address the non-existence of support groups to help people cope with their particular society's expectation that they should collect stamps.

That seems to me a feeble objection. An analogy without limits is not an analogy, it is the thing itself.

A good analogy makes it easy to grasp aspects which are often misunderstood. So it's an excellent and useful analogy, because it addresses common misconceptions about atheism which we've all seen trotted out on this forum over the years.

No, it's not a hobby, it's the lack of one. No, we don't secretly collect stamps. No, we don't all collect postcards or baseball cards instead, we just don't collect stamps. No, we don't hate stamps and secretly serve those who seek the destruction of the Post Office, we just don't collect stamps. People can grasp all of those ideas even when the equivalent statement about atheism confuses them.

If TBD understands all of that yet finds some other aspect of atheism bewildering, perhaps some other analogy would be more helpful for him, but for the misunderstandings we see over and over again not collecting stamps is a really useful one.
This is an excellent explanation about why this particular analogy works and why it's so apt; thanks for posting it!
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Old 21st August 2017, 07:44 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
This is an excellent explanation about why this particular analogy works and why it's so apt; thanks for posting it!
Curious, it claims that "we" (who is "we" anyway?) "we just don't collect stamps" yet fails to mention things like people who go to meetings and belong to groups dedicated to "not collecting stamps" (oh wait, people don't actually do that but they DO go to meeting and belong to groups dedicated to atheism) (guess that part of the "the equivalent statement about atheism" "confuses" me in the sense that it is not "excellent" does not "work" and is not "apt" in the slightest)

You know what else "confuses" me? You also mention that the excellent, apt, workable analogy claims that people do not want to destroy the post office, but how can you apply that sweepingly overboard generalization to all atheists and religions? Because I gotta tell ya, I've seen plenty of "atheists" openly advocating against religion to the point that it should be destroyed.

as such, it does not appear that "not collecting stamps" analogy is excellent, apt or works.

But I have pointed that out before
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Old 22nd August 2017, 04:15 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Curious, it claims that "we" (who is "we" anyway?) "we just don't collect stamps" yet fails to mention things like people who go to meetings and belong to groups dedicated to "not collecting stamps" (oh wait, people don't actually do that but they DO go to meeting and belong to groups dedicated to atheism) (guess that part of the "the equivalent statement about atheism" "confuses" me in the sense that it is not "excellent" does not "work" and is not "apt" in the slightest)

You know what else "confuses" me? You also mention that the excellent, apt, workable analogy claims that people do not want to destroy the post office, but how can you apply that sweepingly overboard generalization to all atheists and religions? Because I gotta tell ya, I've seen plenty of "atheists" openly advocating against religion to the point that it should be destroyed.

as such, it does not appear that "not collecting stamps" analogy is excellent, apt or works.

But I have pointed that out before
Yes, yes you have pointed that out before. Having seen people wearing lederhosen you now reject any description of what it's like to live in Europe that does not explain the wearing of lederhosen.

Just in case that analogy fails to meet your exacting standards, you reject an analogy which helpfully covers common misconceptions about what atheism is on the grounds that you can think of something which some atheists do which the analogy does not describe. That is a specious argument since that behaviour is not what atheism is and therefore not the thing which the analogy helps explain.

I too have pointed that out before.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 04:20 AM   #288
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This Just In!!

In an unsurprising finding from a moment's reflection, believers in the supernatural were confirmed moments ago as not possessing a shred of evidence for their wild claims, as has been pointed out in the past. Having lost any grounding or foundation for claims to superiority, they are floundering, scurrying from tu quoques to simple "Oh, yeahs!" This may be best explained by their conditioned tendency to engage in nonsensical ritualistic behaviors, of which chest-beating now seems to be the preferred practice.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 06:15 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Just in case that analogy fails to meet your exacting standards, you reject an analogy which helpfully covers common misconceptions about what atheism is on the grounds that you can think of something which some atheists do which the analogy does not describe. That is a specious argument since that behaviour is not what atheism is and therefore not the thing which the analogy helps explain.

I too have pointed that out before.
The bolded section makes absolutely clear what I have been saying all along: the analogy is incredibly flawed because it purports to describe what atheists do generally while ignoring that fact that "some" atheists do not adhere to and in fact contradict that analogy.

Yet despite agreeing with the flaw, you then call it specious? The only thing that is specious is the analogy itself, but hey, feel free to use it.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 07:01 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The bolded section makes absolutely clear what I have been saying all along: the analogy is incredibly flawed because it purports to describe what atheists do generally while ignoring that fact that "some" atheists do not adhere to and in fact contradict that analogy.

Yet despite agreeing with the flaw, you then call it specious? The only thing that is specious is the analogy itself, but hey, feel free to use it.
My bolding this time.

No. It doesn't. It purports to describe what atheism is for people who seem to struggle to grasp the concept. It does not pretend to describe what some minority of atheists like to do, whether that be playing tennis, reading comic books or arguing about philosophy on the internet.

I am at least heartened to hear that you now feel I've described "what you have been saying all along". Better that than further claims of strawmanning. Progress of a kind.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 07:52 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
My bolding this time.

No. It doesn't. It purports to describe what atheism is for people who seem to struggle to grasp the concept. It does not pretend to describe what some minority of atheists like to do, whether that be playing tennis, reading comic books or arguing about philosophy on the internet.

I am at least heartened to hear that you now feel I've described "what you have been saying all along". Better that than further claims of strawmanning. Progress of a kind.
eureka! I finally get it. Atheism is like people who don't collect stamps, and some that do, but they are in minority so they are safely swept under the rug and therefore go ahead and use this analogy because it is "not' a dumpster fire (except when it is)...
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Old 22nd August 2017, 09:41 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
eureka! I finally get it. Atheism is like people who don't collect stamps, and some that do, but they are in minority so they are safely swept under the rug and therefore go ahead and use this analogy because it is "not' a dumpster fire (except when it is)...
Ah, so close. Nearly there.

Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby, except that so far as we know there are fewer (possibly none?) among the non-stamp-collectors who want postage stamps to be abolished, but since wanting religion to be abolished is not what atheism is, it's perfectly irrelevant to an analogy for what atheism is.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 09:51 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Ah, so close. Nearly there.

Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby, except that so far as we know there are fewer (possibly none?) among the non-stamp-collectors who want postage stamps to be abolished, but since wanting religion to be abolished is not what atheism is, it's perfectly irrelevant to an analogy for what atheism is.
You have declared that is not what atheism is, but have neglected to account for the fact that is what some atheists do, and some other atheists belong to groups like American Atheists, which is "dedicated to defending the civil liberties of atheists."

So all we need is:

Freedom from Collecting Stamps Foundation
American People who do not collect stamps
and on and on...

mayhaps it is not actually a good analogy?
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Old 22nd August 2017, 09:58 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You have declared that is not what atheism is, but have neglected to account for the fact that is what some atheists do, and some other atheists belong to groups like American Atheists, which is "dedicated to defending the civil liberties of atheists."

So all we need is:

Freedom from Collecting Stamps Foundation
American People who do not collect stamps
and on and on...

mayhaps it is not actually a good analogy?
Sounds like... Catholics are not defined by pedophilia, but since some catholic priests have committed pedophilia, we can define them that way.

If The Big Dog wants to define all Atheists by what some do, then we can define Catholics by what some do.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 10:02 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
Sounds like... .
No it doesn't, because I am explaining why the "not collecting stamps" analogy does not work to describe atheists or atheism in general.

Perhaps therefore you will wish to reconsider your viewpoint?
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Old 22nd August 2017, 10:07 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No it doesn't, because I am explaining why the "not collecting stamps" analogy does not work to describe atheists or atheism in general.

Perhaps therefore you will wish to reconsider your viewpoint?
You are doing a very poor job of explaining it, since it actually does work very nicely. You're trying to define a large group of people who have one thing in common: Not believing in the existence of a supernatural being.

You're trying to define them with a narrower world view that suits you, since you practice a religion. I certainly don't practice atheism.

You collect stamps. That's fine. Whatever. But don't whine that people who don't collect stamps keep telling you that they don't collect stamps.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 11:21 AM   #297
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It's always great fun watching religious people on here turn themselves inside out trying to define atheism the way that suits them.

Never traveled, TBD? Get yourself away from the bible belt of the USA and you'll find most atheists never give atheism a seconds thought in their entire lives. They're just perfectly content to let the religious be religious, knowing that it isn't for them. The only clashes are when religion seeks to move into areas of civil society where it has no business being.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 11:39 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It's always great fun watching religious people on here turn themselves inside out trying to define atheism the way that suits them.

Never traveled, TBD? Get yourself away from the bible belt of the USA
Chicago, the Queen of the "Bible Belt."

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Old 22nd August 2017, 11:56 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Chicago, the Queen of the "Bible Belt."

Quelle surprise. No comment on the content. Just pick something you can make a quip about, and ignore the stuff you don't have an answer for.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 12:06 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Again, please answer the question. Don't dodge.
Very funny.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 12:08 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Quelle surprise. No comment on the content. Just pick something you can make a quip about, and ignore the stuff you don't have an answer for.
Oh the first sentence was risible, but then I get to the second 'do you travel' sentence that was nothing but hot fictional snark? How can one not feast on such posts??

<Chef Kisses Fingers gif here>
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Old 22nd August 2017, 12:11 PM   #302
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You make my point for me, beautifully. Thank you.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 12:12 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You make my point for me, beautifully. Thank you.
Sometimes you just have to sit back and say "Thank you".
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Old 22nd August 2017, 12:22 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You make my point for me, beautifully. Thank you.
lolz, I'm the bad guy because you screwed up your blatant "never traveled" attempted slur so egregiously?
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Old 22nd August 2017, 12:27 PM   #305
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Thanks again! Lovely.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 12:31 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Thanks again! Lovely.
The pleasure is very simply and very truthfully all mine!

Fantastic!
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Old 22nd August 2017, 12:35 PM   #307
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So, do you know any atheists, TBD?
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Old 22nd August 2017, 12:42 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
So, do you know any atheists, TBD?
what down here in Bible Country? Golly gee, I sure do!

Do you know any Jews who fled atheist states due to persecution as part of state mandated pogroms, and which pogroms go a long way toward explaining why people think atheists are immoral?

I'll answer my own question; I do.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 12:50 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Do you know any Jews who fled atheist Marxist totalitarian states due to persecution as part of state mandated pogroms, and which pogroms go a long way toward explaining why people think atheists totalitarian ideologies are immoral, owing to the singular truths they insist upon?

I'll answer my own question; I do don't.
FTFY. Added the last for your edification. When in an honest mood, you might glance at the entry for ideology in the dictionary.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 01:01 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
FTFY. Added the last for your edification. When in an honest mood, you might glance at the entry for ideology in the dictionary.
You might want to reread what you wrote, because "Marxist totalitarian" is pretty much a synonym for 'atheist state" and what in the heck does "owing to the singular truths they insist upon" refer to?

You a big fan of "totalitarian ideologies" are ya?
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Old 22nd August 2017, 01:04 PM   #311
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How about a little cultural perspective. You see, you (claim to) KNOW that you know atheists and Jews. I, on the other hand, have no idea whether anyone I know is religious, and I have never, ever had a conversation with anyone in real life (other than my wife and kids) about religion or atheism. I don't know if my own mother is religious. It's a non-subject here. You might get hot under the collar about it, but European atheists don't give it a seconds thought. You won't find anyone here who equates religion with morals, and indeed, they'd look at you with astonishment if you were to suggest such silliness. You also won't find anyone under 70 in the local churches, where congregations, despite combining many parishes, are never in double figures other than at a funeral (our local vicar officiates at 6 local churches, in turn, which means that each one is used one week in 6).

Like I said, it's a non-subject here. So it is highly amusing to see you and other religious types here tie yourself up in knots trying to define atheism in a way which suits you, because atheism is what it is: the lack of belief in god/s. Add utter apathy for the silly subject and even the most one-eyed might just get to understand why the habit of theists twisting and turning words to serve their own ends on the subject is somewhere between amusing and sad. I don't give a damn what you call yourself, nor do I give a damn how you try to classify me. It wouldn't make the slightest difference to anything even if you got your own way, because no-one around here actually gives a **** about religion or atheism.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 01:14 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
How about a little cultural perspective. You see, you (claim to) KNOW that you know atheists and Jews. I, on the other hand, have no idea whether anyone I know is religious, and I have never, ever had a conversation with anyone in real life (other than my wife and kids) about religion or atheism. I don't know if my own mother is religious. It's a non-subject here. You might get hot under the collar about it, but European atheists don't give it a seconds thought. You won't find anyone here who equates religion with morals, and indeed, they'd look at you with astonishment if you were to suggest such silliness. You also won't find anyone under 70 in the local churches, where congregations, despite combining many parishes, are never in double figures other than at a funeral (our local vicar officiates at 6 local churches, in turn, which means that each one is used one week in 6).

Like I said, it's a non-subject here. So it is highly amusing to see you and other religious types here tie yourself up in knots trying to define atheism in a way which suits you, because atheism is what it is: the lack of belief in god/s. Add utter apathy for the silly subject and even the most one-eyed might just get to understand why the habit of theists twisting and turning words to serve their own ends on the subject is somewhere between amusing and sad. I don't give a damn what you call yourself, nor do I give a damn how you try to classify me. It wouldn't make the slightest difference to anything even if you got your own way, because no-one around here actually gives a **** about religion or atheism.
For someone who has "never, ever had a conversation with anyone in real life (other than my wife and kids) about religion or atheism,' you sure have lots of knowledge about the comings and goings of the local vicorage; and although he does not give a "damn' about it, he sure is quick to accuse me of typing myself up in knots...

"The lady protests too much, methinks"

Act III, Scene II of Hamlet
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Old 22nd August 2017, 01:44 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
For someone who has "never, ever had a conversation with anyone in real life (other than my wife and kids) about religion or atheism,' you sure have lots of knowledge about the comings and goings of the local vicorage; and although he does not give a "damn' about it, he sure is quick to accuse me of typing myself up in knots...
Well, there's your problem. You find it strange that anyone takes an interest in their local community. You also find it strange that it is possible to live a life unencumbered by superstitious nonsense.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
"The lady protests too much, methinks"

Act III, Scene II of Hamlet
Irrelevant quote is irrelevant.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 01:47 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Well, there's your problem. You find it strange that anyone takes an interest in their local community. .
I guess I find it strange how one would take an interest in it while, ya know, claiming not to, you know, TALK to anyone about it.

Curious and curiouser
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Old 22nd August 2017, 02:13 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Well, there's your problem. You find it strange that anyone takes an interest in their local community. .
I guess I find it strange how one would take an interest in it while, ya know, claiming not to, you know, TALK to anyone about it.

Curious and curiouser
Now your claiming atheists should have no interest in their local community and therefore never talk to anyone about their local community. What a load.

Or maybe you think that the local church is all that there is to a community. That's also a load.

I happen to be an atheist yet I am an active member of the resident's association. We raise funds for various projects for the benefit of the community. Religion is never mentioned ever, not because it is not allowed, but because it is simply unimportant to the community.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 02:21 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
How about a little cultural perspective. You see, you (claim to) KNOW that you know atheists and Jews. I, on the other hand, have no idea whether anyone I know is religious, and I have never, ever had a conversation with anyone in real life (other than my wife and kids) about religion or atheism. I don't know if my own mother is religious. It's a non-subject here. You might get hot under the collar about it, but European atheists don't give it a seconds thought. You won't find anyone here who equates religion with morals, and indeed, they'd look at you with astonishment if you were to suggest such silliness. You also won't find anyone under 70 in the local churches, where congregations, despite combining many parishes, are never in double figures other than at a funeral (our local vicar officiates at 6 local churches, in turn, which means that each one is used one week in 6).

Like I said, it's a non-subject here. So it is highly amusing to see you and other religious types here tie yourself up in knots trying to define atheism in a way which suits you, because atheism is what it is: the lack of belief in god/s. Add utter apathy for the silly subject and even the most one-eyed might just get to understand why the habit of theists twisting and turning words to serve their own ends on the subject is somewhere between amusing and sad. I don't give a damn what you call yourself, nor do I give a damn how you try to classify me. It wouldn't make the slightest difference to anything even if you got your own way, because no-one around here actually gives a **** about religion or atheism.
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Now your claiming atheists should have no interest in their local community and therefore never talk to anyone about their local community. What a load.

Or maybe you think that the local church is all that there is to a community. That's also a load.

I happen to be an atheist yet I am an active member of the resident's association. We raise funds for various projects for the benefit of the community. Religion is never mentioned ever, not because it is not allowed, but because it is simply unimportant to the community.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 02:41 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
For someone who has "never, ever had a conversation with anyone in real life (other than my wife and kids) about religion or atheism,' you sure have lots of knowledge about the comings and goings of the local vicorage; and although he does not give a "damn' about it, he sure is quick to accuse me of typing myself up in knots...

"The lady protests too much, methinks"

Act III, Scene II of Hamlet
The vicar (a woman) is a neighbour. As an architect, I also get to inspect the local churches every few years, where the notices about where the next service will be held are always pinned to the door. I've been involved with fundraising and so on for the church buildings, because these beautiful ancient buildings are endangered by their lack of use, investment and support.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 02:44 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
How about a little cultural perspective. You see, you (claim to) KNOW that you know atheists and Jews. I, on the other hand, have no idea whether anyone I know is religious, and I have never, ever had a conversation with anyone in real life (other than my wife and kids) about religion or atheism. I don't know if my own mother is religious. It's a non-subject here. You might get hot under the collar about it, but European atheists don't give it a seconds thought. You won't find anyone here who equates religion with morals, and indeed, they'd look at you with astonishment if you were to suggest such silliness. You also won't find anyone under 70 in the local churches, where congregations, despite combining many parishes, are never in double figures other than at a funeral (our local vicar officiates at 6 local churches, in turn, which means that each one is used one week in 6).

Like I said, it's a non-subject here. So it is highly amusing to see you and other religious types here tie yourself up in knots trying to define atheism in a way which suits you, because atheism is what it is: the lack of belief in god/s. Add utter apathy for the silly subject and even the most one-eyed might just get to understand why the habit of theists twisting and turning words to serve their own ends on the subject is somewhere between amusing and sad. I don't give a damn what you call yourself, nor do I give a damn how you try to classify me. It wouldn't make the slightest difference to anything even if you got your own way, because no-one around here actually gives a **** about religion or atheism.
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Now your claiming atheists should have no interest in their local community and therefore never talk to anyone about their local community. What a load.

Or maybe you think that the local church is all that there is to a community. That's also a load.

I happen to be an atheist yet I am an active member of the resident's association. We raise funds for various projects for the benefit of the community. Religion is never mentioned ever, not because it is not allowed, but because it is simply unimportant to the community.
All you have in response is pointless smilies?
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Old 22nd August 2017, 02:45 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
The vicar (a woman) is a neighbour.
TBD head melted.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 02:46 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
All you have in response is pointless smilies?
Does the hilite not work on your screen? You know the hilite that hilites the sentence that hilites how wrong your arguments were?

that hilite?
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