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Old 10th August 2017, 05:22 AM   #1
Travis
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Do Liberals need better marketing science?

Liberals have a whole lot of truth and science on their side. And yet conservative messaging keeps things all muddled. While some of this can be attributed to the Conservative stranglehold on talk radio and the Sinclair Group owning all the local TV stations that are forced to air conservative propoganda I contend a bunch of it comes down to the fact that Liberals assume they don't need marketing because it is beneath them and are getting trounced.

Climate change: basic well understood physics and chemistry but Conservative marketing has people questioning if weather even exists.

Universal healthcare: Definitely provides better medicine at lower cost than America's insurance Hunger Games system. But Conservative marketing has people convinced that all the cancer drugs will be diverted to black people in Baltimore because of Affirmative Action.

Good public schools: Obviously a good national resource. But conservative marketing has people about to lynch teachers for being anti-American traitors.


I say we need to market the message better and stop relying on our being right to win the day.
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:10 AM   #2
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Those are some issues -- and of high concern to Democratic voters. Convincing the other half the country to care about them over and above their own concerns is a problem of conceit on your part more than lack of communication skill.
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The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:16 AM   #3
fuelair
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Those are some issues -- and of high concern to Democratic voters. Convincing the other half the country to care about them over and above their own concerns is a problem of conceit on your part more than lack of communication skill.
In other words the Basket of Deplorables remain deplorable. And quite ignorant in the most important areas.
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:18 AM   #4
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Here is some Marketing Science: They need some ABH&T, Anybody But Hillary and Trump.

The rest of what you have to say is all Left Wing Fake News.
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:24 AM   #5
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A simple message would be to highlight the policies of economically successful Blue states and their contribution to total US GDP. Focus on Federal vs. State issues like Marihuana and sanctuary cities.
Look for prominent Democrats who are not East Coast and have them blast the Trump cabinet as the New York wannabee Mafia they are, a cartel of millionaires and billionaires with no contact to the rest of the US.
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:24 AM   #6
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I don't subscribe to your definitions of better and good.
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:30 AM   #7
Beerina
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
In other words the Basket of Deplorables remain deplorable. And quite ignorant in the most important areas.

Make sure you include this bullet point in your fliers just like Hillary did!
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The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:36 AM   #8
The Great Zaganza
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Elections involving TV ads are a beauty contest.

Just have the actors of the most popular TV shows run for the Dems.

Or do you think Trump would win against Morgan Freeman?
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:52 AM   #9
fuelair
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Make sure you include this bullet point in your fliers just like Hillary did!
I don' need no steenkin' fliers!!!!!!
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Old 10th August 2017, 06:54 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Make sure you include this bullet point in your fliers just like Hillary did!
Truth hurts huh?
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:18 AM   #11
thaiboxerken
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It's not a matter of marketing. It is the media's obsessed need to present all issues as having two equal sides. They present facts as opinions to be debated on. This is why many Americans believe nonsense like creationism and disbelieve facts like climate change.
Many believe Hillary is a criminal despite zero evidence.
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:41 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It's not a matter of marketing. It is the media's obsessed need to present all issues as having two equal sides. They present facts as opinions to be debated on. This is why many Americans believe nonsense like creationism and disbelieve facts like climate change.
Many believe Hillary is a criminal despite zero evidence.

Actually, the problem is much deeper than that. It's about fact vs. fantasy; about a culture that is interested in finding and understanding truth; and a culture that is interested in supporting and enforcing a worldview that sees fact and fantasy as equally valid explanations of the world, and reality merely a matter of personal preference rather than objective fact.

The problem isn't that Democrats need better marketing, the problem is that Democrats are much more invested in the objective fact model of reality, the GOP is more heavily invested in the personal fantasy model of reality, and the personal fantasy model is much more popular in very large parts of the US.

An article I came across recently that very effectively breaks down this dichotomy, and provides some historical context for it.

How America Lost Its Mind

Excerpt:
Quote:
Each of us is on a spectrum somewhere between the poles of rational and irrational. We all have hunches we can’t prove and superstitions that make no sense. Some of my best friends are very religious, and others believe in dubious conspiracy theories. What’s problematic is going overboard—letting the subjective entirely override the objective; thinking and acting as if opinions and feelings are just as true as facts. The American experiment, the original embodiment of the great Enlightenment idea of intellectual freedom, whereby every individual is welcome to believe anything she wishes, has metastasized out of control. From the start, our ultra-individualism was attached to epic dreams, sometimes epic fantasies—every American one of God’s chosen people building a custom-made utopia, all of us free to reinvent ourselves by imagination and will. In America nowadays, those more exciting parts of the Enlightenment idea have swamped the sober, rational, empirical parts. Little by little for centuries, then more and more and faster and faster during the past half century, we Americans have given ourselves over to all kinds of magical thinking, anything-goes relativism, and belief in fanciful explanation—small and large fantasies that console or thrill or terrify us. And most of us haven’t realized how far-reaching our strange new normal has become.

Much more than the other billion or so people in the developed world, we Americans believe—really believe—in the supernatural and the miraculous, in Satan on Earth, in reports of recent trips to and from heaven, and in a story of life’s instantaneous creation several thousand years ago.

We believe that the government and its co-conspirators are hiding all sorts of monstrous and shocking truths from us, concerning assassinations, extraterrestrials, the genesis of aids, the 9/11 attacks, the dangers of vaccines, and so much more.

And this was all true before we became familiar with the terms post-factual and post-truth, before we elected a president with an astoundingly open mind about conspiracy theories, what’s true and what’s false, the nature of reality.

We have passed through the looking glass and down the rabbit hole. America has mutated into Fantasyland.

There are some aspects of the article I would quibble with, most notably it's assertion that this process started in the 1960s, when it is very clearly rooted in the 1950s utopian ideal of the American Dream and the eventual breakdown of that belief. In general, though, it's pretty spot on.
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:44 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
In other words the Basket of Deplorables remain deplorable. And quite ignorant in the most important areas.
I'm guessing that this was said in jest, but for the record I do think this is probably the biggest problems that liberals have. They assume they know what the important areas are and anyone who disagrees - not even about the facts but just about their own personal prioritization of the issue is ignorant, deplorable or whatever.

For example, I remember so many LGBT news outlets were shocked and horrified after the election that 14% of LGBTs voted for Trump and they should be ashamed of themselves because of homophobia of the right... bla bla bla

But I was thinking how stupid it is not to expect members of the LGBT community to vote for a right wing leader who talks about fighting terrorism in an election year that was right after the attack in Orlando.

Because apparently people realize that a terrorist attack usually give conservatives a boost in the polls, but somehow think that gays aren't humans and don't behave the way that most people do because they are gays therefore must vote towards liberals no matter what.

That's the issue here. The order of importance of everyone of the issues is a personal thing. It's reasonable that person A has security as its top most priority and person B has the economy as its top priority, C will want LGBT rights, D will want church and state issues and so forth.

Leaving aside what's one position on the issues are, the fact that people don't realize the priorities are an individual thing as where they get their ass kicked.
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:47 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't subscribe to your definitions of better and good.
This is the problem. Liberals think that science and universal healthcare and public schools are good. Liberals think that we want to improve our lot and live together in harmony. But for a large part of the population that just isn't so. Many are committed to religion and cannot abide reality. Others love to hate, and some just want to see the World burn.

Hillary called these people Deplorables for good reason.

Originally Posted by Travis
I say we need to market the message better and stop relying on our being right to win the day.
I say we keep being right and rub their noses in it.
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Old 10th August 2017, 09:03 AM   #15
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Marketing, especially GOP political marketing, depends on manipulating the most primitive regions of the brain. Those regions stimulate thoughts and behaviors that are inherently reactionary/conservative.

Democrats are always going to be at a disadvantage in that arena. Better way to improve their position would be to demand clean elections from registration to vote counting and including strict campaign spending limits to keep out excessive advertising.
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Old 10th August 2017, 11:16 AM   #16
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Without even reading the OP - yes, they do, in a big way. Drop the sanctimonious crap, and - other stuff. Very quick version of my answer.

My quick answer for the right would be to drop the religious right, for starters. In fact I'd tell them to start another party.
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Old 10th August 2017, 11:46 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Liberals have a whole lot of truth and science on their side. And yet conservative messaging keeps things all muddled. While some of this can be attributed to the Conservative stranglehold on talk radio and the Sinclair Group owning all the local TV stations that are forced to air conservative propoganda I contend a bunch of it comes down to the fact that Liberals assume they don't need marketing because it is beneath them and are getting trounced.

Climate change: basic well understood physics and chemistry but Conservative marketing has people questioning if weather even exists.

Universal healthcare: Definitely provides better medicine at lower cost than America's insurance Hunger Games system. But Conservative marketing has people convinced that all the cancer drugs will be diverted to black people in Baltimore because of Affirmative Action.

Good public schools: Obviously a good national resource. But conservative marketing has people about to lynch teachers for being anti-American traitors.


I say we need to market the message better and stop relying on our being right to win the day.
We just need to stop being obnoxious pricks.

When everyone someone coughs they are accused of being racist sexist or discriminatory, pretty soon that person is going to stop listening.


Cutting folks some slack does wonders to bring them to your side, but we seem to want to go on twenty minute rants every time someone even appears to be not dancing to our tune.

It feels good, but it is destroying or ability to accomplish our goals.
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Old 10th August 2017, 03:51 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by GrandMasterFox View Post
For example, I remember so many LGBT news outlets were shocked and horrified after the election that 14% of LGBTs voted for Trump and they should be ashamed of themselves because of homophobia of the right... bla bla bla

But I was thinking how stupid it is not to expect members of the LGBT community to vote for a right wing leader who talks about fighting terrorism in an election year that was right after the attack in Orlando.

It may be about that, but there is growing awareness in the LGBT community that there is a substantial problem with racism among white LGBT people, one that is only just now being examined, and strong evidence that they reacted strongly to the xenophobia and racism expressed during the campaign. There is also a substantial segment of the community that identifies as Libertarian rather than Left and leans toward the anarcho-capitalist wing of the GOP, which went heavily for Trump.
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Old 10th August 2017, 03:58 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
It may be about that, but there is growing awareness in the LGBT community that there is a substantial problem with racism among white LGBT people, one that is only just now being examined, and strong evidence that they reacted strongly to the xenophobia and racism expressed during the campaign. There is also a substantial segment of the community that identifies as Libertarian rather than Left and leans toward the anarcho-capitalist wing of the GOP, which went heavily for Trump.
Vancouver never had official segregation, but there was a very clear unofficial version until quite recently. One of the disappointments for progressives in the 1980s was that half the gay bars and steam baths in the West End were white only.

(enforced by - according to my black gay friends of that vintage - "frustratingly hunky bouncers")

So, no, no surprise that there's an element within this community. But they're not respected, as their motives are generally unethical.
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Old 10th August 2017, 03:58 PM   #20
luchog
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
We just need to stop being obnoxious pricks.

When everyone someone coughs they are accused of being racist sexist or discriminatory, pretty soon that person is going to stop listening.

Except, like most everything else, that is another false narrative created by the far right and does not, in fact, express reality.

The fact is that a very large percentage of the American population is, in fact, racist and sexist and bigoted against LGBT people. But calling out those people is not why the left not getting through to middle-America. It's because middle-America is mired in a fantastical worldview based in religious fanaticism and the idea that anything that does not directly support their worldview is a lie created by a vast conspiracy to destroy good Christian Americans. Even actual, provable science cannot be trusted if it doesn't support that religious worldview.

I grew up in that environment and I'm far too familiar with how they think.

Senator Daniel Patrick Moynahin famously said "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts." But the middle-America mindset right now is one that believes fundamentally and wholeheartedly that they are, in fact, entitled to their own facts.
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Old 10th August 2017, 04:03 PM   #21
luchog
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
So, no, no surprise that there's an element within this community. But they're not respected, as their motives are generally unethical.

It's disturbing just how far that racism goes, how pervasive it is. One of the things that has been bringing it to the foreground lately is how it has been cropping up on LGBT dating sites, most notably with gay men, but there have been complaints from women of colour about being shut out of venues by white lesbians as well, and there's a substantial anti-Semitic thread in LGBT culture that is getting reported on, and which I've personally seen.
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Old 10th August 2017, 04:06 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
We just need to stop being obnoxious pricks.
Maybe effective marketing strategies for the Left and the Right are completely different. Trump and the alt-right got a historic and very cost-effective win by being obnoxious and aggressively insulting to anyone who disagreed with them even slightly.
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Old 10th August 2017, 04:10 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Elections involving TV ads are a beauty contest.

Just have the actors of the most popular TV shows run for the Dems.

Or do you think Trump would win against Morgan Freeman?
George Clooney would get my vote.

It might be just as well to market known "personalities" willing to educate themselves rather than rely on someone coming up through the ranks.
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Old 10th August 2017, 04:12 PM   #24
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Thanks for starting the thread, Travis.

Let's start with the basics. How does the DNC voter data compare to the data collected by Cambridge Analytica?

Pay no attention to the denials behind that curtain. Did Cambridge Analytica influence the Brexit vote and the US election?
Quote:
The US billionaire Robert Mercer – a major Trump supporter who is close friends with Bozell and the former Ukip leader Nigel Farage – was so impressed with Cambridge Analytica that he has reportedly become a major shareholder. Trump’s chief strategist, Steve Bannon, used to sit on its board. Perhaps inevitably, given these connections, the Trump campaign ended up paying almost 5m to the company to help it target swing voters. Mercer introduced Farage to Cambridge Analytica, according to Andy Wigmore, communications director of Leave.EU, the Brexit campaign championed by Farage.

On its website it boasts: “We collect up to 5,000 data points on over 220 million Americans, and use more than 100 data variables to model target audience groups and predict the behaviour of like-minded people.” Its chief executive, Alexander Nix, is an evangelist for the company’s ability to reach voters that ordinary companies can’t.

Can you describe or name any Democratic campaign framing like "repeal and replace" and all the other derogatory slogans against the ACA?


Do the Democrats have a system of spreading talking points like the talking points memos Karl Rove and Frank Luntz used in the Bush campaign and the Republicans still use today?


List of conservative, neoconservative and libertarian think tanks

Here's a different list that includes liberal and left wing institutes: THINK TANKS k POLICY INSTITUTES

Which of those are the most prolific and influential? Certainly the right wing institutes are better funded. But they've also been focused for several decades on influencing the political POV of the country and they've been very successful at it. The Kochs figured out they could get more bang for the buck influencing opinions than they could funding politicians' campaigns.

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Old 10th August 2017, 04:27 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Except, like most everything else, that is another false narrative created by the far right and does not, in fact, express reality.

The fact is that a very large percentage of the American population is, in fact, racist and sexist and bigoted against LGBT people. But calling out those people is not why the left not getting through to middle-America. It's because middle-America is mired in a fantastical worldview based in religious fanaticism and the idea that anything that does not directly support their worldview is a lie created by a vast conspiracy to destroy good Christian Americans. Even actual, provable science cannot be trusted if it doesn't support that religious worldview.

I grew up in that environment and I'm far too familiar with how they think.

Senator Daniel Patrick Moynahin famously said "Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts." But the middle-America mindset right now is one that believes fundamentally and wholeheartedly that they are, in fact, entitled to their own facts.
Man, I'm about as far left as it gets, I feel no need to try and prove my street cred to you (another massive problem we have) , but you are about as far off the mark as you can get.

I see it all the time not because my friends and loved ones are all straight white guys, but the opposite. I see people make a personality of coming across as demanding and condescending , all the whIle talking dramatic offense at anyone else that doesn't pass a sniff test doing the same.

If this wasnt making people hate us, I wouldn't care, but it is. We act as if we will not have to make any changes in a future where everyone gets along, and so help anyone that suggests otherwise, and we act like we get this right because people like us experienced violence and bias the likes of which the vast majority of us never will.

But please keep telling yourself it's nothing but far right idiots that see this. Because of course the way for people to get along is for every person to be as much of an anti social tool as possible. And obviously ,queer folks, brown folks, and every other minority , they don't need support, better to make the major of a country hate them than find some middle ground.
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Old 10th August 2017, 04:58 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Liberals have a whole lot of truth and science on their side. And yet conservative messaging keeps things all muddled. While some of this can be attributed to the Conservative stranglehold on talk radio and the Sinclair Group owning all the local TV stations that are forced to air conservative propoganda I contend a bunch of it comes down to the fact that Liberals assume they don't need marketing because it is beneath them and are getting trounced.

Climate change: basic well understood physics and chemistry but Conservative marketing has people questioning if weather even exists.

Universal healthcare: Definitely provides better medicine at lower cost than America's insurance Hunger Games system. But Conservative marketing has people convinced that all the cancer drugs will be diverted to black people in Baltimore because of Affirmative Action.

Good public schools: Obviously a good national resource. But conservative marketing has people about to lynch teachers for being anti-American traitors.


I say we need to market the message better and stop relying on our being right to win the day.
To this I add the misconceptions many skeptics have that knowledge deficits account for false beliefs and that marketing means being dishonest.
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:02 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Those are some issues -- and of high concern to Democratic voters. Convincing the other half the country to care about them over and above their own concerns is a problem of conceit on your part more than lack of communication skill.
Your post reflects the problem the left is having. We actually have better ideas how to address "their own concerns" but "they" have been hoodwinked by the messaging.

Cases in point: You elected that con-man Trump.

There is no "Replacement" for the ACA and there never was.
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:05 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Here is some Marketing Science: They need some ABH&T, Anybody But Hillary and Trump.

The rest of what you have to say is all Left Wing Fake News.
Please do not turn this thread into another Clinton thread unless you want to talk about all the lies that were told about her that stuck.
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't subscribe to your definitions of better and good.
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:09 PM   #30
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I see a lot of responses that say this isn't needed because so many Americans prefer fantasy. Well those people vote and if they are being more successfully wooed by the slick slogans and talk radio posturing shouldn't the Left retaliate in kind?

I mean let us come up with better slogans for our side. Let us find ways to sell our solutions to people that are hampered with a fantasy world view.

Or do we continue to sit tight as right while losing elections?
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:10 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Make sure you include this bullet point in your fliers just like Hillary did!
Ah, another example. Why is it Trump successfully called every group in the country besides white males names without much problem, but one name Clinton used was a problem?

Easy, make sure the news media talking points repeat over and over that Trump's followers don't care, and point out Clinton's words were a gaffe over and over.

How one could counter and control the news media's negative Clinton narrative needed to have begun decades ago so it looks impossible by the time you get to 2016.
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:11 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
To this I add the misconceptions many skeptics have that knowledge deficits account for false beliefs and that marketing means being dishonest.
I've never worked in the field but I've heard it said that a good salesman only has to lie if he's trying to move a crap product. I don't think that the core values and principles of the Democratic party are crap at all. Some of the specific candidates might be, but the fundamentals of the party are sufficiently viable that an honest campaign can serve them nicely. And candidates can be replaced.
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Old 10th August 2017, 05:13 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It's not a matter of marketing. It is the media's obsessed need to present all issues as having two equal sides. They present facts as opinions to be debated on. This is why many Americans believe nonsense like creationism and disbelieve facts like climate change.
Many believe Hillary is a criminal despite zero evidence.
This is where you are right (the media's business model is a big part of the problem), but also very wrong. You are making the assumption the left cannot control the message or at least influence it.

I'll have to come back to this and address Luchog's posts. It's going to take some time to make my case.

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Old 10th August 2017, 05:53 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I see a lot of responses that say this isn't needed because so many Americans prefer fantasy. Well those people vote and if they are being more successfully wooed by the slick slogans and talk radio posturing shouldn't the Left retaliate in kind?

I mean let us come up with better slogans for our side. Let us find ways to sell our solutions to people that are hampered with a fantasy world view.

Or do we continue to sit tight as right while losing elections?
I absolutely agree. Well said sir! Give this man a cigar!
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:24 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
...
Democrats are always going to be at a disadvantage in that arena.
Why? Does marketing science only work when used by the right?

Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
...Better way to improve their position would be to demand clean elections from registration to vote counting and including strict campaign spending limits to keep out excessive advertising.
And one way to do that is to sell it.

For example, one can sell the aspect of how much government waste is spent on these voter suppression efforts. One can expose John Fund for the fraud that he is. One can emphasize the cheating on the right, go after individuals, get the people in their districts to see the candidate's corruption when we find it and certainly pretending there is voter fraud is one form of corruption.

The left wing has failed to get this message out, it's not that the message cannot be sold.
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:26 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Without even reading the OP - yes, they do, in a big way. Drop the sanctimonious crap, and - other stuff. Very quick version of my answer.

My quick answer for the right would be to drop the religious right, for starters. In fact I'd tell them to start another party.
Payback's a bitch, isn't it?
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:29 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
We just need to stop being obnoxious pricks.

When everyone someone coughs they are accused of being racist sexist or discriminatory, pretty soon that person is going to stop listening.


Cutting folks some slack does wonders to bring them to your side, but we seem to want to go on twenty minute rants every time someone even appears to be not dancing to our tune.

It feels good, but it is destroying or ability to accomplish our goals.
This is the marketing message you have bought. It is not a fact based message. Left wing snowflakes are a minority. But we've let the message be sold that they represent the left the same way the right wing is now dealing with the alt-right they promoted because riled up people come out and vote.
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:31 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
It may be about that, but there is growing awareness in the LGBT community that there is a substantial problem with racism among white LGBT people, one that is only just now being examined, and strong evidence that they reacted strongly to the xenophobia and racism expressed during the campaign. There is also a substantial segment of the community that identifies as Libertarian rather than Left and leans toward the anarcho-capitalist wing of the GOP, which went heavily for Trump.
Racism and homophobia have been promoted. I'm not sure what the real numbers are when they aren't being riled up and their beliefs reinforced and amplified.

It is a serious problem and IMO made worse by right wing marketing.
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:33 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Except, like most everything else, that is another false narrative created by the far right and does not, in fact, express reality.
How do you reconcile that with left / liberals saying the same thing? This is not a "false narrative creative by the far right", this is the reality of the situation.

The sooner the Left stops acting like shrieking harpies, the better. They may think they're correct, but their actions, as a whole, are so caustic and abrasive as to ward off those even slightly sympathetic to their cause. It's why you get situations like Evergreen State and Middlebury College: they think that their position is obviously correct, so it justifies their atrocious actions and behavior, while getting passes from the media. Or, openly assaulting people because they offend you. Because clearly violence is A-OK when you have the "right" ideology.

It's a trend I see more and more. Don't like what someone has to say? Call them a Nazi (or, excuse me, "alt-right" is the new buzzword for deplorables) and no-platform them. Go after their job. After all, it's for the greater good, right?

The Left doesn't want to talk or discuss ideas with those who disagree - they want to lecture and preach, and, if that fails, publicly shame them.
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Old 10th August 2017, 07:34 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Those are some issues -- and of high concern to Democratic voters. Convincing the other half the country to care about them over and above their own concerns is a problem of conceit on your part more than lack of communication skill.
Phil Ochs wrote and sang a song called "Love me, I'm a Liberal" about 50 years ago. Easy to find on YouTube if you're curious. Dated but still somewhat pertinent.

In the intro, he defines a liberal as someone who is 10 to the left of center in good times, and 10 to the right of center when it affects them personally.

Just popped into my mind from the above, is all.
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