ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 10th August 2017, 07:35 PM   #41
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,923
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Man, I'm about as far left as it gets, I feel no need to try and prove my street cred to you (another massive problem we have) , but you are about as far off the mark as you can get.

I see it all the time not because my friends and loved ones are all straight white guys, but the opposite. I see people make a personality of coming across as demanding and condescending , all the whIle talking dramatic offense at anyone else that doesn't pass a sniff test doing the same.

If this wasnt making people hate us, I wouldn't care, but it is. We act as if we will not have to make any changes in a future where everyone gets along, and so help anyone that suggests otherwise, and we act like we get this right because people like us experienced violence and bias the likes of which the vast majority of us never will.

But please keep telling yourself it's nothing but far right idiots that see this. Because of course the way for people to get along is for every person to be as much of an anti social tool as possible. And obviously ,queer folks, brown folks, and every other minority , they don't need support, better to make the major of a country hate them than find some middle ground.
Could you put this into more concrete actions that might address the problem as you see it?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 07:36 PM   #42
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,923
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
How do you reconcile that with left / liberals saying the same thing? This is not a "false narrative creative by the far right", this is the reality of the situation.

The sooner the Left stops acting like shrieking harpies, the better. They may think they're correct, but their actions, as a whole, are so caustic and abrasive as to ward off those even slightly sympathetic to their cause. It's why you get situations like Evergreen State and Middlebury College: they think that their position is obviously correct, so it justifies their atrocious actions and behavior, while getting passes from the media. Or, openly assaulting people because they offend you. Because clearly violence is A-OK when you have the "right" ideology.

It's a trend I see more and more. Don't like what someone has to say? Call them a Nazi (or, excuse me, "alt-right" is the new buzzword for deplorables) and no-platform them. Go after their job. After all, it's for the greater good, right?

The Left doesn't want to talk or discuss ideas with those who disagree - they want to lecture and preach, and, if that fails, publicly shame them.
Bitching about the side you don't like does not address the thread topic. It does, however, show how well the right wing messaging works.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 07:42 PM   #43
Fast Eddie B
Illuminator
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 4,358
Originally Posted by Travis View Post

I mean let us come up with better slogans for our side.
For sure.

Could anything be more vapid and pointless than "I'm With Her"?
__________________
"God is not a magician" - Pope Francis

"I doubt that!" - James Randi
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 07:55 PM   #44
Vermonter
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,017
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Bitching about the side you don't like does not address the thread topic. It does, however, show how well the right wing messaging works.
Not at all. I get most of my news from left-leaning sources. Why do you believe that anything critical of the radical Left is right-wing? There are lots of liberals (including myself) that vehemently oppose the radical Left because it makes everyone else on the Left look bad.

The Left does need better marketing, and disavowing cancerous aspects is the first step to that.
__________________
A question is asked of a scientist and a woo peddler: "Why does this do that?"
The scientist responds, "I don't know, let's find out," and begins observing.
The woo peddler responds, "It must be mystical in nature," and declares victory.
Vermonter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 08:13 PM   #45
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,923
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
Not at all. I get most of my news from left-leaning sources. Why do you believe that anything critical of the radical Left is right-wing? There are lots of liberals (including myself) that vehemently oppose the radical Left because it makes everyone else on the Left look bad.

The Left does need better marketing, and disavowing cancerous aspects is the first step to that.
Re the highlighted, that is a straw man.

You are assuming the right wing messaging is only being absorbed by the right wing. That's not how it works. Whether you believe yourself to be the moderate left or whether you are pretending not to be right wing isn't relevant. What is relevant is you are repeating the right wing messaging and accepting it as fact/truth.

Human nature and standard deviation stats tell us whomever you think the "radical Left" is has to be a small minority. You post as if it is a much larger group than that.

Coincidentally the right wing markets the message that 'libruls' are all things radical left as you label it. Your comments are inconsistent with not-radical left unless you bought the right wing messaging.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 10th August 2017 at 08:15 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 08:19 PM   #46
Shadowdweller
Muse
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 570
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Actually, the problem is much deeper than that. It's about fact vs. fantasy; about a culture that is interested in finding and understanding truth; and a culture that is interested in supporting and enforcing a worldview that sees fact and fantasy as equally valid explanations of the world, and reality merely a matter of personal preference rather than objective fact.

The problem isn't that Democrats need better marketing, the problem is that Democrats are much more invested in the objective fact model of reality, the GOP is more heavily invested in the personal fantasy model of reality, and the personal fantasy model is much more popular in very large parts of the US.
Yes. Furthermore, I would hazard a guess that most liberals would consider marketing to be "evil" or immoral to some extent.
Shadowdweller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 08:43 PM   #47
Vermonter
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,017
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Re the highlighted, that is a straw man.

You are assuming the right wing messaging is only being absorbed by the right wing. That's not how it works. Whether you believe yourself to be the moderate left or whether you are pretending not to be right wing isn't relevant. What is relevant is you are repeating the right wing messaging and accepting it as fact/truth.

Human nature and standard deviation stats tell us whomever you think the "radical Left" is has to be a small minority. You post as if it is a much larger group than that.

Coincidentally the right wing markets the message that 'libruls' are all things radical left as you label it. Your comments are inconsistent with not-radical left unless you bought the right wing messaging.
It's not whether I believe I'm one thing or another. My actions and stances place me in the moderate left, questioning that won't change anything. The considerable damage caused in colleges refute the claim that it's a "small minority". My point is that the radical left is having an increasingly detrimental effect on the moderates, partly because the left, as a whole, can't seem to divorce itself from toxic elements. It's a problem on the right as well, just now at a lesser extent.

The current marketing strategy of "listen to us or we'll publicly shame you" isn't working, particularly with social issues. The increased friction against climate change science is troubling, and one that needs to be re-evaluated to determine why the message is being discarded, then change the strategy. There will always be people whose opinions can never be changed, however, the fact that so many fence-sitters are shifting means something isn't getting through.
__________________
A question is asked of a scientist and a woo peddler: "Why does this do that?"
The scientist responds, "I don't know, let's find out," and begins observing.
The woo peddler responds, "It must be mystical in nature," and declares victory.
Vermonter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 09:08 PM   #48
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 22,355
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Could anything be more vapid and pointless than "I'm With Her"?
So much more direct and inspiring is "We're against them". In my opinion Clinton's big mistake was backing-off on the deplorables line.

For the present the Democratic Party's strategy surely has to be to identify any failures of the AHA with the current government, not the last one. Which surely is not beyond the wit of man.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 09:20 PM   #49
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 22,927
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
How do you reconcile that with left / liberals saying the same thing? This is not a "false narrative creative by the far right", this is the reality of the situation.

The sooner the Left stops acting like shrieking harpies, the better. They may think they're correct, but their actions, as a whole, are so caustic and abrasive as to ward off those even slightly sympathetic to their cause. It's why you get situations like Evergreen State and Middlebury College: they think that their position is obviously correct, so it justifies their atrocious actions and behavior, while getting passes from the media. Or, openly assaulting people because they offend you. Because clearly violence is A-OK when you have the "right" ideology.

It's a trend I see more and more. Don't like what someone has to say? Call them a Nazi (or, excuse me, "alt-right" is the new buzzword for deplorables) and no-platform them. Go after their job. After all, it's for the greater good, right?

The Left doesn't want to talk or discuss ideas with those who disagree - they want to lecture and preach, and, if that fails, publicly shame them.
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
It's not whether I believe I'm one thing or another. My actions and stances place me in the moderate left, questioning that won't change anything. The considerable damage caused in colleges refute the claim that it's a "small minority". My point is that the radical left is having an increasingly detrimental effect on the moderates, partly because the left, as a whole, can't seem to divorce itself from toxic elements. It's a problem on the right as well, just now at a lesser extent.

The current marketing strategy of "listen to us or we'll publicly shame you" isn't working, particularly with social issues. The increased friction against climate change science is troubling, and one that needs to be re-evaluated to determine why the message is being discarded, then change the strategy. There will always be people whose opinions can never be changed, however, the fact that so many fence-sitters are shifting means something isn't getting through.
Care to quantify exactly what it is you are so agitated about? Are you sure they are the actions of Liberals and not right wing trolls stirring crap up?
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 09:31 PM   #50
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,923
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
It's not whether I believe I'm one thing or another. My actions and stances place me in the moderate left, questioning that won't change anything. The considerable damage caused in colleges refute the claim that it's a "small minority". My point is that the radical left is having an increasingly detrimental effect on the moderates, partly because the left, as a whole, can't seem to divorce itself from toxic elements. It's a problem on the right as well, just now at a lesser extent.

The current marketing strategy of "listen to us or we'll publicly shame you" isn't working, particularly with social issues. The increased friction against climate change science is troubling, and one that needs to be re-evaluated to determine why the message is being discarded, then change the strategy. There will always be people whose opinions can never be changed, however, the fact that so many fence-sitters are shifting means something isn't getting through.
It's hard to get past your emotional issues here to discuss the thread topic.

You hate left wing college snowflakes?

What friction against climate change science, deniers or what, Al Gore?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 09:39 PM   #51
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,923
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
So much more direct and inspiring is "We're against them". In my opinion Clinton's big mistake was backing-off on the deplorables line.

For the present the Democratic Party's strategy surely has to be to identify any failures of the AHA with the current government, not the last one. Which surely is not beyond the wit of man.
The current Democratic Party Chair, Tom Perez, is a total communication failure. I don't know what qualities got him voted in, but he's a big mistake waiting to become an even bigger disaster.

I tried working with my local Democratic Party district, the old guard was entrenched and it explained a lot of the problem. They've added "LD" to all the party organizations' names, I believe standing for Liberal Democrat. Color me thoroughly unimpressed (or confused if it means something else).
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 09:53 PM   #52
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 35,992
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
It's not whether I believe I'm one thing or another. My actions and stances place me in the moderate left, questioning that won't change anything. The considerable damage caused in colleges refute the claim that it's a "small minority". My point is that the radical left is having an increasingly detrimental effect on the moderates, partly because the left, as a whole, can't seem to divorce itself from toxic elements. It's a problem on the right as well, just now at a lesser extent.

The current marketing strategy of "listen to us or we'll publicly shame you" isn't working, particularly with social issues. The increased friction against climate change science is troubling, and one that needs to be re-evaluated to determine why the message is being discarded, then change the strategy. There will always be people whose opinions can never be changed, however, the fact that so many fence-sitters are shifting means something isn't getting through.
I guess it isn't rising time in Europe yet. Surely at least ten of them are going to note that the moderate left in America is what those of us in the rest of the world call "conservatives".
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele
"Chicken **** Poster!"
Help! We're being attacked by sea lions!
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 10:33 PM   #53
Tony
Penultimate Amazing
 
Tony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 15,137
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Bitching about the side you don't like does not address the thread topic. It does, however, show how well the right wing messaging works.
I am far left on a host of issues, but I hated the kooky SJW regressive left before I read about the phenomenon through any right wing media.

My view is entirely based on my observations of how they act and the opinions they express, not because of some nebulous "right wing messaging".

Ditching the identity politics / appeals to racism would go a long way to rehabilitate the image of the left. As it is now, they are a laughing stock that consistently make themselves easy targets for offensivness and ridicule.
__________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

Last edited by Tony; 10th August 2017 at 10:46 PM.
Tony is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 11:05 PM   #54
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,207
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
So much more direct and inspiring is "We're against them". In my opinion Clinton's big mistake was backing-off on the deplorables line.
A 'mistake' for Clinton, but good overall. As president, Trump is doing is doing more damage to Republicans than Hillary ever could have.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 11:38 PM   #55
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,923
Originally Posted by Tony View Post
I am far left on a host of issues, but I hated the kooky SJW regressive left before I read about the phenomenon through any right wing media.

My view is entirely based on my observations of how they act and the opinions they express, not because of some nebulous "right wing messaging".

Ditching the identity politics / appeals to racism would go a long way to rehabilitate the image of the left. As it is now, they are a laughing stock that consistently make themselves easy targets for offensivness and ridicule.
There are always going to be right and left wing kooks. On the right, the kooks go all the way to the top. On the left they are still the fringe but the right wing marketing sells both false equivalence and an exaggeration of the left wing kooks.

Take for example David Horowitz's one man show fighting liberal professor windmills on college campuses.
Quote:
Today wealthy donors back groups like the Intercollegiate Studies Institute: the Bradley Foundation, the Scaife family foundations and the Koch brothers’ DonorsTrust ( for donors who don’t want to go public) that funnel money to, among others, the David Horowitz Freedom Center (whose “academic bill of rights” would monitor professors’ syllabuses for “balance”) and Campus Watch, which tracks comments on the Middle East.
Take the latest brouhaha over protesting Milo whats-his-face talks. The guy promoted the controversy himself, it sells books. Most of the protests merely occurred outside the venue. Only a couple ended up being cancelled, also increasing book sales.

But look at how The Guardian described him: The University of California, Berkeley has cancelled a speech by rightwing internet troll Milo Yiannopoulos after thousands of students gathered in protest and a group of black-clad anti-fascist activists shot fireworks at the speech venue.
Quote:
Last week, university chancellor Nicholas Dirks defended Yiannopoulos’s right to speak on campus, though he described the Breitbart editor as “a troll and provocateur who uses odious behavior in parts to ‘entertain’, but also to deflect any serious engagement with ideas” whose “act [is] at odds with the values of this campus”.

Dirks also addressed Yiannopoulos’s tendency to single out individual students on stage – such as a transgender student at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee – for mockery and abuse, which the chancellor said does “not justify prior restraint on his freedom of expression”.
Since when is that kind of crap free speech? It's one thing to let Fred Phelps hold up signs on street corners; it's quite another to invite him on campus to promote 'free speech' and an exchange of ideas.

Were they protesting Milo's political opinion? Hell no, they were protesting his hate speech. There's a huge difference. People protest the KKK rallies, they protest white nationalists who wear brown shirts adorned with swastikas. Since when did those protestors become intolerant snowflakes?

Please take the time to read the article to see how the supposed snowflake problem has been marketed by the right wing:
Quote:
But it isn’t the protests per se that damaged open inquiry and expression, but the frenzied way they have been portrayed by the right. The video that so angered Mr. Johnston was shot by Greg Lukianoff, president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, which the Daily Caller then reposted under a headline, “Meet the Privileged Yale Student Who Shrieked at Her Professor,” with photos of her and her parents’ suburban Connecticut home.

What the video didn’t show were the hundreds of white students having their first frank conversations about race with minority classmates. A thousand students of all colors joined a vibrant campus “march of resilience” — I know, because I was on campus last fall. Another thousand convened in the chapel to hear classmates and professors speak from their deepest humanity, without malevolence or duplicity. Free speech and open inquiry are alive and well on campus.

But today’s conservative “free speech” campaign doesn’t want you to know that. What motivates it is not the defense of free speech, but an ideology that condemns “politically correct” activists and administrators and dubiously recommends “free markets” as the best guarantors of such rights. “Our colleges and universities, though lavishly funded and granted every perquisite which a dynamic capitalist economy can offer, have become factories for the manufacture of intellectual and moral conformity,” thundered Roger Kimball, board chairman of Yale’s Buckley Program, at a black-tie dinner that the program sponsored last year in New York.
This is what I mean by effectively marketing the right wing message and the left's failure to counter it.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 10th August 2017 at 11:40 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2017, 11:51 PM   #56
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,207
Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Ditching the identity politics / appeals to racism would go a long way to rehabilitate the image of the left. As it is now, they are a laughing stock that consistently make themselves easy targets for offensivness and ridicule.
The problem with that statement is that anyone who doesn't blindly support whatever far-right policies are currently in vogue is branded 'the left'.

RINO Doesn’t Mean Anything Any More
Quote:
Heritage Action, the political advocacy wing of the staunchly conservative Heritage Foundation, puts out the most well-known and arguably most trusted conservative scorecard. The average Senate Republican only scores a 59 percent on the Heritage Action scorecard, so senators whose lifetime scores ascend into the 90s occupy rarified conservative air.
Or do they?
Quote:
Sen. Marco Rubio, the most recent presidential candidate to whom the RINO label has been attached, scored a 94 percent rating from Heritage Action, 98 percent from Americans for Prosperity, 98 percent from the American Conservative Union, 93 percent from Club for Growth, 100 percent from National Right to Life, and received an “A” rating from the NRA.
It doesn't matter how far right you think you are, you may still find yourself to the left of someone. And then you are 'the left' in their minds - no matter how good your 'scorecard'.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 12:55 AM   #57
Vermonter
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,017
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's hard to get past your emotional issues here to discuss the thread topic.

You hate left wing college snowflakes?

What friction against climate change science, deniers or what, Al Gore?
Disregarding the personal attack there, yes, I dislike college snowflakes and it demonstrates how vile people can be when they believe they have the ideological upper hand. I'm not a fan of students shutting down campus because they disagree with an email from a professor, for instance, or assaulting professors and shutting down a conference they dislike. This directly contributes to the bad PR experienced by the left in general. Dismissing it as right-wing commentary only demonstrates my point about discussing issues.

As for climate change science, I refer to the trend of anti-CCS gaining traction. I believe it may be related to the "preaching" behavior mentioned before. For one reason or another, conservatives and fence-sitters aren't buying in. So tactics need to be changed.
__________________
A question is asked of a scientist and a woo peddler: "Why does this do that?"
The scientist responds, "I don't know, let's find out," and begins observing.
The woo peddler responds, "It must be mystical in nature," and declares victory.
Vermonter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 12:59 AM   #58
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 5,492
The American Dream is unsustainable as a general solution, as there must be those who do better, and others worse. The ticket to a bearable level self-esteem for losers in the bling parade is magical thinking. Reality, on the other hand, crushes by weight of fact. The wealthy know this, and they have been fashioning it into the GOP platform for decades. What reasonable people need to learn is how to use propaganda effectively in order to take ownership of the narrative.

I think the starting point is glass jars and colored marbles to illustrate some basic economics in simple advertising, followed by easy pie or bar charts showing where taxes go and what for. Be sure to include a large jar showing the illegal offshore monies otherwise meant for taxes. Then point fingers and identify the criminals as financiers, largely, of the GOP; pals with drug dealers, human traffickers, and animal torturing thugs. Call out corporate brands, too, which would create a mighty incentive to start acting ethically.

Make sure Bubba knows who, in dollars and cents, is truly jerking him off, and who transfers money from Blue states to help him out. Channel the rage!
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion. Spends that time videogaming.

Last edited by Hlafordlaes; 11th August 2017 at 01:00 AM.
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 01:18 AM   #59
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,923
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
Disregarding the personal attack there, yes, I dislike college snowflakes and it demonstrates how vile people can be when they believe they have the ideological upper hand. I'm not a fan of students shutting down campus because they disagree with an email from a professor, for instance, or assaulting professors and shutting down a conference they dislike. This directly contributes to the bad PR experienced by the left in general. Dismissing it as right-wing commentary only demonstrates my point about discussing issues.

As for climate change science, I refer to the trend of anti-CCS gaining traction. I believe it may be related to the "preaching" behavior mentioned before. For one reason or another, conservatives and fence-sitters aren't buying in. So tactics need to be changed.
I'm not attacking you, I'm trying to get past whatever it is you are so pissed about so we can discuss the issues.

But from your first paragraph, you ignored my reply that the snowflakes are few and far between and their existence has been exploited and exaggerated by the right wing marketing machine.

As for climate change, there has been a lot of progress. There are fewer right wing leaders professing the denial lie. I think Trump's brought quite a few of the deniers out of the woodwork.

I agree with you that 'preaching' is ineffective marketing.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 01:23 AM   #60
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,923
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
The American Dream is unsustainable as a general solution, as there must be those who do better, and others worse.
Since when is the American Dream supposed to mean everyone makes it? The idea is everyone has the opportunity, not that they all make it.

The growth of income inequality, however, is a serious problem and it's ripe for better framing from the left.

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
The ticket to a bearable level self-esteem for losers in the bling parade is magical thinking. Reality, on the other hand, crushes by weight of fact. The wealthy know this, and they have been fashioning it into the GOP platform for decades. What reasonable people need to learn is how to use propaganda effectively in order to take ownership of the narrative.
I agree. For starters we need to counter the dishonest framing: redistributing the wealth.

No, it is the workers getting their fair share of their own productivity.

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I think the starting point is glass jars and colored marbles to illustrate some basic economics in simple advertising, followed by easy pie or bar charts showing where taxes go and what for. Be sure to include a large jar showing the illegal offshore monies otherwise meant for taxes. Then point fingers and identify the criminals as financiers, largely, of the GOP; pals with drug dealers, human traffickers, and animal torturing thugs. Call out corporate brands, too, which would create a mighty incentive to start acting ethically.

Make sure Bubba knows who, in dollars and cents, is truly jerking him off, and who transfers money from Blue states to help him out. Channel the rage!
I like these ideas.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 02:30 AM   #61
Vermonter
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,017
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm not attacking you, I'm trying to get past whatever it is you are so pissed about so we can discuss the issues.

But from your first paragraph, you ignored my reply that the snowflakes are few and far between and their existence has been exploited and exaggerated by the right wing marketing machine.

As for climate change, there has been a lot of progress. There are fewer right wing leaders professing the denial lie. I think Trump's brought quite a few of the deniers out of the woodwork.

I agree with you that 'preaching' is ineffective marketing.
You mistake my strong wording with being "pissed" or anger. I'm saying that there is an issue, and you're dismissing it. If snowflakes are few and far between, then why did events like Berkeley, Middlebury, and Evergreen State happen this year alone? Acting like this can't possibly be a factor doesn't help.

It's not as if these events are fake news or that they're only brought up by the right. Liberals bring up these issues too, but then they're immediately lumped in with being alt-right or that they're actually conservatives who are just lying. Stating that these are only right-wing talking points, and therefore, dismissing them, is part of the problem.

I'm saying that there are issues that directly impact the marketability of the Left and what the Left, in general, stands for. PR and marketing can only go so far to promote the platform when the platform itself has flaws that work against it. Ignoring the screeching harpies and pretending that no one listens to them doesn't work.
__________________
A question is asked of a scientist and a woo peddler: "Why does this do that?"
The scientist responds, "I don't know, let's find out," and begins observing.
The woo peddler responds, "It must be mystical in nature," and declares victory.
Vermonter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 03:58 AM   #62
Fast Eddie B
Illuminator
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 4,358
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
So much more direct and inspiring is "We're against them". In my opinion Clinton's big mistake was backing-off on the deplorables line.
Maybe. I think you're wrong, but that's just an opinion as well.

She seemed trapped in a quandary - attacking Trump just galvanized some of her opposition. Like a "badge of honor" to be attacked by "someone like her".

This is where I'll admit some level of sexism crept in. Trump could viciously attack virtually everyone, and it made him seem strong to many. If Clinton responded in kind, she could be viewed as shrewish and b*tchy. Though I think a different woman might have fared better.
__________________
"God is not a magician" - Pope Francis

"I doubt that!" - James Randi
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 04:09 AM   #63
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,923
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
You mistake my strong wording with being "pissed" or anger.
Use whatever adjective you want. It's still making it difficult to discuss the issue with you.

Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
I'm saying that there is an issue, and you're dismissing it. If snowflakes are few and far between, then why did events like Berkeley, Middlebury, and Evergreen State happen this year alone? Acting like this can't possibly be a factor doesn't help.
I'm not dismissing it, I posted evidence and a discussion as to how it was indeed only a few instances and the right wing is marketing the narrative it's some big oppression of right wing views. I cited funding behind the marketing of the narrative.

You haven't addressed any of that, all you've done is repeat the marketed narrative without even considering who is behind the messaging.

Why did said events happen this year alone? Four events? Do you know how many college campuses there are in the US and how many of them had speakers?

Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
It's not as if these events are fake news or that they're only brought up by the right. Liberals bring up these issues too, but then they're immediately lumped in with being alt-right or that they're actually conservatives who are just lying. Stating that these are only right-wing talking points, and therefore, dismissing them, is part of the problem.
They are fake news in that the issues are distorted and exaggerated. And you bought the narrative hook line and sinker.

Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
I'm saying that there are issues that directly impact the marketability of the Left and what the Left, in general, stands for. PR and marketing can only go so far to promote the platform when the platform itself has flaws that work against it. Ignoring the screeching harpies and pretending that no one listens to them doesn't work.
I don't know what your last sentence means.

How about you look for a denominator for your 4 events. See how it looks when you take the news media hype away and look at the facts.

And yes, we're not doing anything to counter the false narrative that you bought. You demonstrate how effective the right wing marketing is.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 11th August 2017 at 04:11 AM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 04:16 AM   #64
Fast Eddie B
Illuminator
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 4,358
The more things change...

From the aforementioned Phil Ochs song, 50 years down the road:

"I read new republic and nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, i've memorized lerner and golden
I feel like i'm almost a jew
But when it comes to times like korea
There's no one more red, white and blue

So love me, love me, love me, i'm a liberal"
__________________
"God is not a magician" - Pope Francis

"I doubt that!" - James Randi
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 06:45 AM   #65
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
 
Travis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 22,927
If not for screencaptures from Tumblr I would honestly hardly even be aware of the extreme elements of the Left. It's not like they are getting elected and outlawing genders or something.

On the other hand the extreme Right is firmly in complete control. They have been elected to every high office there is and are firmly pushing through their agenda to turn America into a repressive Theocracy with pollution everywhere and healthcare for none.

So can we get some perspective?
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
Travis is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 07:15 AM   #66
Vermonter
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,017
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Use whatever adjective you want. It's still making it difficult to discuss the issue with you.

I'm not dismissing it, I posted evidence and a discussion as to how it was indeed only a few instances and the right wing is marketing the narrative it's some big oppression of right wing views. I cited funding behind the marketing of the narrative.

You haven't addressed any of that, all you've done is repeat the marketed narrative without even considering who is behind the messaging.

Why did said events happen this year alone? Four events? Do you know how many college campuses there are in the US and how many of them had speakers?

They are fake news in that the issues are distorted and exaggerated. And you bought the narrative hook line and sinker.

I don't know what your last sentence means.

How about you look for a denominator for your 4 events. See how it looks when you take the news media hype away and look at the facts.

And yes, we're not doing anything to counter the false narrative that you bought. You demonstrate how effective the right wing marketing is.
And there we go. Dismissing it because you consider it to be fake news. Thank you for proving my point.
__________________
A question is asked of a scientist and a woo peddler: "Why does this do that?"
The scientist responds, "I don't know, let's find out," and begins observing.
The woo peddler responds, "It must be mystical in nature," and declares victory.
Vermonter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 08:09 AM   #67
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,325
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Liberals have a whole lot of truth and science on their side. And yet conservative messaging keeps things all muddled.
.....
Interesting perspective here. His point is that liberals and progressives are generally oriented toward fair(er) outcomes, while conservatives focus on what they see as fair procedures.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.dd08289ce3d6
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 08:12 AM   #68
The_Animus
Master Poster
 
The_Animus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,548
We need to fix the issues preventing the democratic party from winning more elections!

Proceeds to ignore and dismiss most of said issues.

Let's just use the following as our new party slogan!

"Those last 100 bites of dirt didn't taste very good, maybe the next one will be better!"
__________________
Straw Man, Ad Hominem, Moving the Goalposts, and a massive post count are all good indicators that a poster is intellectually dishonest and not interested in real discussion.

Feeding trolls only makes them stronger, yet it is so hard to refrain.
The_Animus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 08:39 AM   #69
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Cymru
Posts: 21,981
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
A 'mistake' for Clinton, but good overall. As president, Trump is doing is doing more damage to Republicans than Hillary ever could have.
I'll believe that when I see it in actual election results.

So far, from a GOP perspective, President Trump has not (yet ?) damaged the GOP.

Who knows, if he manages to engineer a popular conventional war against North Korea he could become electoral gold
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 09:17 AM   #70
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 13,728
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I see it all the time not because my friends and loved ones are all straight white guys, but the opposite. I see people make a personality of coming
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
The sooner the Left stops acting like shrieking harpies, the better. They may think they're correct, but their actions, as a whole, are so caustic and abrasive as to ward off those even slightly sympathetic to their cause.

The left can be a bit obnoxious, anyone can. But the "shrieking harpy" type is a fringe of a fringe. In general, when the Left harps on something, it's because it needs to be harped on. Racism and sexism and anti-LGBT sentiment is rife throughout the nation, and for too long the mainstream left simply pretended it didn't exist, because that got in the way of pretending their utopian ideals were being realized. The reality has it a lot of people in the face, and a small number have overreacted a bit.

However...

This does not even remotely compare to the sheer volume and depth of shrieking that the religious right has been doing for the better part of half a century. Ever since Nixon, the "Moral Majority" and their ilk have made a profession, even a calling, of being offended by anything and everything. Pornography, profanity, violence, disrespect of public officials, music, children's television programs, atheism, liberal politics, welfare, and on and on and on. Entire organizations have been created whose sole purpose is to be loudly and obnoxiously offended by anything that isn't white, middle-to-upper-class, conservative, and Christian; and to fight against it in any and every way they can do so within the bounds of the law (and sometimes outside of it).

They have been loud, abusive, and even violent in a way that the left has almost never been able to match.

I'm not all that old, but I'm still old enough to clearly remember when desegregation was still being violently opposed by the religious right, when interracial marriage was only newly legalized nationwide, and still considered highly controversial. I've witnessed the rise of the Dominionist Evangelical movement, and it's goal of turning the US into a Christian theocracy.

The problem here is that the religious right has been frighteningly effective at controlling the public narrative for roughly half a century or more at this point, and have managed to steer it more and more to the conservative side, both socially and economically. "Liberals" who have valid, legitimate complaints are portrayed as "shrieking harpies" because they dare to speak their minds and call out abuses of the power that the religious right has worked so very hard to garner, no matter how legitimate their complaints and tactics. In many cases, it's the same tactics used by their conservative opponents; but when it's from the left, they're "totalitarians", they're "manufacturing outrage", they're "overreacting", they're "anti-Christian", they're "going to send us all to gay atheists re-education camps", they're "destroying American values"; while on the Right, they're "fighting for religious freedom", "fighting for family values", "fighting to make their families/communities safe from" whatever the threat-du-jour is.

A swing of the social pendulum to the left, toward openness and tolerance, served to force a lot of the racism and sexism and so on underground, but it was always there, it never went away. What we are seeing now in the "alt-right" movement is not something new, some reaction against the evul librul mind control, but the attitudes that were there all along feeling free to be more open and blatant about their worldview, no longer feeling constrained by social restrictions on marginalizing minorities, but open to express what was there all along.

And they have controlled the narrative for so long that the left has internalized great swaths of it, has internalized the characterization of any objection to being racially profiled, harassed, or murdered as "shrieking harpies", internalized the "post-racial" and "post-sexism" narrative of the right, and much of the mainstream left has become afraid to speak out, or in many cases even acknowledge, the deep-seated problems that still exist throughout our culture, for fear of being labelled extremists, and themselves engage in labeling those actually trying to bring some attention to the issues as "extremists" themselves.

Go back and read the article I posted earlier in the thread.

Again, yes, there are extremists on the left, they do act unreasonably, but as noted, they're a fringe of a fringe, despite the narrative painted by the right which tries to portray them as representative of the whole. They're not, but the left has still internalized that narrative. Out of fear of becoming like their opponents, the left has allowed their opponents an enormous leeway and power to control the tone of the debate.

But the problem isn't that the left does not understand the right, they do, far too well. The problem is that the right doesn't understand themselves, and the left is increasingly unwilling to confront that fact.

An Insider's View: The Dark Rigidity of Fundamentalist Rural America

Excerpt:
Quote:
I grew up in rural Christian white America. You’d be hard-pressed to find an area of the country with a higher percentage of Christians or whites. I spent most of the first 24 years of my life deeply embedded in this culture. I religiously (pun intended) attended their Christian services. I worked off and on on their rural farms. I dated their calico-skirted daughters. I camped, hunted and fished with their sons. I listened to their political rants at the local diner and truck stop. I winced at their racist/bigoted jokes and epithets that were said more out of ignorance than animosity. I have watched the town I grew up in go from a robust economy with well-kept homes and infrastructure to a struggling economy with shuttered businesses, dilapidated homes and a broken-down infrastructure over the past 30 years. The problem isn’t that I don’t understand these people. The problem is they don’t understand themselves or the reasons for their anger and frustration.

In deep-red America, the white Christian god is king, figuratively and literally. Religious fundamentalism has shaped most of their belief systems. Systems built on a fundamentalist framework are not conducive to introspection, questioning, learning, or change. When you have a belief system built on fundamentalism, it isn’t open to outside criticism, especially by anyone not a member of your tribe and in a position of power. The problem isn’t that coastal elites don’t understand rural Americans. The problem is that rural America doesn’t understand itself and will never listen to anyone outside its bubble. It doesn’t matter how “understanding” you are, how well you listen, what language you use…if you are viewed as an outsider, your views will be automatically discounted.

Having grown up in those fundamentalist communities, everything in this article is spot on with my own experiences.

Quote:
It's a trend I see more and more. Don't like what someone has to say? Call them a Nazi (or, excuse me, "alt-right" is the new buzzword for deplorables) and no-platform them. Go after their job. After all, it's for the greater good, right?

Care to provide examples? Because they only people I see getting no-platformed are those who are neo-nazis, alt-righters (do you know who actually coined that term?), and those calling for violent repression of minorities.

Quote:
The Left doesn't want to talk or discuss ideas with those who disagree - they want to lecture and preach, and, if that fails, publicly shame them.

And, again, that's a narrative created by the religious right, and internalized by the left. There was a time when the left was not afraid to speak out, not afraid to call a spade a bloody shovel, to call a racist a racist and a fascist a fascist. Calls to understand those whose worldview is one of marginalization or elimination of anyone who disagrees with them is not helpful, nor does it convince anyone within that narrative that they're wrong, all it does is weaken the left and create self-defeating mindsets where they're incapable of forming an effective opposition based on clear and solid principles. They've fetishized an extremist form of tolerance for so long, that they're incapable of recognizing when they're engaging in a form of cultural suicide by continuing to promote it.

Tolerance is not a moral precept

Excerpt:
Quote:
The title of this essay should disturb you. We have been brought up to believe that tolerating other people is one of the things you do if you’re a nice person — whether we learned this in kindergarten or from Biblical maxims like “love your neighbor as yourself” and “do unto others.”
But if you have ever tried to live your life this way, you will have seen it fail: “Why won’t you tolerate my intolerance?” This comes in all sorts of forms: accepting a person’s actively antisocial behavior because it’s just part of being an accepting group of friends; being told that prejudice against Nazis is the same as prejudice against Black people; watching people try to give “equal time” to a religious (or irreligious) group whose guiding principle is that everyone must join them or else.

Every one of these examples should raise your suspicions that something isn’t right; that tolerance be damned, one of these things is not like the other. But if you were raised with an intense version of “tolerance is a moral requirement,” then you may feel that this is a thought you should fight off.

It isn’t.

Tolerance is not a moral absolute; it is a peace treaty.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 09:40 AM   #71
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 13,728
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You are assuming the right wing messaging is only being absorbed by the right wing. That's not how it works. Whether you believe yourself to be the moderate left or whether you are pretending not to be right wing isn't relevant. What is relevant is you are repeating the right wing messaging and accepting it as fact/truth.

Human nature and standard deviation stats tell us whomever you think the "radical Left" is has to be a small minority. You post as if it is a much larger group than that.

Coincidentally the right wing markets the message that 'libruls' are all things radical left as you label it. Your comments are inconsistent with not-radical left unless you bought the right wing messaging.

This exactly. The right has controlled the narrative so deeply and for so long that the left has begun to view themselves the way the right has portrayed them. To believe that the radicals are in any way representative of the mainstream, and are not simply a tiny minority fringe with no significant power or influence.

Whilst, and and at the same time, engaging in the very same extremist "fer us or agin' us" mindset and rhetoric that they deride in the left.

People need to really sit back and listen to what the right is saying, without "tolerance" blinders and filters. Listen to what their leaders preach. listen to the conspiracy theories they spin.

When the right claims that leftists want to send them to homosexual atheist re-education camps, look very carefully at that claim, then look very carefully at the people making that claim. We do, in fact, see re-education camps in the US, but they're all on the right, not the left. Only the right calls them "conversion therapy", "troubled teen youth camps" ("troubled" generally being a euphemism for being LGBT, atheist, punk, liberal-leaning, etc.), "faith-based therapy/recovery/education initiatives", and various other euphemisms. That's why the religious right is wholeheartedly behind the homeschooling and charter school movements.

When the right complains about how "liberals" are trying to destroy religious freedom, that is exactly what they are doing. It's a dogwhistle for "make all education Christian and only Christian", for "allow Christians to discriminate against anyone they want", for "Christians should not be subject to the same rules as everyone else".

When the right complains about "violent" protest by "thugs", look at Operation Rescue, look at the bombings of abortion clinics and harassment and murder of doctors. Look at right-wing groups attacking peaceful left-wing protests. Look at the police responding to peaceful protests with tear gas and rubber bullets, creating the violence they claim to be defending against. Look at white people openly carrying firearms, often large ones, gathering in groups to intimidate politicians and minorities.

When the right complains about liberals destroying American democracy and committing voter fraud, look at who is closing polling stations in minority-dominated districts, who is passing voter-suppression laws, who is gerrymandering districts to break up minority and liberal-voting regions (often in bizarre violation of physical geography) to artificially enact conservative majorities.

When the right complains about liberals no-platforming and repressing conservatives, look at who is actually trying to create censorship in the schools, who is pushing for abstinence-only sex education, who is pushing for replacing science with creationism, who is suppressing protests by creating euphemistic "free-speech zones", who is pushing for censorship of liberal speakers and ideas from newspapers and television programs, who is calling for open violence against left-wing figures and protesters.

When the right complains about shadowy leftist conspiracies to control the country, look at who is really trying to write and enact legislation behind closed doors, out of the view of the public, who is actually secretly colluding with violent dictatorships and repressive authoritarian regimes.

Tune out the rhetoric and just look at actions.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

Last edited by luchog; 11th August 2017 at 09:43 AM.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 10:20 AM   #72
Civet
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 975
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Tune out the rhetoric and just look at actions.
Okay. Getting back to the marketing issue, how would you go about countering the situation that you describe?
Civet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 10:22 AM   #73
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 54,558
Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Make sure you include this bullet point in your fliers just like Hillary did!
Not being stupid, I do not identify myself to such idiots. And if I ever decide to tell some flat out I will be armed, but not visibly so. Silly me, I am conservative on weapons and their use.
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 10:23 AM   #74
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 13,728
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
And there we go. Dismissing it because you consider it to be fake news. Thank you for proving my point.



Did you even read the information she provided?

Do you know exactly what these events actually were, absent the right-wing narrative?

For starters, Berkeley and Evergreen State are almost unique among American universities. They are environments that have very little in common with any other university in the US, Evergreen in particular, which is itself a very small school, nowhere near the size of a school like Harvard or Yale, both well-known for their conservativism, indeed, most Ivy League schools are well-known for conservativism.

In any case, the incident at Evergreen was an anomaly, and again the result of a very small fringe group, and not supported by the student body at large.

The violence at Berkeley was not instigated by students. It was instigated by outsiders, some of it a tiny fringe of extreme leftists, more of it by right-wing Yiannopoulos and Trump supporters such as the Oath Keepers group.

Right wing activists have been at least as active in instigating violence at these rallies and protests; yet they have managed to control the narrative sufficiently to make it appear that they are the oppressed minority, simply defending themselves against violence from the left. And too many on the left have internalized that narrative instead of digging down to find the truth.

The incidents occurred, but the way those incidents have been spun is effectively "fake news". I used that term knowing that you're not actually going to read past it, but will immediately dismiss anything I have to say simply due to its existence.

Middlebury, like Berkeley, is the same mob of speakers, self-professed trolls like Yiannopoulos whose "speeches" are little more than personalized attacks on minority students, and calls for suppression and censorship. Same with Coulter. And at Middlebury, one of the speakers was Charles Murray, who the conservative media describe as "controversial". Murray is not "controversial", he is a blatant racist whose claim to fame is the profoundly racist bit of long-debunked pseudoscience known as The Bell Curve, and is a proponent of eugenics based on his pseudoscience. There is no reason that such people need to be given a platform to spread their nonsense at an institution of higher learning, and indeed, to do so is an insult to the students.

And, again, these are three examples out of literally thousands of universities in the US and millions of students.

These are isolated, fringe cases, which the right has inflated in their narrative to be typically of the left, which it holds solely responsible despite the actions of conservatives, and too much of the left has uncritically accepted this narrative.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 10:25 AM   #75
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 54,558
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
This exactly. The right has controlled the narrative so deeply and for so long that the left has begun to view themselves the way the right has portrayed them. To believe that the radicals are in any way representative of the mainstream, and are not simply a tiny minority fringe with no significant power or influence.

Whilst, and and at the same time, engaging in the very same extremist "fer us or agin' us" mindset and rhetoric that they deride in the left.

People need to really sit back and listen to what the right is saying, without "tolerance" blinders and filters. Listen to what their leaders preach. listen to the conspiracy theories they spin.

When the right claims that leftists want to send them to homosexual atheist re-education camps, look very carefully at that claim, then look very carefully at the people making that claim. We do, in fact, see re-education camps in the US, but they're all on the right, not the left. Only the right calls them "conversion therapy", "troubled teen youth camps" ("troubled" generally being a euphemism for being LGBT, atheist, punk, liberal-leaning, etc.), "faith-based therapy/recovery/education initiatives", and various other euphemisms. That's why the religious right is wholeheartedly behind the homeschooling and charter school movements.

When the right complains about how "liberals" are trying to destroy religious freedom, that is exactly what they are doing. It's a dogwhistle for "make all education Christian and only Christian", for "allow Christians to discriminate against anyone they want", for "Christians should not be subject to the same rules as everyone else".

When the right complains about "violent" protest by "thugs", look at Operation Rescue, look at the bombings of abortion clinics and harassment and murder of doctors. Look at right-wing groups attacking peaceful left-wing protests. Look at the police responding to peaceful protests with tear gas and rubber bullets, creating the violence they claim to be defending against. Look at white people openly carrying firearms, often large ones, gathering in groups to intimidate politicians and minorities.

When the right complains about liberals destroying American democracy and committing voter fraud, look at who is closing polling stations in minority-dominated districts, who is passing voter-suppression laws, who is gerrymandering districts to break up minority and liberal-voting regions (often in bizarre violation of physical geography) to artificially enact conservative majorities.

When the right complains about liberals no-platforming and repressing conservatives, look at who is actually trying to create censorship in the schools, who is pushing for abstinence-only sex education, who is pushing for replacing science with creationism, who is suppressing protests by creating euphemistic "free-speech zones", who is pushing for censorship of liberal speakers and ideas from newspapers and television programs, who is calling for open violence against left-wing figures and protesters.

When the right complains about shadowy leftist conspiracies to control the country, look at who is really trying to write and enact legislation behind closed doors, out of the view of the public, who is actually secretly colluding with violent dictatorships and repressive authoritarian regimes.

Tune out the rhetoric and just look at actions
.
Adjusted in appearance for importance and high accuracy in posting!!!!!!!
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 10:57 AM   #76
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
 
luchog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: The Emerald City
Posts: 13,728
Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Okay. Getting back to the marketing issue, how would you go about countering the situation that you describe?

The Democrats and mainstream left need to stop being so afraid of offending the religious right, and they need to stop being so accommodating of the policies of the right. Right now, the Dems are seen as being in bed with Corporate lobbyists the same as the GOP, and they are letting the religious right control the narrative.

One classic example is the "Obamacare" vs. Affordable Care Act visibility problem. The GOP were very effective at pushing a racist narrative of the ACA, and linking it to president Obama. When they talked about repealing "Obamacare", white American cheered, partly out of racism, and partly out of their acceptance of the GOP narrative that "Obamacare" took away many peoples' healthcare and was costing them far too much in taxes. When the legislation actually started to get written, many of those people who had cheered the repeal of "Obamacare" were surprised to learn that what they were actually cheering was the GOP taking away the ACA, and the healthcare they had gotten under the ACA. They were completely unaware that "Obamacare" referred to the ACA, under which many of them had gotten health insurance for the first time, and which they were dependent on.

That is the sort of thing that the left needs to fight against.

The left needs to formulate a solid, coherent, and stable platform built of clear and easily expressed principles, and stick by them. They need to better address the economic and healthcare concerns of working class people; while pushing for more inclusion of ethnic minorities, women, and LGBT peoples. They need to get back to a Roosevelt-era policy-platform, and visibly work hard to get big business money out of politics. They need to work much harder to opposed gerrymandering, and really push outreach to minority groups and neighborhoods to get out and vote.

Again, they need to stop letting the right control the narrative, they need to push back much harder, and do more to disavow the lunatic fringe and show that it is a lunatic fringe. They need to, not dumb down the message, but simplify it as much as possible and present it in a way that is easy to understand for people who do not have the education and background necessary to understand the complexities of the problem.

The problem with all this is that the left has a profoundly uphill battle at the best of times, since they cannot pander to fear and prejudice, cannot provide an easy-to-recognize-and-hate scapegoat, and cannot make simplistic, quick-fix promises for highly complicated issues the way that the right can and does, and therefore do not have an easy path to influence the way the right does.

They need to focus on education and grass-roots support among many different and diverse groups in order to overcome this narrative and their natural disadvantage.

Losing the anti-gun stance would help tremendously in this, as outdoor sportsmen groups are natural allies in the fight to defend and preserve the environment, yet their anti-firearm stance has driven those groups into the arms of the right, who are working to eliminate all protections on the environment. But on other principles -- eg. multiculturalism, women's rights and health, minimum wage, universal healthcare -- they need to stand firm.
__________________
"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others." -- Douglas Adams
"The absence of evidence might indeed not be evidence of absence, but it's a pretty good start." -- PhantomWolf
"Let's see the buggers figure that one out." - John Lennon

Last edited by luchog; 11th August 2017 at 10:59 AM.
luchog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 11:53 AM   #77
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,923
Originally Posted by Vermonter View Post
And there we go. Dismissing it because you consider it to be fake news. Thank you for proving my point.
Obvious dodge in lieu of addressing the small scale of the problem involved.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 12:00 PM   #78
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,207
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
So far, from a GOP perspective, President Trump has not (yet ?) damaged the GOP.
That's the beauty of it - by the time they realize it will be too late.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Infected zombie ant.jpg (24.7 KB, 2 views)
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 12:03 PM   #79
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,923
Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Okay. Getting back to the marketing issue, how would you go about countering the situation that you describe?
Step one: hire some expertise!
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th August 2017, 01:07 PM   #80
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,923
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The Democrats and mainstream left need to stop being so afraid of offending the religious right, and they need to stop being so accommodating of the policies of the right. Right now, the Dems are seen as being in bed with Corporate lobbyists the same as the GOP, and they are letting the religious right control the narrative.

One classic example is the "Obamacare" vs. Affordable Care Act visibility problem. The GOP were very effective at pushing a racist narrative of the ACA, and linking it to president Obama. When they talked about repealing "Obamacare", white American cheered, partly out of racism, and partly out of their acceptance of the GOP narrative that "Obamacare" took away many peoples' healthcare and was costing them far too much in taxes. When the legislation actually started to get written, many of those people who had cheered the repeal of "Obamacare" were surprised to learn that what they were actually cheering was the GOP taking away the ACA, and the healthcare they had gotten under the ACA. They were completely unaware that "Obamacare" referred to the ACA, under which many of them had gotten health insurance for the first time, and which they were dependent on.

That is the sort of thing that the left needs to fight against.

The left needs to formulate a solid, coherent, and stable platform built of clear and easily expressed principles, and stick by them. They need to better address the economic and healthcare concerns of working class people; while pushing for more inclusion of ethnic minorities, women, and LGBT peoples. They need to get back to a Roosevelt-era policy-platform, and visibly work hard to get big business money out of politics. They need to work much harder to opposed gerrymandering, and really push outreach to minority groups and neighborhoods to get out and vote.

Again, they need to stop letting the right control the narrative, they need to push back much harder, and do more to disavow the lunatic fringe and show that it is a lunatic fringe. They need to, not dumb down the message, but simplify it as much as possible and present it in a way that is easy to understand for people who do not have the education and background necessary to understand the complexities of the problem.

The problem with all this is that the left has a profoundly uphill battle at the best of times, since they cannot pander to fear and prejudice, cannot provide an easy-to-recognize-and-hate scapegoat, and cannot make simplistic, quick-fix promises for highly complicated issues the way that the right can and does, and therefore do not have an easy path to influence the way the right does.

They need to focus on education and grass-roots support among many different and diverse groups in order to overcome this narrative and their natural disadvantage.

Losing the anti-gun stance would help tremendously in this, as outdoor sportsmen groups are natural allies in the fight to defend and preserve the environment, yet their anti-firearm stance has driven those groups into the arms of the right, who are working to eliminate all protections on the environment. But on other principles -- eg. multiculturalism, women's rights and health, minimum wage, universal healthcare -- they need to stand firm.
Step two, craft messages that change the narrative. These are just examples.

For Evangelical climate change deniers: God made humans stewards of the Earth.

For the gun lobby, expose the profiteering behind the NRA. It won't get the hard core but it might convince people more on the fence.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:40 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.