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Old 11th August 2017, 05:11 PM   #81
Travis
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
An Insider's View: The Dark Rigidity of Fundamentalist Rural America

Excerpt:



Having grown up in those fundamentalist communities, everything in this article is spot on with my own experiences.
Living as I currently do in superconservative Rural America I can vouch for that article's validity too. Liberals have a hard road ahead because we are trying to get a message to people that don't want any message other than the one that confirms their already held belief.

The glimmer of hope is that many are becoming disillusioned about how no matter what happens their economic situation does not improve. For a long time they have blamed others for this. Obama and Liberals in some sort of anti-small town conspiracy held sway for a long time. But now Republicans are completely in control so you have to wonder just how long they will tolerate shuttered stores and closing factories when they can't really blame the Democrats anymore. I'm sure many will still try but surely some will defect and the question is will it be enough to sway elections?

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Losing the anti-gun stance would help tremendously in this, as outdoor sportsmen groups are natural allies in the fight to defend and preserve the environment, yet their anti-firearm stance has driven those groups into the arms of the right, who are working to eliminate all protections on the environment. But on other principles -- eg. multiculturalism, women's rights and health, minimum wage, universal healthcare -- they need to stand firm.
Huh, most of the hunters I know hate environmentalism. In fact they hate the very existence of National Forests which they see as holding them back from just hunting as much as they want. Keep in mind these guys just want trophy heads to mount. They only haul out the rest of the carcass because they have to. Without such rules they freely admit they'd just cut off heads and leave the rest there to rot. And whenever they can get away with it they do leave huge unholy messes in the woods.

When I point out private ownership of the woods might mean no hunting at all they get very agitated and out come insults.
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Old 11th August 2017, 05:57 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Living as I currently do in superconservative Rural America I can vouch for that article's validity too. Liberals have a hard road ahead because we are trying to get a message to people that don't want any message other than the one that confirms their already held belief.

The glimmer of hope is that many are becoming disillusioned about how no matter what happens their economic situation does not improve. For a long time they have blamed others for this. Obama and Liberals in some sort of anti-small town conspiracy held sway for a long time. But now Republicans are completely in control so you have to wonder just how long they will tolerate shuttered stores and closing factories when they can't really blame the Democrats anymore. I'm sure many will still try but surely some will defect and the question is will it be enough to sway elections?



Huh, most of the hunters I know hate environmentalism. In fact they hate the very existence of National Forests which they see as holding them back from just hunting as much as they want. Keep in mind these guys just want trophy heads to mount. They only haul out the rest of the carcass because they have to. Without such rules they freely admit they'd just cut off heads and leave the rest there to rot. And whenever they can get away with it they do leave huge unholy messes in the woods.

When I point out private ownership of the woods might mean no hunting at all they get very agitated and out come insults.
Dude I kind of take your observations on people with a grain of salt. It always goes "well I hang out with *insert group being discussed here* but *insert worst possible actions and mindsets here. ".

I know plenty of hunters as well, and either you are exaggerating to make a point or need to expand your social circle to include people who are not walking examples of how not to act. The hunters I know think nothing like those that you do.
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Old 11th August 2017, 06:02 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Huh, most of the hunters I know hate environmentalism. In fact they hate the very existence of National Forests which they see as holding them back from just hunting as much as they want. Keep in mind these guys just want trophy heads to mount. They only haul out the rest of the carcass because they have to. Without such rules they freely admit they'd just cut off heads and leave the rest there to rot. And whenever they can get away with it they do leave huge unholy messes in the woods.

That hasn't been my experience, and trophy hunters are a very small minority of hunters. But their animosity toward environmentalists is part and parcel of allowing the right to control the narrative, cue to the left's inflexible anti-gun and anti-hunting stance.

Many organizations are actually supportive of some environmental regulations, and would be natural allies if the left could let go of its non-essential rhetoric and meet them halfway.
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Old 11th August 2017, 06:08 PM   #84
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In my experience, both sadhatter and luchog are right.

Both happen, both are a problem, both need addressing. This isn't an either/or situation.

tl;dr False Dichotomy
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Old 11th August 2017, 07:07 PM   #85
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It's the economy, Stupid.

That's why 14% of LGBT voted for the Republican Machine, along with the blue collar Americans. Hmm, I bet 14% of LGBT ARE blue collar.

Meantime, Hillary was still "think of the children"-ing. When their Daddy's need jobs.

Nah, the differences is not Fantasy vs Fact, it's Utility vs Dream.
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Old 11th August 2017, 07:09 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Dude I kind of take your observations on people with a grain of salt. It always goes "well I hang out with *insert group being discussed here* but *insert worst possible actions and mindsets here. ".

I know plenty of hunters as well, and either you are exaggerating to make a point or need to expand your social circle to include people who are not walking examples of how not to act. The hunters I know think nothing like those that you do.
I seek out the worst people. Because it gives me more to hate and talk about.
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Old 11th August 2017, 07:10 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Huh, most of the hunters I know hate environmentalism. In fact they hate the very existence of National Forests which they see as holding them back from just hunting as much as they want. Keep in mind these guys just want trophy heads to mount. They only haul out the rest of the carcass because they have to. Without such rules they freely admit they'd just cut off heads and leave the rest there to rot. And whenever they can get away with it they do leave huge unholy messes in the woods.

When I point out private ownership of the woods might mean no hunting at all they get very agitated and out come insults.
I've spent my life around outdoorspersons and met very few of these caricatures of yours.
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Old 11th August 2017, 07:34 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
It's the economy, Stupid.

That's why 14% of LGBT voted for the Republican Machine, along with the blue collar Americans. Hmm, I bet 14% of LGBT ARE blue collar.

No, in fact, the overwhelming majority of LGBTs who support the GOP are upper-middle-class yuppies -- known as the Log Cabin Republicans -- who are part of the GOP because they put wealth over LGBT rights; and the rest are typically part of the anarcho-capitalist/techno-libertarian fringe who went in large part to Trump regardless of sexual orientation, because, again, money.

There is also a substantial problem with racism and xenophobia in the LGBT community that is only recently starting to come to light and get addressed, which is also a strong motivator for the Log Cabin crowd and their like.
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Old 11th August 2017, 08:14 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I've spent my life around outdoorspersons and met very few of these caricatures of yours.
Did you think that the Bundys were the only ones that hate federal ownership of land? Those attitudes do exist in a surprising number of people. I tend to find there are certain signs that can be a tell. Chief among them is the extensive use of ATV's. Even more so than hunting what tends to piss them off about the Forest Service is how they tell them when and where they can use ATV's.

Next time I go out to a local shooting spot I'll take pics of all the trash that gets left there. I pick up my spent shells and trash. Others....not so much.
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Old 11th August 2017, 08:21 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Did you think that the Bundys were the only ones that hate federal ownership of land? Those attitudes do exist in a surprising number of people. I tend to find there are certain signs that can be a tell. Chief among them is the extensive use of ATV's. Even more so than hunting what tends to piss them off about the Forest Service is how they tell them when and where they can use ATV's.

Next time I go out to a local shooting spot I'll take pics of all the trash that gets left there. I pick up my spent shells and trash. Others....not so much.
No. I have no doubt you're acquainted with some slob hunters like this, just as I've experienced many (including myself) who have a much broader environmental viewpoint.
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Old 11th August 2017, 10:59 PM   #91
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I dunno; it strikes me that even a marketing genius would have a tough time selling, "We hate everything about you--your god, your guns, your music and your SUV. But we sure would appreciate your vote!"
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Old 11th August 2017, 11:47 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I dunno; it strikes me that even a marketing genius would have a tough time selling, "We hate everything about you--your god, your guns, your music and your SUV. But we sure would appreciate your vote!"
How's that? We have a noted elitist bigoted misogynist (and a number of others of them if you look through the GOP starting lineup) and they've successfully marketed themselves as "the champion of the little man".

It doesn't seem a far cry from selling that **** to selling an agitated proletariat on the truth. Marketing doesn't have to be a lie, although that's a common misconception 'round these parts. When the poor whites realize that they have far more in common with the poor Latinos and poor blacks and that the oligarchs are the ones stacking the deck against the whole bunch and pitting them against each other, we're onto something. The question, as posed by the OP and continued in an excellent fashion by the delegation from the PNW, is how you get that message through.

It's a difficult sell. We don't have nativist bigotry as an emotional lynchpin so have to rely on logic and convincing arguments. When supposed "thinking conservatives" are willing to leap on proven reality (that 40% of Trump's core supporters are bigots and misogynists) and twist it for political ends in order to elect a piece of ****, we're fighting an uphill battle.

We will not win back the hard core and the enablers. The former are deplorable; the latter are complete whores.
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Old 12th August 2017, 04:08 AM   #93
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Also...I don't hate their music.
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Old 12th August 2017, 04:57 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I've spent my life around outdoorspersons and met very few of these caricatures of yours.
That means you have met some.
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Old 12th August 2017, 05:01 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I dunno; it strikes me that even a marketing genius would have a tough time selling, "We hate everything about you--your god, your guns, your music and your SUV. But we sure would appreciate your vote!"
Why would the USA "liberal" folk want to promote lies about themselves?
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Old 12th August 2017, 07:30 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Did you think that the Bundys were the only ones that hate federal ownership of land? Those attitudes do exist in a surprising number of people. I tend to find there are certain signs that can be a tell. Chief among them is the extensive use of ATV's. Even more so than hunting what tends to piss them off about the Forest Service is how they tell them when and where they can use ATV's.

Next time I go out to a local shooting spot I'll take pics of all the trash that gets left there. I pick up my spent shells and trash. Others....not so much.
"Shooters" are not necessarily "Hunters".

It was actually hunters that got game preservation started in America. They saw that market hunting extincted the Passenger Pigeon, and didn't want the same to happen to the ducks and shore birds. Ducks were worth a nickle each, and the breeding plumage of Snowy Egrets was worth it's weight in gold- literally. Shore birds are still illegal to shoot, but natural Swans have finally bounced back enough that they are fair game- after 100+ years.
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Old 12th August 2017, 07:35 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That means you have met some.
Indeed. We call them slob hunters.
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Old 12th August 2017, 06:33 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I dunno; it strikes me that even a marketing genius would have a tough time selling, "We hate everything about you--your god, your guns, your music and your SUV. But we sure would appreciate your vote!"
Probably about as tough as selling American conservatism to Latinos after decades (up to the present day in fact, considering Trump) of them telling them that, at best, they aren't wanted here.

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
"Shooters" are not necessarily "Hunters".

It was actually hunters that got game preservation started in America. They saw that market hunting extincted the Passenger Pigeon, and didn't want the same to happen to the ducks and shore birds. Ducks were worth a nickle each, and the breeding plumage of Snowy Egrets was worth it's weight in gold- literally. Shore birds are still illegal to shoot, but natural Swans have finally bounced back enough that they are fair game- after 100+ years.
Game preservation, yes, but not environmentalism. There was a fetish for deer, and there was a nationwide campaign to eradicate all predators that fed on them. The results can still be felt today with the four-legged locusts eating future forests down to the ground before they grow beyond saplings.

But a derail lies down that road.
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:00 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why would the USA "liberal" folk want to promote lies about themselves?
That's the problem, many conservatives don't actually listen to what liberals say. They live in an echo chamber and only hear caricatures of what liberals are saying.
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Old 12th August 2017, 11:29 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
That's the problem, many conservatives don't actually listen to what liberals say. They live in an echo chamber and only hear caricatures of what liberals are saying.
Getting back to the thread topic, this is where marketing science comes in.

Why do you think the echo chamber is so successful? Look at a few of the right wing posts in this thread. They don't see the messaging, at all. They don't think they've been sold a bill of goods. (If they still think Trump is their guy, how much more evidence does one need to see how effective the marketing actually is?)

The right wing did not come up with their marketing messaging without expertise. They have been working on that marketing, investing millions of dollars over many years. The left has a huge gap to close if we ever want the truth to be the best marketed message.


*See what I did there?
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:25 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Getting back to the thread topic, this is where marketing science comes in.

Why do you think the echo chamber is so successful? Look at a few of the right wing posts in this thread. They don't see the messaging, at all. They don't think they've been sold a bill of goods. (If they still think Trump is their guy, how much more evidence does one need to see how effective the marketing actually is?)

The right wing did not come up with their marketing messaging without expertise. They have been working on that marketing, investing millions of dollars over many years. The left has a huge gap to close if we ever want the truth to be the best marketed message.


*See what I did there?
I don't know that fear mongering and hate pandering is something that the left can compete with at a marketing level.
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Old 14th August 2017, 05:42 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
...,..,

Game preservation, yes, but not environmentalism. There was a fetish for deer, and there was a nationwide campaign to eradicate all predators that fed on them. The results can still be felt today with the four-legged locusts eating future forests down to the ground before they grow beyond saplings.

But a derail lies down that road.
NOBODY was into "environmentalism" until the 1970s. I doubt the word existed when hunters got game laws put in place. It probably IS the first example of "environmentalism". The nation was strip mining and clear cutting, and the hunters put restrictions in them selves.

But you want to discuss motivation. And you are drawing a line between the air we breath, the water we drink, - and the meat we eat. It's all environment, just ask Red Baron Farms.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:36 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Without even reading the OP - yes, they do, in a big way. Drop the sanctimonious crap, and - other stuff. Very quick version of my answer.

My quick answer for the right would be to drop the religious right, for starters. In fact I'd tell them to start another party.
I agree with both of those positions.
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Old 14th August 2017, 02:54 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I dunno; it strikes me that even a marketing genius would have a tough time selling, "We hate everything about you--your god, your guns, your music and your SUV. But we sure would appreciate your vote!"
Solid Point.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:20 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I dunno; it strikes me that even a marketing genius would have a tough time selling, "We hate everything about you--your god, your guns, your music and your SUV. But we sure would appreciate your vote!"

True. Maybe rethinking some of their actual stances and platforms might help.

I dunno man, both sides are so opposite right now. Why is it so hard for reasonable people in the middle to take control instead of the constant back and forth from the fringe. There's no way either party has all the right answers. Something needs to change.

Bah, whatever. I guess we're just human.

I mean take racism. "Both sides" are pissed off or unhappy, and each side knows it, and knows at least in part why the others are upset. But nothing will change unless we decide to just talk about it openly. Throwing bottles, shooting, demonstrating isn't going to cut it.

But can we fix this?

I think we are genetically predisposed to act exactly as we do. If I look at humans as I would any other animal, our behavior is much less of a surprise. Our survival instincts got us here and now they are a hindrance to us.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:22 PM   #106
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This is going to be a long post.

YES! The left needs a new marketing perspective. No question. But it's not just the DNC that needs an overhaul, it's the entire structure, down to most of the supporters.

An effective marketing message creates resonance - a connection with the intended audience. Step back and think about who the audience is. I propose that the audience is all potential voters. And yet, the left, including its supporters, repeatedly exclude large swaths of potential voters by being exclusionary, insulting, condescending, and pretty much just being jerks.

On the whole, I'm more left than right (although pretty close to middle, consistently over many years).

Step back and read your own positions and framing.

Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Liberals have a whole lot of truth and science on their side. And yet conservative messaging keeps things all muddled. While some of this can be attributed to the Conservative stranglehold on talk radio and the Sinclair Group owning all the local TV stations that are forced to air conservative propoganda
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
In other words the Basket of Deplorables remain deplorable.
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The problem isn't that Democrats need better marketing, the problem is that Democrats are much more invested in the objective fact model of reality, the GOP is more heavily invested in the personal fantasy model of reality, and the personal fantasy model is much more popular in very large parts of the US.
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
This is the problem. Liberals think that science and universal healthcare and public schools are good. Liberals think that we want to improve our lot and live together in harmony. But for a large part of the population that just isn't so. Many are committed to religion and cannot abide reality. Others love to hate, and some just want to see the World burn.

Hillary called these people Deplorables for good reason.

I say we keep being right and rub their noses in it.
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Marketing, especially GOP political marketing, depends on manipulating the most primitive regions of the brain.
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Except, like most everything else, that is another false narrative created by the far right and does not, in fact, express reality.

The fact is that a very large percentage of the American population is, in fact, racist and sexist and bigoted against LGBT people. But calling out those people is not why the left not getting through to middle-America. It's because middle-America is mired in a fantastical worldview based in religious fanaticism and the idea that anything that does not directly support their worldview is a lie created by a vast conspiracy to destroy good Christian Americans. Even actual, provable science cannot be trusted if it doesn't support that religious worldview.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
We actually have better ideas how to address "their own concerns" but "they" have been hoodwinked by the messaging.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
We just need to stop being obnoxious pricks.
This is the marketing message you have bought. It is not a fact based message.
Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The problem with all this is that the left has a profoundly uphill battle at the best of times, since they cannot pander to fear and prejudice, cannot provide an easy-to-recognize-and-hate scapegoat, and cannot make simplistic, quick-fix promises for highly complicated issues the way that the right can and does, and therefore do not have an easy path to influence the way the right does.
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
It's a difficult sell. We don't have nativist bigotry as an emotional lynchpin so have to rely on logic and convincing arguments. When supposed "thinking conservatives" are willing to leap on proven reality (that 40% of Trump's core supporters are bigots and misogynists) and twist it for political ends in order to elect a piece of ****, we're fighting an uphill battle.

We will not win back the hard core and the enablers. The former are deplorable; the latter are complete whores.
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I don't know that fear mongering and hate pandering is something that the left can compete with at a marketing level.
Step back and think about what you've written. You rage against hate, yet you drip it in so many posts. You preach tolerance, yet you converse exclusion and disenfranchisement. How do you expect to win people over to your side, when you're so free and self-righteous about expressing your hatred of them and the disgust you feel for them? You aren't expressing dislike for a political opponent, you're deriding the people that you need to resonate with. You're busy sneering down your noses at the people who didn't vote for you, then lamenting the fact that those same people you've dismissed as unworthy didn't support the things you hold most dear.

Are you really surprised that your marketing campaign is an abject failure?

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
That's the problem, many conservatives don't actually listen to what liberals say. They live in an echo chamber and only hear caricatures of what liberals are saying.
No, I don't think that's it. I think they hear you very well. I think they hear quite clearly that democrats and their supporters hold them in contempt.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:25 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Step two, craft messages that change the narrative. These are just examples.

For Evangelical climate change deniers: God made humans stewards of the Earth.
That's an excellent suggestion. It would be even more effective if you framed it inclusively: God made us stewards of the Earth. Regardless of whether you believe in god or not, inclusive language is almost always more effective then anything that 'others' your audience.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:28 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I don't know that fear mongering and hate pandering is something that the left can compete with at a marketing level.
With the right messaging we can. But without applying the resources, you're right, it is not going to happen.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:32 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
True. Maybe rethinking some of their actual stances and platforms might help.

I dunno man, both sides are so opposite right now. Why is it so hard for reasonable people in the middle to take control instead of the constant back and forth from the fringe. There's no way either party has all the right answers. Something needs to change.

Bah, whatever. I guess we're just human.

I mean take racism. "Both sides" are pissed off or unhappy, and each side knows it, and knows at least in part why the others are upset. But nothing will change unless we decide to just talk about it openly. Throwing bottles, shooting, demonstrating isn't going to cut it.

But can we fix this?

I think we are genetically predisposed to act exactly as we do. If I look at humans as I would any other animal, our behavior is much less of a surprise. Our survival instincts got us here and now they are a hindrance to us.
I don't think it's that cut-and-dried.

Yes, we're probably genetically predisposed to tribalism. Pretty much all social species are. But it's significantly exacerbated by our political system. First Past the Post pretty much inevitably leads to a constantly widening schism drawn apart by vocal minorities within each party.

Of course... getting rid of this political system is a fools errand - keeping it in place benefits the parties in power, who are the ones that would need to spearhead the change.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:34 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Interesting perspective here. His point is that liberals and progressives are generally oriented toward fair(er) outcomes, while conservatives focus on what they see as fair procedures.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.dd08289ce3d6
I think that's a fair assessment of a fundamental disconnect. It's all about whether you are more driven by the means or the ends.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:36 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
NOBODY was into "environmentalism" until the 1970s. I doubt the word existed when hunters got game laws put in place. It probably IS the first example of "environmentalism". The nation was strip mining and clear cutting, and the hunters put restrictions in them selves.

But you want to discuss motivation. And you are drawing a line between the air we breath, the water we drink, - and the meat we eat. It's all environment, just ask Red Baron Farms.
Try a decade earlier.

Silent Spring published in 1962.

The Pollution song was recorded on an album in 1965.

Just to name a few things.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:41 PM   #112
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For example: think minorities are taking your job or jobs are being outsourced, then we have to market jobs, like I posted a while back on the Daily Show piece: Brown in Town featuring a tech job training program in coal country.

I see no reason not to let the alt-right terrorism be more widely known, like the guy that was just arrested trying to recreate the OK City bombing.
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Old 14th August 2017, 03:41 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
A properly motivated person could potentially argue that Theodore Roosevelt's efforts toward conservation were some of the earliest steps toward environmental stewardship.
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Old 14th August 2017, 04:14 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Liberals have a whole lot of truth and science on their side. And yet conservative messaging keeps things all muddled. While some of this can be attributed to the Conservative stranglehold on talk radio and the Sinclair Group owning all the local TV stations that are forced to air conservative propoganda I contend a bunch of it comes down to the fact that Liberals assume they don't need marketing because it is beneath them and are getting trounced.

Climate change: basic well understood physics and chemistry but Conservative marketing has people questioning if weather even exists.

Universal healthcare: Definitely provides better medicine at lower cost than America's insurance Hunger Games system. But Conservative marketing has people convinced that all the cancer drugs will be diverted to black people in Baltimore because of Affirmative Action.

Good public schools: Obviously a good national resource. But conservative marketing has people about to lynch teachers for being anti-American traitors.


I say we need to market the message better and stop relying on our being right to win the day.
I haven't read the thread, but I'm going to respond directly to the OP. Keep in mind as you read this that I vote mostly Democratic, and it would never occur to me to vote for Trump regardless of his Democratic opponent.

I do think that there is some marketing problem for liberals/Democrats. (two groups with strong overlap, but definitely not the same thing).

I want to address your specific examples.

Climate change: The reality is that AGW is real. However, that is not what the voters are presented with. What they see is two sides. One denies that it is a problem at all. The other side says that if WE DON'T DO SOMETHING DRASTIC RIGHT NOW OUR CHILDREN WILL DIE!!!!!!!!

Neither one is accurate. Oh.....and neither one is actually an accurate characterization of the other side.

However, in terms of what will affect people for the foreseeable future, the deniers are actually closer than the alarmists. So, we need better marketing in two ways. We need to denounce both sets of extremists.

Universal Healthcare: All true, but it overlooks something. Obama really did lie in order to get his form of it passed, and a lot of people really did end up worse off for it. Some people ended up much, much, better off, but the guy whose life was saved by health care availability gets one vote, just like the guy whose premiums went up by 100 bucks per month, or the guy whose job was cut to 29 hours per week, and there are a lot more of the latter.

Public schools: My kid just graduated from a better than average suburban public school. I remain a staunch advocate of school choice. Think about this: science education in public schools is sufficiently bad that a lot of public school graduates are creationists. Contemplate that for a moment. It isn't the right wing's fault.

So, anyway, any of those could be a thread in and of itself, but the overall problem isn't just marketing. There are real issues with the message itself, whatever that is. The Republican message is fairly consistent. Free markets. Low taxes. Local control. The Democratic core message? I suppose it would be something about "fairness" or "equality", but at the end of the Democratic Convention last summer, my wife and I agreed that the message seemed to be, "We promise to give away other people's money."

Final thought: The best bit of Democratic marketing in my lifetime was the "Sister Soulja Moment". (Google it, youngsters.) Bill Clinton managed to convince people that he wasn't as extreme as his most vocal supporters, and he won the presidency. His wife had opportunities for those moments, but she didn't take them. She lost......to Donald Trump.

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Old 14th August 2017, 05:05 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Good call, Ms. Carson's book was the starting point of the modern environmental movement.

Of course the first US environmental movement kicked off with what I think was the first environmental organization in the USA, the Appalachian Mountain Club (1876). I believe second oldest is the Sierra Club (1892).

Others:
National Audubon Society (1905)
Appalachian Trail Conservancy (1925)
Defenders of Wildlife (1947)

Although I'm not familiar with the organization names I suspect there are even older groups from other parts of the globe.
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:04 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
the overall problem isn't just marketing. There are real issues with the message itself, whatever that is. The Republican message is fairly consistent. Free markets. Low taxes. Local control. The Democratic core message? I suppose it would be something about "fairness" or "equality", but at the end of the Democratic Convention last summer, my wife and I agreed that the message seemed to be, "We promise to give away other people's money."
Precisely. No matter how much 'marketing science' you put into it, you can't win over a bunch of selfish ********* with a message of fairness and equality. If Democarats want to win they need to do what Republicans do - lie.

Quote:
His wife had opportunities for those moments, but she didn't take them. She lost......to Donald Trump.
Proof that lying is the way to win.
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:32 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I haven't read the thread, but I'm going to respond directly to the OP. Keep in mind as you read this that I vote mostly Democratic, and it would never occur to me to vote for Trump regardless of his Democratic opponent.

I do think that there is some marketing problem for liberals/Democrats. (two groups with strong overlap, but definitely not the same thing).

I want to address your specific examples.

Climate change: The reality is that AGW is real. However, that is not what the voters are presented with. What they see is two sides. One denies that it is a problem at all. The other side says that if WE DON'T DO SOMETHING DRASTIC RIGHT NOW OUR CHILDREN WILL DIE!!!!!!!!

Neither one is accurate. Oh.....and neither one is actually an accurate characterization of the other side.

However, in terms of what will affect people for the foreseeable future, the deniers are actually closer than the alarmists. So, we need better marketing in two ways. We need to denounce both sets of extremists.
This assumes the problem is a knowledge deficit. That is not the only way to address effective mind changing.

Yes, claiming the sky is falling is a bad strategy. But beyond that, look instead at what messages are accomplishing besides imparting knowledge.

I mentioned the Christians because there is a known split in that community with people like the late Jerry Falwell telling people God won't let humans destroy God's creation. The other half though, bought the message God made humans stewards of the Earth.

The Evangelicals need the 'God is in control' message to believe global warming is a lie. All the knowledge imparting in the world is not going to get past that denial. But convincing them there is another Biblical message and at least some of them might change their POVs.

Then there are the big-truck red-neck types who don't want to give up the convenience of gas. No amount of correct information is going to affect them either. But one can address the issue with cheaper alternatives, inventions, sell a better product.

You can argue with those examples, but the examples are not the only solution. The point being, you have to look outside the knowledge-deficit box. That is what good marketers do.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Universal Healthcare: All true, but it overlooks something. Obama really did lie in order to get his form of it passed, and a lot of people really did end up worse off for it. Some people ended up much, much, better off, but the guy whose life was saved by health care availability gets one vote, just like the guy whose premiums went up by 100 bucks per month, or the guy whose job was cut to 29 hours per week, and there are a lot more of the latter.
Oh for crying out loud. You bought the Obama lied lie.

Is it possible Obama failed to predict what the insurers would do or didn't confer with them as much as he should have? Does it have to be some deceitful effort?

But I digress. Let's address this one with the need to counter the propaganda which the Democrats never effectively did. And there were many ways they could have.

The poor rollout also gave the GOP a wide open door for their Obama-care failure propaganda.

We could have, but didn't, flood the country with the fact the GOP had no replacement plan.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Public schools: My kid just graduated from a better than average suburban public school. I remain a staunch advocate of school choice. Think about this: science education in public schools is sufficiently bad that a lot of public school graduates are creationists. Contemplate that for a moment. It isn't the right wing's fault.

So, anyway, any of those could be a thread in and of itself, but the overall problem isn't just marketing. There are real issues with the message itself, whatever that is. The Republican message is fairly consistent. Free markets. Low taxes. Local control. The Democratic core message? I suppose it would be something about "fairness" or "equality", but at the end of the Democratic Convention last summer, my wife and I agreed that the message seemed to be, "We promise to give away other people's money."

Final thought: The best bit of Democratic marketing in my lifetime was the "Sister Soulja Moment". (Google it, youngsters.) Bill Clinton managed to convince people that he wasn't as extreme as his most vocal supporters, and he won the presidency. His wife had opportunities for those moments, but she didn't take them. She lost......to Donald Trump.
Yes, we could take these an issue at a time.

Get some good marketing science, think outside the knowledge deficit box, and think scientific marketing research to address peoples' underlying premises and their ideologies. Develop hypotheses as to what are the barriers to selling liberal solutions. Propose ways to address the barriers. Test, evaluate and if you fail, go back to the hypothesis and reassess the problem.


Fossil fuels have to be replaced by cheaper energy sources not just warning people about a threat they don't feel. China is moving ahead of us.

People need to know they are already paying the medical costs for deadbeats, better to make them carry insurance. There is a lot to work with there besides just a better system.

I've been a promoter of teaching critical thinking skills in public education. Don't get me started.

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Old 14th August 2017, 06:35 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Precisely. No matter how much 'marketing science' you put into it, you can't win over a bunch of selfish ********* with a message of fairness and equality. If Democarats want to win they need to do what Republicans do - lie.

Proof that lying is the way to win.
You naysayers really should consider a paradigm shift.

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Old 15th August 2017, 04:12 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The Evangelicals need the 'God is in control' message to believe global warming is a lie. All the knowledge imparting in the world is not going to get past that denial. But convincing them there is another Biblical message and at least some of them might change their POVs.
True, at least partially. I think a certain amount of knowledge imparting would go a long way, though.

There is a certain amount of "marketing" that goes into persuading people about scientific truth, as well as voting. The scientific community does a notoriously poor job of doing that.

Anyway, perhaps I'll think about this and come back with something more insightful. I think you are on to something here, but I also think that part of convincing people to vote for a candidate who is spouting a scientific message is "selling" the science itself. i.e. correcting the knowledge deficit.


Quote:
Oh for crying out loud. You bought the Obama lied lie.

Is it possible Obama failed to predict what the insurers would do or didn't confer with them as much as he should have? Does it have to be some deceitful effort?
Yeah, I did. I did because I listened to what was being said when the law was being "marketed", and I knew it wasn't true then. I figured if I knew it, he probably did, too.

Obama was an excellent marketer, of himself, and of his plans.
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Old 15th August 2017, 04:14 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Precisely. No matter how much 'marketing science' you put into it, you can't win over a bunch of selfish ********* with a message of fairness and equality. If Democarats want to win they need to do what Republicans do - lie.

Proof that lying is the way to win.
If they weren't so selfish, they would give you their money?

Yeah, that's a pretty tough sell.
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