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Old 26th October 2015, 08:40 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Jodie cooks her woo stew with no heed to complaints about its sickly taint. She knows exactly how it goes down here, and enjoys stinking the place up.
Be that as it may, the pattern of argumentation differs little from UFO claimants, homeopathic cure claimants, faith healing claimants -- and in that vein, religion claimants in general. There is always the pretense of taking a reasonable position: "I just want to find out what it was," or "If it turns out to be ordinary, I'd accept that." But the claimant then systematically rejects everything having to do with reason. And before long the claimant starts to get really personally attached to his own beliefs and interpretations of the event, often applying various ad hoc revision techniques to make sure the details remain untestable by science, or mysterious enough to maintain the illusion of an unsurpassable inductive leap.
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Old 26th October 2015, 09:10 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
...I think before ghost hunters and paranormal investigators can start talking about other dimensions they should learn more about this one because it's amazing to me.

Thanks for letting me rant.
You hit the nail squarely on the head!

Thanks for ranting.
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Old 26th October 2015, 06:22 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
'Cause we're big mean skeptics and close our minds to the wonders of the world around us.

But yeah I'd like Jodie to explain how she acquired these special mental powers to see ghosts and cougars and remember past lives that the rest of us mere mortals don't possess.
I've never seen an apparition. But I got locked in the bathroom at an old plantation by something. The only other thing was getting pinched by another something at Sloss Furnace in Birmingham, Al.

I'm not certain how my grandmother's partial got wedged into a ceiling light fixture. I can't see how a 92 year old woman that could barely walk would manage to climb up on a chair to do that but old people can surprise you sometimes, so that one is a "maybe".

I saw my mother in a dream who gave me a warning about what would happen to my siblings in the future.

I have two past life memories, one of being Socrate's student and of watching Abraham Lincoln give a speech.

That's the extent of my experiences. The only explanation I have is that I have a leaky id. I consider it to be a type of birth defect because our role here is to experience this life under our dimensional rules. I don't see a place for all of this other business, it certainly hasn't benefited me in any way.

The cougar sighting wasn't something I considered being paranormal.

But I did see an albino weasel crossing the road in my headlights coming home late at night in Mississippi. That was just weird, not ghostly.
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Old 26th October 2015, 06:26 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
That's the extent of my experiences.
That's half a dozen more than a healthy person.

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The only explanation I have is that I have a leaky id.
Again, probably the only explanation you will accept. My explanation is that you seek attention.

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...it certainly hasn't benefited me in any way.
Other than the attention, of course.

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Old 26th October 2015, 06:52 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
So please explain how Tegmark's mathematical model of consciousness based on the mathematics of quantum mechanics and information theory, has anything to do with concepts of a soul?
It depends on whether you consider consciousness to be the soul. In my belief, I think that we use the brain as a lens to focus our self awareness, or soul, or " I am alive" feeling to experience this 4th dimensional reality. From what I understand Tegmark was trying to describe this sense of self awareness using quantum theory. Except his made up word for this self awareness/soul/ muchy muchness is perceptronium. I'm not clear on why he chose that term, it sounds like a Transformer's name, like Optimus Prime, and no one will take that seriously.
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Old 26th October 2015, 07:05 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That's half a dozen more than a healthy person.
I think I'm in the majority rather than the minority when you consider the general population. How do you define healthy? Have you visited the Community Section here lately?

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Again, probably the only explanation you will accept. My explanation is that you seek attention.
If I wasn't posting something diametrically opposed to the concept of the forum then what on earth would you have to talk about? I view it as entertaining, and believe or not, some of you have actually managed to change my mind on a lot of things I once believed before. This topic on the afterlife unfortunately won't be one of them.

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Other than the attention, of course.
I get the feeling that's the fall back excuse when you've run out of anything else to say.
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Old 26th October 2015, 07:09 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Your own (mostly unconscious) insight, fallible memory/unintentional confabulation and sheer coincidence are all much more plausible explanations than an entity capable of seeing the future communicating with you through your dreams.
What if you're wrong about how my brain is working in these situations, would that mean you might have to give what I said some serious consideration?
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Old 26th October 2015, 07:15 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
If I wasn't posting something diametrically opposed to the concept of the forum then what on earth would you have to talk about?
So attention, then. Got it. That's the only reason I can imagine why someone would spend so much time among such harsh critics. But don't worry, without you there would still be a plethora of UFO abductees, faith healers, rosary-fingerers, climate-change deniers, conspiracy theorists, and other ghost hunters.

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I get the feeling that's the fall back excuse when you've run out of anything else to say.
The sum total I've had to say about your claims, previous and present, is that your feelings don't matter to anyone but you. You've made a valiant attempt to suggest that your warm-fuzzies have (or ought to have) some sort of vindication in science. You've simultaneously made a valiant attempt vilify science because it can't disprove those same warm-fuzzy anecdotes. All those have been answered by me and others.

We get it. You're a big fan of metaphysics. Once you stop making outrageous personal claims to get attention, you might get someone to discuss it with you.
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Old 26th October 2015, 07:18 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
What if you're wrong about how my brain is working in these situations, would that mean you might have to give what I said some serious consideration?
Serious consideration would require proof from you. Can you supply any? What if your brain is working normally, as others have suggested, and the things you've experienced are just part of normal human experience? What if, aside from the embellishments you can't seem to keep straight, your experiences are rather ordinary? Would that mean you aren't special anymore?
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Old 26th October 2015, 07:31 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Be that as it may, the pattern of argumentation differs little from UFO claimants, homeopathic cure claimants, faith healing claimants -- and in that vein, religion claimants in general. There is always the pretense of taking a reasonable position: "I just want to find out what it was," or "If it turns out to be ordinary, I'd accept that." But the claimant then systematically rejects everything having to do with reason. And before long the claimant starts to get really personally attached to his own beliefs and interpretations of the event, often applying various ad hoc revision techniques to make sure the details remain untestable by science, or mysterious enough to maintain the illusion of an unsurpassable inductive leap.
I think what I experienced was ordinary, just not for 4th dimensional space here on Earth. The details remain untestable because they are untestable, or at least until physics catches up with a way to intuit what other dimensional space is like based on what is testable. Isn't that one of the reasons they built CERN?
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Old 26th October 2015, 07:36 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think what I experienced was ordinary, just not for 4th dimensional space here on Earth.
Asked and answered. Your speculative musings upon others' speculative musings do not constitute any sort of reality.

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The details remain untestable because they are untestable, or at least until physics catches up...
No, the details are untestable because random personal anecdotes are always untestable, which is why they are so popular with a wide range of fringe claimants looking to find some straw-man reason to decry science. Science is not hopelessly hobbled just because it knows the difference between fact and imagination.
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Old 26th October 2015, 07:45 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Serious consideration would require proof from you. Can you supply any? What if your brain is working normally, as others have suggested, and the things you've experienced are just part of normal human experience? What if, aside from the embellishments you can't seem to keep straight, your experiences are rather ordinary? Would that mean you aren't special anymore?
The best I can do is provide circumstantial evidence regarding multi dimensional space. Then I borrowed from neuro research regarding consciousness in developing AI. All I've done is try to synthesize the two into a cohesive hypothesis, one that can't be tested at the moment, but that might change at some point in the future. Then I applied that to some specific experiences I've had.

Am I special? I doubt it, some of you have had similar experiences but you chose to toss it off as something else. I happen to think our consciousness resides in other dimensions besides just here, that we are multidimensional beings, but our focus is on this "now", so to speak. That would apply to you, me, everyone across the board equally.
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Old 26th October 2015, 07:54 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Asked and answered. Your speculative musings upon others' speculative musings do not constitute any sort of reality.
It doesn't make it wrong, at least not that we know of yet. It only seems irrational if you think your flesh and blood body is the entire "you".

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No, the details are untestable because random personal anecdotes are always untestable, which is why they are so popular with a wide range of fringe claimants looking to find some straw-man reason to decry science. Science is not hopelessly hobbled just because it knows the difference between fact and imagination.
Without imagination where would science be? I don't decry science, I embrace it because it's the only road we can use to understand our reality.
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Old 26th October 2015, 07:57 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
The best I can do is provide circumstantial evidence regarding multi dimensional space.
No, you provide anecdotes that you support with vague, handwaving references to "multi-dimensional space" that necessitate you having to warp the original intent of their authors. Every genre of fringe claimants has their special brand of pseudo-science. UFO enthusiasts appeal to Townsend, etc.

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Then I borrowed from neuro research regarding consciousness in developing AI. All I've done is try to synthesize the two into a cohesive hypothesis...
No, you've tried to provide a pseudo-scientific backfill to the personal anecdotes the form the core of your public performance.

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Am I special? I doubt it...
I do too. But I don't doubt that you think you're special. Just like every other fringe claimant who relies on personal anecdotes propped up against a backdrop of pseudo-scientific handwaving.

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[S]ome of you have had similar experiences but you chose to toss it off as something else.
"Toss off." Yeah, people interpret differently the same ordinary experiences you've had and that merits your scorn. Please, by all means continue trying to argue that you don't think you're special.

When my father passed away I had several dreams of him. Just dreams. No need to appeal to other dimensions or ghosts. So yeah, go ahead and tell everyone else how I'm a guy chained in a cave.

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That would apply to you, me, everyone across the board equally.
What would apply equally to every person on this board is objective evidence. But you don't have any of that, do you?
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Old 26th October 2015, 07:59 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
It only seems irrational if you think your flesh and blood body is the entire "you".
I define as "me" what can be proven to be "me." I wisely refuse to bank on what I imagine might else be "me." You seem to be confused as to what constitutes "rational."

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Without imagination where would science be?
The same place it would be without empiricism. Imagination provides the hypothesis; empiricism provides the proof. You always forget that second part.
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Old 26th October 2015, 08:04 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
So attention, then. Got it. That's the only reason I can imagine why someone would spend so much time among such harsh critics. But don't worry, without you there would still be a plethora of UFO abductees, faith healers, rosary-fingerers, climate-change deniers, conspiracy theorists, and other ghost hunters.



The sum total I've had to say about your claims, previous and present, is that your feelings don't matter to anyone but you. You've made a valiant attempt to suggest that your warm-fuzzies have (or ought to have) some sort of vindication in science. You've simultaneously made a valiant attempt vilify science because it can't disprove those same warm-fuzzy anecdotes. All those have been answered by me and others.

We get it. You're a big fan of metaphysics. Once you stop making outrageous personal claims to get attention, you might get someone to discuss it with you.
Well, rather than be offended by how I interpret my own personal experiences, I think you just don't want to consider that your own consciousness might survive your physical existence here, for whatever reason. Insulting me won't make the thoughts I suggested go away.
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Old 26th October 2015, 08:09 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I define as "me" what can be proven to be "me." I wisely refuse to bank on what I imagine might else be "me." You seem to be confused as to what constitutes "rational."
For right here and right now, it serves you just fine.

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The same place it would be without empiricism. Imagination provides the hypothesis; empiricism provides the proof. You always forget that second part.
Imagination provides the hypothesis, but it is based on empirical data , as I tried to demonstrate. Are you telling me that every suggested hypothesis discussed here requires proof? Is there no educational benefit in pondering the "what ifs" ?
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Old 26th October 2015, 08:15 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Well, rather than be offended by how I interpret my own personal experiences...
Interpreting them in public, loudly and repeatedly. Do you really think your motives are so transparent? As to the offense component, you're posting ghost stories in a forum clearly devoted to skepticism. You know exactly what response to expect. Complaining about it just makes us laugh.

Last edited by JayUtah; 26th October 2015 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 26th October 2015, 08:19 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
For right here and right now, it serves you just fine.
Indeed. When the evidence changes, so likely will my view. Until then, no.

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Imagination provides the hypothesis, but it is based on empirical data , as I tried to demonstrate.
Well, no, you demonstrated that you don't know what the hypothetico-deductive method is. First, if you're going to lambast science, learn what science is. Second, if you think that science supports your random nonsensical crap, learn what science is.

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Are you telling me that every suggested hypothesis discussed here requires proof?
Yes. If you want it to be seen as rational.

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Is there no educational benefit in pondering the "what ifs" ?
Pondering is not proof. When you lambast science for being unable to explain your embellished fantasies, you transcend pondering. Evidence, or GTFO.
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Old 26th October 2015, 08:59 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, you provide anecdotes that you support with vague, handwaving references to "multi-dimensional space" that necessitate you having to warp the original intent of their authors. Every genre of fringe claimants has their special brand of pseudo-science. UFO enthusiasts appeal to Townsend, etc.
I have no idea who Townsend is, so what is the original intent of the research that I cited to back up my supposition if I'm incorrect?

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No, you've tried to provide a pseudo-scientific backfill to the personal anecdotes the form the core of your public performance.
It looked like science to me, the only backfill I provided would be how our consciousness interacts or exists within a multidimensional world. If we exist here in 4th dimensional space then why would we not co-exist simultaneously in other dimensional space? I'm not talking about just people, wouldn't that apply to everything including inanimate objects?

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I do too. But I don't doubt that you think you're special. Just like every other fringe claimant who relies on personal anecdotes propped up against a backdrop of pseudo-scientific handwaving.
Nothing I stated is pseudoscience other than the idea that we might co-exist in other dimensional space.

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"Toss off." Yeah, people interpret differently the same ordinary experiences you've had and that merits your scorn. Please, by all means continue trying to argue that you don't think you're special.

There is no scorn, it's no different than saying "dismiss" or "attribute", it sounds like you simply didn't like my choice of verb. I thought I was arguing for the existence of multidimensional consciousness and how that might apply to some of my personal experiences, do you think that makes me special ? If so, you need to start a new thread in Community.

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When my father passed away I had several dreams of him. Just dreams. No need to appeal to other dimensions or ghosts. So yeah, go ahead and tell everyone else how I'm a guy chained in a cave.
I'm sure those dreams gave you great comfort. I don't know what happened in your dreams to have an opinion. The only thing that separated my dream from the ordinary was the content that did eventually happen several years after the fact. As I said, it was pointless, but I gave Mom an "A" for effort.

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What would apply equally to every person on this board is objective evidence. But you don't have any of that, do you?
Of course not, but I haven't seen anything but derision from you so if you are trying to educate me, you fail. What I do see is someone getting very bent out of shape at the thought that the world might not conform to his preconceived notions. I would say that you've embraced your own chains similar to those of an animal that has lived in captivity for all of it's life who doesn't know how to act when the door to his cage is left open.
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Old 26th October 2015, 09:13 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
what is the original intent of the research that I cited to back up my supposition if I'm incorrect?
Speculation, not research. Your attempt to explain events in terms of it constitutes the misuse.

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It looked like science to me...
Nope.

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Nothing I stated is pseudoscience other than the idea that we might co-exist in other dimensional space.
That's the pseudoscience.

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There is no scorn, it's no different than saying "dismiss" or "attribute", it sounds like you simply didn't like my choice of verb.
No, I didn't, considering "toss off" is the Commonwealth euphemism for masturbation. Do you consider your critics' interpretation of their experiences as putatively valid as yours? A simple "yes" or "no" would be appreciated.
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Old 26th October 2015, 09:17 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Interpreting them in public, loudly and repeatedly. Do you really think your motives are so transparent? As to the offense component, you're posting ghost stories in a forum clearly devoted to skepticism. You know exactly what response to expect. Complaining about it just makes us laugh.
I don't see anyone laughing, I do see you having a virtual conniption fit over how I chose to interpret my experiences in a thread titled " My Ghost Story". How rational is that? I'm not complaining, I'm making a valid observation.
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Old 26th October 2015, 09:23 PM   #383
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No, I'm simply trying to figure out how it might be possible. There are a lot "if's" and "maybe's" before I could state that it was true such as...
Late me state a few things I know to be true about ghosts:

1. Social, religious, and cultural background is a solid predictor as to who will see a ghost.
2. There is no consistent data on ghosts which allows for predictable patterns. This includes location, time of day/week/month/year, or what creates a haunting.
3. The most common ghosts are of living people.

#3 holds the key to understanding the phenomenon in my opinion, because it hints at how the brain manufactures information based on esoteric and abstract input.


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1. If the mathematics is correct and other dimensions exist.
So.

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2. If they exist, would they function the way we think they would.
Fair question, but right now the physicists who think about this stuff can't answer that right now.

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3. If these other dimensions do function the way we anticipate how does that affect our existence.
Why would it effect us at all?

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4. Does our consciousness reside in these other dimensions?
I doubt it. We are creatures of this dimension.

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5. Is our conscious simply a function of the brain or does the brain exist because our consciousness needs a lens to focus on 4th dimensional reality?
I could be wrong but I think the 4th Dimension belongs to the concept of Time (in space-time).

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I choose to believe that we exist in all dimensions at the same time and that our brain provides the focus to process our existence here on Earth.
You base this on what? I live on earth, but not everywhere on earth. I can't live on the bottom of the Pacific and I wouldn't last very long at the top of Everest or Antarctica. So while I exist on earth I only inhabit a small fraction of it. At the moment it's safe to say the same would be true in regard to other dimensions.


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I also choose to believe that physical life and death have little meaning in the grand scheme of things, it's more of a type of phase of existence.
You know what has little meaning? The word "Meaning". As someone who has been dead I can tell you life is a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

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Seeing ghosts is definitely all in our heads because without our brain, assuming the person actually experienced something, the "ghost" couldn't manifest without the person being there to observe it's presence IMO.
Now you're talking in circles. If ghosts are real then they manifest regardless of who is or is not present.

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Belief that such things exist would probably have to play a part in ghost sightings because you probably wouldn't see the manifestation without it.
If something exists then you will see it regardless of what you believe.

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Seeing what you want to believe probably determines who you see if these sightings actually happen.
Not really. I've never seen Cindy Crawford in my room, and I really want this to happen.

For the most part it's the power of suggestion. It's like seeing a spider cross the floor - every itch you feel for a while afterwords becomes that spider. A ghost-hunting team I knew actually created a ghost as part of a controlled experiment involving a high school. They started a rumor about a 2nd floor janitor's closet haunted by someone who had hung themselves inside. I think they gave him a red shirt or some distinguishing feature. Within 6 months this previously unhaunted 2nd floor janitor's closet was now haunted by a boy in a red shirt.



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So if the prophetic dream wasn't my mother, it was definitely something IMO, simply because what she/he/it said came true, but there wasn't enough information given to avoid the outcome.
I think you're just perceptive. You put the pieces together in your subconscious and brought it forward in the dream.
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Old 26th October 2015, 09:24 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Speculation, not research. Your attempt to explain events in terms of it constitutes the misuse.
No it isn't, that's simply your opinion. How do you think science works if it doesn't first begin with speculation?

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No, I didn't, considering "toss off" is the Commonwealth euphemism for masturbation. Do you consider your critics' interpretation of their experiences as putatively valid as yours? A simple "yes" or "no" would be appreciated.
I live in South Carolina, how am I supposed to know what slang you use for masturbation? It didn't occur to you that I was using the traditional definition of the term? Why would you think I would say something like that? Anyone's opinion is as valid as mine when it comes to discussing uncharted territory such as what consciousness is, the afterlife, and such.
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Old 26th October 2015, 09:43 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Late me state a few things I know to be true about ghosts:

1. Social, religious, and cultural background is a solid predictor as to who will see a ghost.
2. There is no consistent data on ghosts which allows for predictable patterns. This includes location, time of day/week/month/year, or what creates a haunting.
3. The most common ghosts are of living people.

#3 holds the key to understanding the phenomenon in my opinion, because it hints at how the brain manufactures information based on esoteric and abstract input.
You mean like the doppleganger myth? I'm not familiar with stories of living ghosts unless that's what you're talking about. I don't disagree with the rest. I think belief plays a big part in what you see, it would have to if it is truly an entity plucking something familiar from your memory in order to interact with you in some way.

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So
Then pseudoscience doesn't apply to the basic premise of what I was suggesting.

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Fair question, but right now the physicists who think about this stuff can't answer that right now.
That's true.

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Why would it effect us at all?
Because there is no "down" if there is no "up" and the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd dimensional space intersect. Time is the 4th dimensional space which overlays the 3, why would the upper dimensions be any different?

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I doubt it. We are creatures of this dimension.
That could possibly be just a matter of perception if the previous suggestion of inter-related dimensions happens to be true.

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I could be wrong but I think the 4th Dimension belongs to the concept of Time (in space-time).
It does.

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You base this on what? I live on earth, but not everywhere on earth. I can't live on the bottom of the Pacific and I wouldn't last very long at the top of Everest or Antarctica. So while I exist on earth I only inhabit a small fraction of it. At the moment it's safe to say the same would be true in regard to other dimensions.
If consciousness resides in all dimensions then your brain only allows you to perceive this 4th dimensional space that you occupy, your physical existence limits what you can focus on since you are here to have a physical experience...just IMO. If a part of us extends into other dimensions then whether we can perceive anything other than that depends on what abilities we have there. If we can perceive the 4th dimension one slice at a time, then we should be able to perceive everything at once if we are looking from 5th dimensional spatial perspective. At least that's my understanding of it.

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You know what has little meaning? The word "Meaning". As someone who has been dead I can tell you life is a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
I'm really interested in hearing about it if you don't mind sharing.

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Now you're talking in circles. If ghosts are real then they manifest regardless of who is or is not present.
No, I don't think they can manifest unless there is a conduit, such as a person, to manifest through. I think they use what you expect or believe to see to portray the expected. I've watched films of poltergeist activity in empty buildings but no one has bothered to study them seriously. I could very well be wrong.

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If something exists then you will see it regardless of what you believe.
That's not necessarily true. No two NDE's that I've ever heard about are just alike. I think you see what you believe or expect to see. Likewise with eye witness testimony, no two witnesses will describe the same thing.

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Not really. I've never seen Cindy Crawford in my room, and I really want this to happen.

For the most part it's the power of suggestion. It's like seeing a spider cross the floor - every itch you feel for a while afterwords becomes that spider. A ghost-hunting team I knew actually created a ghost as part of a controlled experiment involving a high school. They started a rumor about a 2nd floor janitor's closet haunted by someone who had hung themselves inside. I think they gave him a red shirt or some distinguishing feature. Within 6 months this previously unhaunted 2nd floor janitor's closet was now haunted by a boy in a red shirt.
That fits my theory.

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I think you're just perceptive. You put the pieces together in your subconscious and brought it forward in the dream.
My siblings were children at the time my mother died. I can't see how I could have subconsciously known anything about their future.
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Last edited by Jodie; 26th October 2015 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 26th October 2015, 09:45 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
No it isn't, that's simply your opinion. How do you think science works if it doesn't first begin with speculation?
But it doesn't end with speculation. And that's not just my opinion.
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Old 26th October 2015, 11:34 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
What if you're wrong about how my brain is working in these situations, would that mean you might have to give what I said some serious consideration?
What if you're wrong about how your brain is working in these situations, would that mean you might have to give what I said some serious consideration?

In the absence of supporting objective evidence, fanciful explanations which contradict much of what we have discovered about how the world works do not merit serious consideration when there are several plausible mundane ones.
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Old 27th October 2015, 01:51 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
This has been pointed out before, but I think it's worth saying again.
Your basic assumption is that science is wrong, and that some day it will "catch up" with whichever of your numerous and contradictory beliefs you are espousing today.
Every step science has made so far has led more to the realisation that we really are just material bodies relying on electro-chemical reactions in our brains. Consciousness has been shown to be an emergent property of brains. There is no consciousness outside of our brains. The more we discover, the more evidence we have for this. If what you are saying is true, this would involve throwing out every single one of these steps- steps which have been thoroughly tested and validated. How could this possibly happen?
You have this apparently unshakeable belief that science is wrong, and your speculative beliefs are right and will one day be validated by science. Given that this is highly unlikely, have you considered revising your assumptions? Do you not think that is is just faintly possible that what you saw was just a dream?
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think what I experienced was ordinary, just not for 4th dimensional space here on Earth. The details remain untestable because they are untestable, or at least until physics catches up with a way to intuit what other dimensional space is like based on what is testable. Isn't that one of the reasons they built CERN?
Given that you're doing exactly what I said you were doing, would you mind now answering my questions?
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Old 27th October 2015, 02:19 AM   #389
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I can't think why Jodie does not embrace my testimony about how I sent her that dream via my cell phone from the subtle dimensions.

I mean, it's anecdote and hypothesis all wrapped in untestable cohesion.
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Old 27th October 2015, 07:04 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't see anyone laughing...
That's funny; I do.

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I do see you having a virtual conniption fit...
Sitting at my keyboard calmly typing replies designed to test your claims is somehow a "conniption fit?" This is the second time you've loaded your language like this. Are you trying to make your critics feel ashamed for challenging your beliefs?

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...over how I chose to interpret my experiences in a thread titled " My Ghost Story". How rational is that?
You choose to interpret your experiences in a way that you then say is scientific, but provide none of the essence of science to back that up. Then you say science has to "catch up" to your particular intuitive brand of making things up as you go. And you insinuate that your critics secretly have the same experiences as you but are too spiritually myopic to appreciate it for what it is. And you do all this publicly in a very prominently skeptical forum, where your post count leads us to believe you can be expected to know the response.

So yes, it is rational for me to expect you to understand that you'll be criticized for what you're doing. I find it more likely you're simply seeking attention than it is you have something insightful to discuss.
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Old 27th October 2015, 07:23 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Snip
Science is not hopelessly hobbled just because it knows the difference between fact and imagination.
Sig worthy! Your words, Jay?
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Old 27th October 2015, 08:13 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by HighRiser View Post
Sig worthy! Your words, Jay?
They are. Thank you!
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Old 27th October 2015, 11:35 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... I'm making a valid observation.
Looks more like an invalid conclusion for which you have an emotional need.
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Old 27th October 2015, 03:34 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
What if you're wrong about how your brain is working in these situations, would that mean you might have to give what I said some serious consideration?

In the absence of supporting objective evidence, fanciful explanations which contradict much of what we have discovered about how the world works do not merit serious consideration when there are several plausible mundane ones.
If I remember any of my dreams at all, it's usually what I call a "dump" dream where it's a mish mash of the previous day's events. Once in awhile I'll have the typical " I can't find the exit on the interstate dream" and I keep driving around in circles on this giant conjunction of freeways. The other dream I have on a regular basis is about an approaching tornado and my feet are stuck to the ground. That's it, I don't have dreams where actual conversations take place and rarely remember anything when I do dream.
I don't think my mind would suddenly do something different from what it usually does, but I could be wrong, other people have dreams where they talk to people in those dreams.

I think if you happen to be an atheist you would probably find my speculation about this to be offensive. That's the only reason I can think of for why you and JayUtah would insist on proof for something that was clearly stated to be an idea. You don't have to participate in the conversation if it offends you.
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Old 27th October 2015, 03:35 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Given that you're doing exactly what I said you were doing, would you mind now answering my questions?
Which post number?
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Old 27th October 2015, 03:50 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That's funny; I do.
How are you seeing the other forum members?


Quote:
Sitting at my keyboard calmly typing replies designed to test your claims is somehow a "conniption fit?" This is the second time you've loaded your language like this. Are you trying to make your critics feel ashamed for challenging your beliefs?
Your posting tantrum indicates some kind of internal strife regardless of how you might be typing your posts. Is telling someone to GTFO the forum an appropriate post just because you don't agree with their viewpoint? It's not.

Quote:
You choose to interpret your experiences in a way that you then say is scientific, but provide none of the essence of science to back that up. Then you say science has to "catch up" to your particular intuitive brand of making things up as you go. And you insinuate that your critics secretly have the same experiences as you but are too spiritually myopic to appreciate it for what it is. And you do all this publicly in a very prominently skeptical forum, where your post count leads us to believe you can be expected to know the response.
There is a scientific basis to what I'm saying, I clearly laid out what part was my speculation. If someone doesn't agree with me it means they've accepted some other explanation. There is nothing in the rules that state that every point pondered here requires the kind of proof that you are asking me to provide. If you chose to do that then that limits the quality of the content that members can contribute to the forum. Science is riddled with speculation, imagination, and new concepts otherwise it would be directionless.

Quote:
So yes, it is rational for me to expect you to understand that you'll be criticized for what you're doing. I find it more likely you're simply seeking attention than it is you have something insightful to discuss.
You are falling back on the attention seeking angle because you are personally offended by what I'm posting. If you can't remain objective, regardless of whether you agree or not, then that says more about your mindset than it does about my motives.
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Old 27th October 2015, 03:51 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
That's the only reason I can think of for why you and JayUtah would insist on proof for something that was clearly stated to be an idea.
You clearly stated your belief that it was an idea backed up by science. If you say that in a skeptics' forum, but can't actually provide real science, you will be challenged.

Quote:
You don't have to participate in the conversation if it offends you.
Conversely you don't get to complain when you engender criticism you had reason to suspect. As to the matter of "offense," there you go again with your loaded language. Why does it seem as if you're trying to make your critics go away?
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Old 27th October 2015, 04:04 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
Looks more like an invalid conclusion for which you have an emotional need.
I've been straight forward, to the point, and clearly outlined what was speculation on my part and what scientific thought that speculation was based on......the emotional need seems to be coming from a handful of other forum members rather than from my position.
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Old 27th October 2015, 04:04 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... something that was clearly stated to be an idea. ...
The you knowing without a doubt that your mother visited you after you died??
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... I know without a doubt that my mother visited me after she died. ...
... or the speculation about unrealistic explanations for the above, without there being any evidence supporting the (possibility of) occurrence of such a thing?
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Old 27th October 2015, 04:08 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
How are you seeing the other forum members?
Literally "see?" You're actually making such a pedantic argument?

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Your posting tantrum...
More loaded language.

Quote:
...indicates some kind of internal strife...
Oh, please. You overestimate your influence. I am confident your critics aren't wallowing in the throes of some sort of cognitive dissonance over your claims.

Quote:
Is telling someone to GTFO the forum an appropriate post just because you don't agree with their viewpoint? It's not.
"_____ or GTFO" is just another popular expression. Don't take it personally. And it's not just because I don't agree with your viewpoint. It's because you suggest your beliefs are backed by science, but you refuse to supply the science -- i.e., appropriate evidence. You admit you can't, so why are you still beating the horse? I told you explicitly I had no problem with you believing whatever you want.

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There is a scientific basis to what I'm saying...
Asked and answered. Rampant speculation using scientific-sounding words from someone else's speculation is not science.

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You are falling back on the attention seeking angle because you are personally offended by what I'm posting.
Actually I'm not falling back at all. That's pretty much my primary affirmation, and you were kind enough to essentially confirm that I was right about it. What was that you said? What would we do around here if we didn't have you to kick around? Yeah, attention-seeking.

And no matter how frantically you try to write off your critics as somehow emotionally fragile, the fact remains that people are very much trying to drag you away from emotional attachment to an idea and toward objective methods of testing your claims. You can't personally offend me; I have no idea who you are, nor do I care.

You do offend reason, though. For the reasons amply laid out by the several posters in this thread.
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