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Old 27th October 2015, 04:09 PM   #401
Jodie
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
The you knowing without a doubt that your mother visited you after you died??

... or the speculation about unrealistic explanations for the above, without there being any evidence supporting the (possibility of) occurrence of such a thing?
I think she did visit me after she died, how that might have been accomplished is my speculation based on the multiverse theory, some theories from research regarding consciousness that is related to AI, and how psychology delineates the different levels of consciousness.
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Old 27th October 2015, 04:12 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I've been straight forward, to the point, and clearly outlined what was speculation on my part and what scientific thought that speculation was based on...
But then you tried to equate speculation with science, according to the tap-dance that science would be nothing without speculation. Twice thereafter I had to correct that misconception by noting that imagination and speculation provide the hypotheses that invigorate science, but that science doesn't happen without testing those hypotheses according to evidence. Only then do you get a descriptive, predictive theory. That's science.
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Old 27th October 2015, 04:12 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I've been straight forward, to the point, and clearly outlined what was speculation on my part and what scientific thought that speculation was based on......the emotional need seems to be coming from a handful of other forum members rather than from my position.
What was the you knowing without a doubt that your mother visited you after she died?
Was that according to you scientific thought or speculation?

Your emotional need lies in your need to 'take care of unfinished business'.
Your mother doesn't need anything anymore, she's gone, for good.
You should have done that while she was alive, you didn't.
See here:
Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
It was only a memory of your mother, instigated by your desire to take care of unfinished business.

Nothing more.

You've been too argumentative with your mother in the past, you can not fix it anymore, other than accept what has been, learn from it and use it to improve yourself.

That's the only way your desire to take care of unfinished business with your arguments with your mother while she was alive, can have any positive meaning.
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Last edited by Daylightstar; 27th October 2015 at 04:36 PM. Reason: "you" > "she"; "'take ... business'" link embedded.
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Old 27th October 2015, 04:14 PM   #404
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think she did visit me after she died, how that might have been accomplished is my speculation based on the multiverse theory, some theories from research regarding consciousness that is related to AI, and how psychology delineates the different levels of consciousness.
You are trying to find an 'explanation' for something for which no evidence at all exists that it can occur.
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Old 27th October 2015, 04:16 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think she did visit me after she died, ...
You want it to be so, but you can't make it so.
Your mother is gone, forever.
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Old 27th October 2015, 04:16 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think she did visit me after she died, how that might have been accomplished is my speculation based on the multiverse theory, some theories from research regarding consciousness that is related to AI, and how psychology delineates the different levels of consciousness.
For me, it seems as though you don't understand any of the theories you're basing your speculation on. Instead, you're starting with your conclusion then trying to find key words or phrases in popular science that you can retrofit into your argument.
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Old 27th October 2015, 04:19 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I think she did visit me after she died...
Earlier you were adamant that she in fact visited you. Now you only "think" so, but give your critics no quarter for taking you at your previous word. You now appear open to some doubt regarding that. Would you care to enlighten us regarding what finally engendered that doubt?

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[H]ow that might have been accomplished is my speculation based on the multiverse theory, some theories from research regarding consciousness that is related to AI, and how psychology delineates the different levels of consciousness.
But as others have pointed out, you either don't understand any of the principles to which you've referred or you have elected to misrepresent them. If the former, then your speculation offers no probative value; the parsimonious explanation remains simply that you had a dream about your mother. If the latter, then you would be properly taken to task for propping up a belief you arrived at by means other than science, deliberately misusing science to do so.
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Old 27th October 2015, 04:34 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Earlier you were adamant that she in fact visited you. Now you only "think" so, but give your critics no quarter for taking you at your previous word. You now appear open to some doubt regarding that. Would you care to enlighten us regarding what finally engendered that doubt?
...
Similar to the below:
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... what I think I experienced. ...
She probably has no doubt whatsoever.
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Old 27th October 2015, 04:35 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
But then you tried to equate speculation with science, according to the tap-dance that science would be nothing without speculation. Twice thereafter I had to correct that misconception by noting that imagination and speculation provide the hypotheses that invigorate science, but that science doesn't happen without testing those hypotheses according to evidence. Only then do you get a descriptive, predictive theory. That's science.
I agree, my thoughts on what I've read are strictly speculation on my part to explain what I experienced. What I experienced was outside of normal for me so I reject the explanation that it was subconscious suggestion or wishful thinking. Had the dream been about me I might have felt differently.

Science happens when you take what is known or what mathematics might suggest is possible to formulate a hypothesis. It might take decades or centuries to arrive at a technological standpoint where it would be feasible to test certain hypotheses but it doesn't make what's postulated garbage.

I was reading a link from another forum poster about the lack of a center for the universe and why there are conflicting theories on what the shape of the universe is at the moment. The most well accepted theory is that the universe is flat but it's not definite. Neither is dark matter but it makes certain equations work well to explain cosmological questions. When you really start delving into physics, at least the theoretical part, it's pretty bizarre at some of things that are hypothesized based on the evidence available. Those are just a couple of examples. You can find conjecture and supposition in every discipline.
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Old 27th October 2015, 04:40 PM   #410
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... What I experienced was outside of normal for me so I reject the explanation that it was subconscious suggestion or wishful thinking. ...
You reject any explanation which does not recognize your visiting mother as a fact.
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Old 27th October 2015, 04:56 PM   #411
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Earlier you were adamant that she in fact visited you. Now you only "think" so, but give your critics no quarter for taking you at your previous word. You now appear open to some doubt regarding that. Would you care to enlighten us regarding what finally engendered that doubt?



But as others have pointed out, you either don't understand any of the principles to which you've referred or you have elected to misrepresent them. If the former, then your speculation offers no probative value; the parsimonious explanation remains simply that you had a dream about your mother. If the latter, then you would be properly taken to task for propping up a belief you arrived at by means other than science, deliberately misusing science to do so.
Not so, it depends on what theories you want to accept as most probable. For every postulate out there regardless of what it might be you will find those that don't agree with it. Each side has their reasons, you decide what you want to believe about them.

I do think/believe/ have no doubt that my mother visited me in a dream after she died. If you are an atheist then you've rejected my premise before I even tried to explain why I think our consciousness isn't limited to our physical body.

The multiverse theory is one of many theories that explain reality and is based on mathematics. AI research is a relatively new field and nothing about psychology is set in stone as evidenced by the constant revisions of the DSM III diagnostic criteria for certain disorders. Science is malleable, it's not concrete and tidy, just as my belief that my mother visited me after she died is subjective.
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Old 27th October 2015, 05:01 PM   #412
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... Science is malleable, it's not concrete and tidy, just as my belief that my mother visited me after she died is subjective.
Science nor belief will bring your mother back.
She's gone, for good.
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Old 27th October 2015, 05:16 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Not so, it depends on what theories you want to accept as most probable.
You don't understand the theories. That's a separate problem from whether they are credible.

Quote:
I do think/believe/ have no doubt that my mother visited me in a dream after she died.
Throwing all your contradictory claims together in one sentence doesn't reconcile them.

Quote:
If you are an atheist then you've rejected my premise...
Red herring. Your premise is rejected because it lacks evidence, not because your critics are somehow biased.

Quote:
Science is malleable, it's not concrete and tidy, just as my belief that my mother visited me after she died is subjective.
Non sequitur. Science is malleable because it adapts to new evidence. It is not subjective, and takes great pains to distance itself from any semblance of subjectivity.
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Old 27th October 2015, 05:21 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Science happens when you take what is known or what mathematics might suggest is possible to formulate a hypothesis. It might take decades or centuries to arrive at a technological standpoint where it would be feasible to test certain hypotheses but it doesn't make what's postulated garbage.
"Garbage" is loaded language. An unproven hypothesis based on speculation remains only a hypothesis, which has no probative, descriptive, or predictive value. Therefore it is improper for you to look for proof of your preferred interpretation for a dream in one. You keep trying to redefine science to leave out the parts you can't satisfy.

Again, believe what you want. Just don't call it scientifically supported when it patently isn't.
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Old 27th October 2015, 05:33 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
It depends on whether you consider consciousness to be the soul.
That would be a category error. Consciousness is a process, an activity, something our brains do. The soul is supposedly some kind of vaguely defined object, or substance, or entity - isn't it?

Quote:
In my belief, I think that we use the brain as a lens to focus our self awareness, or soul, or " I am alive" feeling to experience this 4th dimensional reality.
If the brain is just a 'lens', how then can the effect of drugs on the brain radically change someone's sense of self-awareness, and damage to certain areas of the brain can cause them to assert they are actually dead?

Quote:
Except his made up word for this self awareness/soul/ muchy muchness is perceptronium. I'm not clear on why he chose that term, it sounds like a Transformer's name, like Optimus Prime, and no one will take that seriously.
"Perceptronium" - a state of matter that perceives. It's a little hokey, but he likes a snappy soundbite. Let me know when he stops talking mathematics and starts talking about souls.
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Old 27th October 2015, 05:49 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
What was the you knowing without a doubt that your mother visited you after she died?
Was that according to you scientific thought or speculation?

Your emotional need lies in your need to 'take care of unfinished business'.
Your mother doesn't need anything anymore, she's gone, for good.
You should have done that while she was alive, you didn't.
See here:
My belief is just that. You are making an assumption about what the dream was about, it wasn't about me, it was something my mother wanted me to do to prevent something from happening. Other than that, the dream wasn't about me at all, I had no unfinished business.
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Old 27th October 2015, 05:55 PM   #417
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
That would be a category error. Consciousness is a process, an activity, something our brains do. The soul is supposedly some kind of vaguely defined object, or substance, or entity - isn't it?
I use the terms as meaning the same thing, but there is no evidence that a soul exists.

Quote:
If the brain is just a 'lens', how then can the effect of drugs on the brain radically change someone's sense of self-awareness, and damage to certain areas of the brain can cause them to assert they are actually dead?
If you are looking through a microscope and the lens is dirty, scratched, or the illumination isn't adjusted correctly, what you see will be distorted or you won't see anything at all. Drugs and physical damage do the same thing to the processes of the brain.

Quote:
"Perceptronium" - a state of matter that perceives. It's a little hokey, but he likes a snappy soundbite. Let me know when he stops talking mathematics and starts talking about souls.
Will do assuming he goes in that direction.
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Old 27th October 2015, 06:01 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
"Garbage" is loaded language. An unproven hypothesis based on speculation remains only a hypothesis, which has no probative, descriptive, or predictive value. Therefore it is improper for you to look for proof of your preferred interpretation for a dream in one. You keep trying to redefine science to leave out the parts you can't satisfy.

Again, believe what you want. Just don't call it scientifically supported when it patently isn't.
Many hypotheses are a synthesis of other conclusions from various disciplines of science. I didn't do anything any different except suggest it indicated that something of "us" is capable of surviving physical death. Evidently if the conclusion is unacceptable then the degree in which you accept the hypotheses on which it was based becomes questionable. The worst thing you can say is that I'm biased, but the same could be said for your position.
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Old 27th October 2015, 06:06 PM   #419
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Many hypotheses are a synthesis of other conclusions from various disciplines of science. I didn't do anything any different except suggest it indicated that something of "us" is capable of surviving physical death. Evidently if the conclusion is unacceptable then the degree in which you accept the hypotheses on which it was based becomes questionable. The worst thing you can say is that I'm biased, but the same could be said for your position.
Well no, your position can be said to be biased and unsupported by the evidence.
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Old 27th October 2015, 06:07 PM   #420
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Quote:
Red herring. Your premise is rejected because it lacks evidence, not because your critics are somehow biased.
You said communication from my mother after death was impossible therefore you have doubts about the existence of an afterlife. Is it not fair to assume you are an atheist? Or can atheist embrace an afterlife with no particular godhead? I sincerely don't know, I thought it was an all or nothing proposition.

Quote:
Non sequitur. Science is malleable because it adapts to new evidence. It is not subjective, and takes great pains to distance itself from any semblance of subjectivity.
Science isn't subjective but the people deciding which hypothesis or theory is best supported certainly are.
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Old 27th October 2015, 06:20 PM   #421
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Evidently if the conclusion is unacceptable then the degree in which you accept the hypotheses on which it was based becomes questionable.
Hypotheses are accepted as conclusions when they are tested against the evidence and emerge victorious. Until then they are still hypotheses and therefore do not have the power to explain or predict anything.

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The worst thing you can say is that I'm biased, but the same could be said for your position.
No. It is not "biased" to decline to accept unevidenced hypotheses. Our positions are in no way equivalent.
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Old 27th October 2015, 06:29 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
You said communication from my mother after death was impossible...
Actually I said nothing of the sort. But I will now say that there is no appreciable evidence for the existence of an afterlife. Hence by subversion of support there is no evidence of communication with an afterlife.

You on the other hand have affirmatively claimed that your dead mother communicated with you. I am merely disputing that claim.

Quote:
...therefore you have doubts about the existence of an afterlife.
Non sequitur. One can, for example, believe in an afterlife without assuming communication is possible between that condition and this.

Quote:
Is it not fair to assume you are an atheist?
It is neither fair nor helpful to assume I am or am not an atheist. You seem to be frantically switching between brushes with which to paint your critics.

Quote:
Or can atheist embrace an afterlife with no particular godhead? I sincerely don't know, I thought it was an all or nothing proposition.
Atheism is completely orthogonal to this discussion. The existence of a deity is not part of any pertinent line of reasoning. You either have evidence of an afterlife or you do not. Then you either have evidence of communication between that situation and this one, or you do not. Since you've already admitted you have evidence for neither of these propositions (just speculation), then why aren't we done already?

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Science isn't subjective but the people deciding which hypothesis or theory is best supported certainly are.
No. Again, you really know nothing about science.

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Old 27th October 2015, 06:50 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by Mashuna View Post
For me, it seems as though you don't understand any of the theories you're basing your speculation on. Instead, you're starting with your conclusion then trying to find key words or phrases in popular science that you can retrofit into your argument.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm no whiz at physics. That said, the theoretical part interests me enough that I try to keep up with it. I wasn't looking to retrofit anything, but as I read about how the different dimensions that are theoretically there, the thought did occur to me that we might exist in the others if we exist in the 1st,2nd,3rd, and 4th dimension. Until that point, I'ld visualized a dimensional world as looking like a layer cake, but based on what we see or experience here now, our perception is integrated. Why would these other dimensions be "over there" or "somewhere else"? If they truly exist they would simply be an extension of what is already perceptually here even if we can't see it.

From there, my idea grew. I started searching for some kind of analogy to what the world would look like from those perspectives. My spiritual beliefs kind of disappeared into what I consider to be an idea of what reality/life in total would be like if we exist on multidimensional levels. If we could see it all at once it would be overwhelming like the hallucinations of schizophrenics or some kind of sensory disorders related to autism. I believe we are just fine the way we are seeing what we see in the here and now if we want to make any kind of sense of life.
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Old 27th October 2015, 06:52 PM   #424
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I wasn't looking to retrofit anything...
Nonsense, you explicitly told us you were looking for possible explanations for your belief and latched onto speculative metaphysics to do so.

Last edited by JayUtah; 27th October 2015 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 27th October 2015, 09:56 PM   #425
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I was a ghost hunter, long before it was cool.

I spent a lot of time in the dark, I toured some really cool historic places, met a lot of interesting people, and saw some weird stuff.

None of what I did was science.

I learned a lot. I learned history, I learned building construction (the basics), I learned how heating and plumbing works, and I learned a lot about people.

The most important thing I learned is that no matter what I saw (or think I saw) I have no proof, and I have nothing that I could write up as a scientific paper to submit. That's just the way of the world.

I have discovered that Infrasound is a bigger deal than people suspect, and may have effects on humans that are just now being explored. Those effects line up with many of the phenomenon attributed to ghosts.

I have learned that some people get really mad when you tell them their house is not haunted.

My interest in the paranormal led me back to college where I have taken a number of science classes (Oceanography, Marine Biology, Environmental Science, and Geology 1). These have left me with complete confidence in the scientific method. Scientists have open minds about a great many things, but for those things to be accepted they need to be solid, repeatable(verified) data, a cross-section of physical evidence (collected samples), and it should lead to a predictable outcome.

This hasn't changed my beliefs, it has reshaped them.

Today it's not about seeing ghosts but WHY are ghosts seen. To me this is the operative question, and it saves me from freezing my butt off in an abandoned jail at 2:00 AM.

As for dying? I was 10, the nurse gave me an overdose of medication (she was new) that stopped my heart. I was gone for 10 minutes until they could re-establish sinus rythmn. One second I was vomiting and the next I was on a table with my shirt off and an air mask on my face.

That's all she wrote.
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Old 28th October 2015, 01:19 AM   #426
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Jodie you are backfilling in classic fallacy style.

The blinders are on and you are freely browsing sciencish fiction for just-so stories.
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Old 28th October 2015, 01:54 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Which post number?
#370. The one I quoted in my post.
So, how about it? Would you mind addressing my points?
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Old 28th October 2015, 02:09 AM   #428
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
My belief is just that. ...
Except that you appear to have absolute certainty about your mother visiting you in a dream.
To you, it's much more than a belief.

Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
... You are making an assumption about what the dream was about, it wasn't about me, it was something my mother wanted me to do to prevent something from happening. Other than that, the dream wasn't about me at all, I had no unfinished business.
Your mother doesn't want anything anymore, she is gone.
It however appears that you have quite a bit of unfinished business.
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Old 28th October 2015, 05:28 AM   #429
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I was a ghost hunter, long before it was cool.

I spent a lot of time in the dark, I toured some really cool historic places, met a lot of interesting people, and saw some weird stuff.

None of what I did was science.

I learned a lot. I learned history, I learned building construction (the basics), I learned how heating and plumbing works, and I learned a lot about people.

The most important thing I learned is that no matter what I saw (or think I saw) I have no proof, and I have nothing that I could write up as a scientific paper to submit. That's just the way of the world.

I have discovered that Infrasound is a bigger deal than people suspect, and may have effects on humans that are just now being explored. Those effects line up with many of the phenomenon attributed to ghosts.

I have learned that some people get really mad when you tell them their house is not haunted.

My interest in the paranormal led me back to college where I have taken a number of science classes (Oceanography, Marine Biology, Environmental Science, and Geology 1). These have left me with complete confidence in the scientific method. Scientists have open minds about a great many things, but for those things to be accepted they need to be solid, repeatable(verified) data, a cross-section of physical evidence (collected samples), and it should lead to a predictable outcome.

This hasn't changed my beliefs, it has reshaped them.

Today it's not about seeing ghosts but WHY are ghosts seen. To me this is the operative question, and it saves me from freezing my butt off in an abandoned jail at 2:00 AM.

As for dying? I was 10, the nurse gave me an overdose of medication (she was new) that stopped my heart. I was gone for 10 minutes until they could re-establish sinus rythmn. One second I was vomiting and the next I was on a table with my shirt off and an air mask on my face.

That's all she wrote.
This. A thousand times this, and we are seeing it in spades here.

Jodie strikes me in the way some others I have seen here: intelligent, fairly well read, capable of analytic thought, no more prone to fantasy or confabulation than the rest of us. My hypothesis (and it is only a hypothesis with no evidence whatsoever) is that such people have grown up in an environment in which they are generally the big intellectual fish in their ponds and have never been seriously challenged about their positions. Maybe the lack of challenge is because others are simply convinced by what is said or maybe no one wants to bother to make the challenge. Regardless, they have a lifetime of having their sense of being right constantly reinforced.

Then they come here and everything that has wowed people in the past, everything that has been met either with silence or agreement or even congratulations on the deep thinking, everything gets challenged. Not only is the challenge itself a surprise -- a slap in the mental face for which they are totally unprepared -- it is solid, and it highlights that what had been considered right is actually wrong.

That's not a dispassionate discussion. It is not something the person can remain detached from and say "you are correct; that particular position is either incorrect or irrelevant to what I thought was a valid conclusion." It is instead a discussion about social standing. Being told one is no longer king of the mountain and in fact never really has been on the mountain at all comes as a shock.

That's what I see happening here. Jodie is floundering, and it's a shame, because she is intelligent. She is well read. She can be quite funny. And she has the ability to think critically, analytically, skeptically.
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Old 28th October 2015, 05:37 AM   #430
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
This. A thousand times this, and we are seeing it in spades here.

Jodie strikes me in the way some others I have seen here: intelligent, fairly well read, capable of analytic thought, no more prone to fantasy or confabulation than the rest of us. My hypothesis (and it is only a hypothesis with no evidence whatsoever) is that such people have grown up in an environment in which they are generally the big intellectual fish in their ponds and have never been seriously challenged about their positions. Maybe the lack of challenge is because others are simply convinced by what is said or maybe no one wants to bother to make the challenge. Regardless, they have a lifetime of having their sense of being right constantly reinforced.

Then they come here and everything that has wowed people in the past, everything that has been met either with silence or agreement or even congratulations on the deep thinking, everything gets challenged. Not only is the challenge itself a surprise -- a slap in the mental face for which they are totally unprepared -- it is solid, and it highlights that what had been considered right is actually wrong.

That's not a dispassionate discussion. It is not something the person can remain detached from and say "you are correct; that particular position is either incorrect or irrelevant to what I thought was a valid conclusion." It is instead a discussion about social standing. Being told one is no longer king of the mountain and in fact never really has been on the mountain at all comes as a shock.

That's what I see happening here. Jodie is floundering, and it's a shame, because she is intelligent. She is well read. She can be quite funny. And she has the ability to think critically, analytically, skeptically.
Well said!
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Old 28th October 2015, 09:00 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
It is instead a discussion about social standing. Being told one is no longer king of the mountain and in fact never really has been on the mountain at all comes as a shock.
I agree; well said. Back in my teenage years, my friends and I delighted in the prospect of metaphysics and multiple dimensions and time travel. Speculating about it was cool beans. But as we grow older, the mountains change. Metaphysics still interest me, of course. But the mountain now is explanatory power, not gee-whiz, mind-blown hypotheticals.
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Old 28th October 2015, 09:45 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Science isn't subjective but the people deciding which hypothesis or theory is best supported certainly are.
You don't understand that the scientific method is designed specifically to remove bias and subjectivity from influencing the outcomes of experimentation.

Interpretations of QM are not rigourous expreiments in QFT; they are very complicated games that can only be seriously played by very educated people who have devoted years of their lives to studying mathematics, then years studying the subtlities of QFT that can only be understood in mathematical terms, and then studying the experimental results of particle colliders and other devices, which produce outcomes that even they cannot explain all aspects of. It makes them wonder what the explaination of the observed behavior of the universe means. The mystery of the reason the universe behaves as it is observed to behave is what the different interpretations (thought experiments) of QM are all about.

So... When some theologian who hasn't studied QM and doesn't even begin to understand the complexities of it says, "our souls exist on a higher plane because quantum.", I find no compelling reason to think the aforementioned thelolgian is wise.
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Old 28th October 2015, 10:07 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by HighRiser View Post
So... When some theologian (or Deepak Chopra)who hasn't studied QM and doesn't even begin to understand the complexities of it says, "our souls exist on a higher plane because quantum.", I find no compelling reason to think the aforementioned thelolgian is wise.
Pardon my addition.
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Old 28th October 2015, 10:59 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Pardon my addition.
Actually, I was thinking of Chopra when I typed that.
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Old 28th October 2015, 04:32 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I use the terms as meaning the same thing, but there is no evidence that a soul exists.
If there's no evidence that a soul exists and you're using it as synonymous with consciousness, why confuse the issue by using it at all? Just use 'consciousness'.

Quote:
If you are looking through a microscope and the lens is dirty, scratched, or the illumination isn't adjusted correctly, what you see will be distorted or you won't see anything at all.
By that glib analogy, the equivalent would be dirty or scratched lens making a fly's leg look like a wing or an eye.

Trite analogies apart, you need to recognise that the very science you claim to be using to support your fantasy tells us that it's impossible. Here (again) is Sean Carroll's video that explains it:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

As he says, you don't have to accept quantum field theory and its implications, but if you reject it in order to indulge in speculative hypotheses that contradict it, you can't claim to use it in support of those hypotheses.
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Old 28th October 2015, 05:31 PM   #436
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
This. A thousand times this, and we are seeing it in spades here.

Jodie strikes me in the way some others I have seen here: intelligent, fairly well read, capable of analytic thought, no more prone to fantasy or confabulation than the rest of us. My hypothesis (and it is only a hypothesis with no evidence whatsoever) is that such people have grown up in an environment in which they are generally the big intellectual fish in their ponds and have never been seriously challenged about their positions. Maybe the lack of challenge is because others are simply convinced by what is said or maybe no one wants to bother to make the challenge. Regardless, they have a lifetime of having their sense of being right constantly reinforced.

Then they come here and everything that has wowed people in the past, everything that has been met either with silence or agreement or even congratulations on the deep thinking, everything gets challenged. Not only is the challenge itself a surprise -- a slap in the mental face for which they are totally unprepared -- it is solid, and it highlights that what had been considered right is actually wrong.

That's not a dispassionate discussion. It is not something the person can remain detached from and say "you are correct; that particular position is either incorrect or irrelevant to what I thought was a valid conclusion." It is instead a discussion about social standing. Being told one is no longer king of the mountain and in fact never really has been on the mountain at all comes as a shock.

That's what I see happening here. Jodie is floundering, and it's a shame, because she is intelligent. She is well read. She can be quite funny. And she has the ability to think critically, analytically, skeptically.
Agreed.

More to the point, in my experience the ghost is what makes someone feel special, makes them interesting, or the center of attention. Again, this thread is a good example where you have two people posting about their experiences and not the OP, and have gone off on wild tangents which have nothing to do with floor boards and footstep sounds.

I feel it's safe to say that everyone here has had at least one dream that had a profound effect on them in some way, but it was specifically personal to you, and shouldn't be held on the same level as the real, physical world.
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Old 28th October 2015, 07:18 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
This. A thousand times this, and we are seeing it in spades here.

Jodie strikes me in the way some others I have seen here: intelligent, fairly well read, capable of analytic thought, no more prone to fantasy or confabulation than the rest of us. My hypothesis (and it is only a hypothesis with no evidence whatsoever) is that such people have grown up in an environment in which they are generally the big intellectual fish in their ponds and have never been seriously challenged about their positions. Maybe the lack of challenge is because others are simply convinced by what is said or maybe no one wants to bother to make the challenge. Regardless, they have a lifetime of having their sense of being right constantly reinforced.

Then they come here and everything that has wowed people in the past, everything that has been met either with silence or agreement or even congratulations on the deep thinking, everything gets challenged. Not only is the challenge itself a surprise -- a slap in the mental face for which they are totally unprepared -- it is solid, and it highlights that what had been considered right is actually wrong.

That's not a dispassionate discussion. It is not something the person can remain detached from and say "you are correct; that particular position is either incorrect or irrelevant to what I thought was a valid conclusion." It is instead a discussion about social standing. Being told one is no longer king of the mountain and in fact never really has been on the mountain at all comes as a shock.

That's what I see happening here. Jodie is floundering, and it's a shame, because she is intelligent. She is well read. She can be quite funny. And she has the ability to think critically, analytically, skeptically.
Garrette I don't think I've been emotional or upset about my discussions regarding the afterlife. This isn't the first thread I've had this type of discussion about the topic and so far they've been fairly civil, for the most part. I actually enjoy them very much.

I grew up in the bible belt and my Dad was a rocket scientist who worked under Werner Von Braun at Red Stone Arsenal in Alabama. Huntsville was a unique little town since there was a high number of professionals living there during the glory days of the space program. Despite it being in the deep south I was lucky enough to receive a very good education because of the tax base and demographics of the population.

However, were I to announce that I received a message from my dead mother I'ld get push back even in the deep south, even from other Christians depending on what denomination they belonged. It would be different from what I'm hearing here, it would go something like this " a demon tried to change the future", or some such nonsense. Life is full of give and take. I've met my fair share along the way. If I took all of this personally do you really think I'ld be coming back for more time and time again? To me, people like JayUtah that resort to cussing you are people that are dealing with their own issues and happen to take it out on you on the forum because there will be little or no repercussions from it. It really has nothing to do with me other than how I choose to respond.

This just happens to be one of my favorite subjects to talk about. I remember over hearing my dad and his coworkers discussing the "many universe" theory in the early 60's when I was a child. I was so impressed by the conversation that, as a child, I reread "Alice in Wonderland" and "Alice Through The Looking Glass" hoping to find clues on how to get to these other places. I was also hung up on "The Wizard of Oz" for the same reason because this was the only way I could understand what other dimensions might look like at the time. That's the extent of my emotional attachment to the topic. It reminds me of home.
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Old 28th October 2015, 07:37 PM   #438
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Agreed.

More to the point, in my experience the ghost is what makes someone feel special, makes them interesting, or the center of attention. Again, this thread is a good example where you have two people posting about their experiences and not the OP, and have gone off on wild tangents which have nothing to do with floor boards and footstep sounds.

I feel it's safe to say that everyone here has had at least one dream that had a profound effect on them in some way, but it was specifically personal to you, and shouldn't be held on the same level as the real, physical world.
It isn't the physical world, that's the whole point. Neither are those other dimensions that are curled up and entwined with our physical reality. If we exist in the 1st 4 dimensions why would we assume it ends there?

I did mention ghosts. I think it was in response to one of your posts earlier. If you were a ghost hunter then you ought to be familiar with the theory of what causes poltergeist activity. Did you ever encounter a case like that during one of your hunts?

My theory is similar but it doesn't hinge on the psychological aspects so much. If what I think is true about our multidimensional world then consciousness might form a type of conduit for the activity to manifest.
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Old 28th October 2015, 08:05 PM   #439
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Given that you're doing exactly what I said you were doing, would you mind now answering my questions?
Consciousness as an emergent property of brains? If the brain functions as a lens for the consciousness that resides in all of the dimensions that the mathematical theory states exists then that is exactly what the research would reflect.

There is no consciousness outside of our brains. A brain would have to be present for the consciousness to express itself in our physical reality. My idea is that the brain works as a lens or receiver for that consciousness, the one that animates the body. What you see in the brain is the chemical process that allows that to happen.

Revising our experiments. I don't think that's so, the goal of that research is to understand how to fix brain injuries and to create AI. If you aren't thinking of the brain as a receiver why would you adapt your testing to look for that? They are simply testing processes to replicate function or repair damage.

Revising my assumptions. I don't think I'm wrong in interpreting and synthesizing the research that is a synthesis of various disciplines. My assumption that it was actually my mother might be wrong. It could have been me in that other dimension using that dream figure of my mother to try to warn me of some impending doom, possibly change it, or be prepared to deal with it. I say this because if we are truly multidimensional beings then there would be no need for my dead mother to warn me of anything in a dream, she could simply tell me in that other dimension, or I would see it for myself.
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Old 29th October 2015, 12:51 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Consciousness as an emergent property of brains? If the brain functions as a lens for the consciousness that resides in all of the dimensions that the mathematical theory states exists then that is exactly what the research would reflect.

There is no consciousness outside of our brains. A brain would have to be present for the consciousness to express itself in our physical reality. My idea is that the brain works as a lens or receiver for that consciousness, the one that animates the body. What you see in the brain is the chemical process that allows that to happen.

Revising our experiments. I don't think that's so, the goal of that research is to understand how to fix brain injuries and to create AI. If you aren't thinking of the brain as a receiver why would you adapt your testing to look for that? They are simply testing processes to replicate function or repair damage.

Revising my assumptions. I don't think I'm wrong in interpreting and synthesizing the research that is a synthesis of various disciplines. My assumption that it was actually my mother might be wrong. It could have been me in that other dimension using that dream figure of my mother to try to warn me of some impending doom, possibly change it, or be prepared to deal with it. I say this because if we are truly multidimensional beings then there would be no need for my dead mother to warn me of anything in a dream, she could simply tell me in that other dimension, or I would see it for myself.
No.
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