A supernatural hand mark? - Page 4

thaiboxerken · 28th December 2020, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by abaddon

Then explain this...

What on earth is a "convinced atheist"? Convinced of what, exactly?

He probably, mistakenly believes that an atheist is a person that believes no gods exist.

suren · 28th December 2020, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by abaddon

What on earth is a "convinced atheist"? Convinced of what, exactly?

Being convinced that no god(s) exist.

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

He probably, mistakenly believes that an atheist is a person that believes no gods exist.

I mentioned that some atheists do some don't. Not all atheists are convinced atheists. Atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god(s). It can be either just lack of belief in god or a belief (sometimes even conviction) in god's non existence.

abaddon · 28th December 2020, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by suren

Being convinced that no god(s) exist.

The you do not understand what atheism is. Why am I unsurprised.

Originally Posted by suren

I mentioned that some atheists do some don't. Not all atheists are convinced atheists.

There it is. You somehow think that atheism is a belief system.

It isn't.

Originally Posted by suren

Atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god(s). It can be either just lack of belief in god or a belief (sometimes even conviction) in god's non existence.

Now you are simply making stuff up out of nowhere.

Tell you what. Show me the atheist creed. Can you do that?

Thermal · 28th December 2020, 02:15 PM

suren. Bro. Don't do this. This is a well-worn road that you will not have fun travelling.

theprestige · 28th December 2020, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

suren. Bro. Don't do this. This is a well-worn road that you will not have fun travelling.

I mean, he's having fun doing the whole "I get that their claims are empty but I still feel like maybe they're not" thing. So why not have fun with the whole "slapfight about atheism as a term" thing?

Nay_Sayer · 28th December 2020, 09:35 PM

Oh do let him continue. It's been a day since I've witnessed a good flogging.

Carrot Flower King · 29th December 2020, 04:46 AM

What? You mean all you other atheists out there don't go to the Church of The Non-God? And listen to the vicar recite verses from the Book of The Non-God, then expound on their meaning and applicability to everyday life? Then sing some hymns in praise of The Non-God? Did you not have to attend the equivalent of confirmation/church membership classes in order to be admitted as a full member in good standing of the Church of The Non-God?

Wow! I'm amazed!

theprestige · 29th December 2020, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

What? You mean all you other atheists out there don't go to the Church of The Non-God? And listen to the vicar recite verses from the Book of The Non-God, then expound on their meaning and applicability to everyday life? Then sing some hymns in praise of The Non-God? Did you not have to attend the equivalent of confirmation/church membership classes in order to be admitted as a full member in good standing of the Church of The Non-God?

Wow! I'm amazed!

I dunno. The R&P subforum here does get kinda preachy and dogmatic from time to time. Complete with regular sermons to the choir from the usual suspects. And our resident atheists do have a tendency to swarm any discussion with excerpts from the atheist chatechism. Chapter 1, Verse 1: "Atheists aren't religious!"

My view is that you don't have to be a theist to be religious. Communists and atheists provide clear examples of this principle.

Thermal · 29th December 2020, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I mean, he's having fun doing the whole "I get that their claims are empty but I still feel like maybe they're not" thing.

Well, the 'let's toy with this' thing is a position I'm sympathetic to. It beats the hell out of committed dogma.

Quote:

So why not have fun with the whole "slapfight about atheism as a term" thing?

Because its less a slapfight and more of a gang rape. I can hear knuckles being cracked and some preliminary stretching and limbering up in the background. Time and place, and this is neither.

Jack by the hedge · 29th December 2020, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by suren

... When I was teenager my mother showed me videos about Baba Vanga and her alleged abilities "that left scientists and skeptics speechless".

It's heartening that you put quotes around the bit about the speechless scientists. It's just the sort of inverted appeal to authority people seem to like use to dress up their just-pretend story to make it sound more impressive or authentic.

Sometimes it's fun to pretend, but it is just pretend. Dinosaurs were real. Supernatural mystical stuff is just pretend.

Minoosh · 29th December 2020, 04:14 PM

I am so naive that it would never occur to me to (dishonestly) say, "I don't believe X, but what can I say to my friend who is claiming X?"

X being a conspiracy theory, a political claim, an example of the supernatural etc.

Why would people do this? For attention? OK, I will and have paid attention to people who create threads like this, if the subject interests me. It gets frustrating when a dozen or more explanations or possibilities are offered, and the thread starter says, "OK, I thought so too, but my friend is convinced ... X!"

Are these posters necessarily being disingenuous?

I enjoy watching points being made back and forth, but if one side is just yanking the other's chain, it takes me a long time to catch on.

In a similar thread I saw one forum member say something like, "The more interesting question is why you have such anxiety over unexplained trivialities." I though that was very insightful.

xterra · 29th December 2020, 05:08 PM

Minoosh,

Here is one possible answer to the reason people continue to return to the same sort of religion-based topic, in the case of the OP, various miracle or supernatural claims:

Title: "Scrupulosity: Where OCD Meets Religion, Faith, and Belief"

Website: https://ocdla.com/scrupulosity-ocd-r...th-belief-2107

Minoosh · 29th December 2020, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by xterra

Minoosh,

Here is one possible answer to the reason people continue to return to the same sort of religion-based topic, in the case of the OP, various miracle or supernatural claims:

Title: "Scrupulosity: Where OCD Meets Religion, Faith, and Belief"

Website: https://ocdla.com/scrupulosity-ocd-r...th-belief-2107

This is kind of scrupulosity in reverse: fearing that one is not evidence-based enough. As in, "I don't think there's a supernatural element; now convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that my friend is wrong."

Interesting link!

Lplus · 30th December 2020, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

I am so naive that it would never occur to me to (dishonestly) say, "I don't believe X, but what can I say to my friend who is claiming X?"

X being a conspiracy theory, a political claim, an example of the supernatural etc.

Why would people do this? For attention? OK, I will and have paid attention to people who create threads like this, if the subject interests me. It gets frustrating when a dozen or more explanations or possibilities are offered, and the thread starter says, "OK, I thought so too, but my friend is convinced ... X!"

Are these posters necessarily being disingenuous?

I enjoy watching points being made back and forth, but if one side is just yanking the other's chain, it takes me a long time to catch on.

In a similar thread I saw one forum member say something like, "The more interesting question is why you have such anxiety over unexplained trivialities." I though that was very insightful.

Sometimes I wonder if the "friend" actually exists.

sackett · 30th December 2020, 10:17 AM

Supernatural miraculous HAND MARKS?!? On some yob's ARM?!?? Is that good enough for the religionists?

Pfui und Blatt, say I. MY GOD RULES NO SUCH SORRY LITTLE CULT. My GOD reveals Himself in a riven sky filled with terror, with fire-written words of doom and the smashing of solar systems! No doubt, no unbelief can survive an instant of HIS terrible revelation!

Nothing less is worthy of MY GOD! So spare this REAL Believer your pawing little runny-nosed miracles and wonders. On that day that will never end, your tears and phlegm and holy Mary's milk will dry to powder --

Gack. Chistianism sures goes in for body fluids. "And came there forth blood and water."

That's enough queasiness for today.

thaiboxerken · 30th December 2020, 10:19 AM

Over a decade ago some guy on Yahoo chat was trying to convince me his god was real because he coughed up a hair that he didn't know was on his mashed potatoes. It was a miracle!

sackett · 30th December 2020, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Over a decade ago some guy on Yahoo chat was trying to convince me his god was real because he coughed up a hair that he didn't know was on his mashed potatoes. It was a miracle!

Now I can add puke to the Holy Roman Fluids.

theprestige · 30th December 2020, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Lplus

Sometimes I wonder if the "friend" actually exists.

suren seems to have painted himself into a corner where he's so weak-willed that he can't cut himself loose from the friend's empty claims and poor reasoning... But he's so strong-willed that he can't just accept the refutations and counter-arguments he's asking for here.

steenkh · 31st December 2020, 09:54 AM

I do not see the point in questioning Suren’s motives. Whether he believes or not, whether the friend exists or not, my view of the claims are the same, and the arguments stay the same.

28th December 2020, 01:45 PM	#121
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,711	Originally Posted by abaddon Then explain this... What on earth is a "convinced atheist"? Convinced of what, exactly? He probably, mistakenly believes that an atheist is a person that believes no gods exist.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

28th December 2020, 02:05 PM	#122
suren Scholar Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Armenia, Yerevan Posts: 107	Originally Posted by abaddon What on earth is a "convinced atheist"? Convinced of what, exactly? Being convinced that no god(s) exist. Originally Posted by thaiboxerken He probably, mistakenly believes that an atheist is a person that believes no gods exist. I mentioned that some atheists do some don't. Not all atheists are convinced atheists. Atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god(s). It can be either just lack of belief in god or a belief (sometimes even conviction) in god's non existence.
	Last edited by suren; 28th December 2020 at 02:09 PM.

28th December 2020, 02:15 PM	#123
abaddon Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Republic of Ireland Posts: 21,302	Originally Posted by suren Being convinced that no god(s) exist. The you do not understand what atheism is. Why am I unsurprised. Originally Posted by suren I mentioned that some atheists do some don't. Not all atheists are convinced atheists. There it is. You somehow think that atheism is a belief system. It isn't. Originally Posted by suren Atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god(s). It can be either just lack of belief in god or a belief (sometimes even conviction) in god's non existence. Now you are simply making stuff up out of nowhere. Tell you what. Show me the atheist creed. Can you do that?
	__________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...

28th December 2020, 02:15 PM	#124
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,527	suren. Bro. Don't do this. This is a well-worn road that you will not have fun travelling.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

28th December 2020, 09:35 PM	#126
Nay_Sayer I say nay! Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 3,847	Oh do let him continue. It's been a day since I've witnessed a good flogging.
	__________________ I am 100% confident all psychics and mediums are frauds. If you see a Nazi. Egg them

28th December 2020, 03:10 PM	#125
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,661	Originally Posted by Thermal suren. Bro. Don't do this. This is a well-worn road that you will not have fun travelling. I mean, he's having fun doing the whole "I get that their claims are empty but I still feel like maybe they're not" thing. So why not have fun with the whole "slapfight about atheism as a term" thing?

29th December 2020, 04:46 AM	#127
Carrot Flower King Muse Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 755	What? You mean all you other atheists out there don't go to the Church of The Non-God? And listen to the vicar recite verses from the Book of The Non-God, then expound on their meaning and applicability to everyday life? Then sing some hymns in praise of The Non-God? Did you not have to attend the equivalent of confirmation/church membership classes in order to be admitted as a full member in good standing of the Church of The Non-God? Wow! I'm amazed!

29th December 2020, 08:03 AM	#128
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,661	Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King What? You mean all you other atheists out there don't go to the Church of The Non-God? And listen to the vicar recite verses from the Book of The Non-God, then expound on their meaning and applicability to everyday life? Then sing some hymns in praise of The Non-God? Did you not have to attend the equivalent of confirmation/church membership classes in order to be admitted as a full member in good standing of the Church of The Non-God? Wow! I'm amazed! I dunno. The R&P subforum here does get kinda preachy and dogmatic from time to time. Complete with regular sermons to the choir from the usual suspects. And our resident atheists do have a tendency to swarm any discussion with excerpts from the atheist chatechism. Chapter 1, Verse 1: "Atheists aren't religious!" My view is that you don't have to be a theist to be religious. Communists and atheists provide clear examples of this principle.

29th December 2020, 09:49 AM	#129
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 13,527	Originally Posted by theprestige I mean, he's having fun doing the whole "I get that their claims are empty but I still feel like maybe they're not" thing. Well, the 'let's toy with this' thing is a position I'm sympathetic to. It beats the hell out of committed dogma. Quote: So why not have fun with the whole "slapfight about atheism as a term" thing? Because its less a slapfight and more of a gang rape. I can hear knuckles being cracked and some preliminary stretching and limbering up in the background. Time and place, and this is neither.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

29th December 2020, 10:32 AM	#130
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 10,883	Originally Posted by suren ... When I was teenager my mother showed me videos about Baba Vanga and her alleged abilities "that left scientists and skeptics speechless". It's heartening that you put quotes around the bit about the speechless scientists. It's just the sort of inverted appeal to authority people seem to like use to dress up their just-pretend story to make it sound more impressive or authentic. Sometimes it's fun to pretend, but it is just pretend. Dinosaurs were real. Supernatural mystical stuff is just pretend.

29th December 2020, 04:14 PM	#131
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,239	I am so naive that it would never occur to me to (dishonestly) say, "I don't believe X, but what can I say to my friend who is claiming X?" X being a conspiracy theory, a political claim, an example of the supernatural etc. Why would people do this? For attention? OK, I will and have paid attention to people who create threads like this, if the subject interests me. It gets frustrating when a dozen or more explanations or possibilities are offered, and the thread starter says, "OK, I thought so too, but my friend is convinced ... X!" Are these posters necessarily being disingenuous? I enjoy watching points being made back and forth, but if one side is just yanking the other's chain, it takes me a long time to catch on. In a similar thread I saw one forum member say something like, "The more interesting question is why you have such anxiety over unexplained trivialities." I though that was very insightful.

29th December 2020, 05:08 PM	#132
xterra So far, so good... Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: On the outskirts of Nowhere; the middle was too crowded Posts: 3,710	Minoosh, Here is one possible answer to the reason people continue to return to the same sort of religion-based topic, in the case of the OP, various miracle or supernatural claims: Title: "Scrupulosity: Where OCD Meets Religion, Faith, and Belief" Website: https://ocdla.com/scrupulosity-ocd-r...th-belief-2107
	__________________ Over we go....

29th December 2020, 08:14 PM	#133
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,239	Originally Posted by xterra Minoosh, Here is one possible answer to the reason people continue to return to the same sort of religion-based topic, in the case of the OP, various miracle or supernatural claims: Title: "Scrupulosity: Where OCD Meets Religion, Faith, and Belief" Website: https://ocdla.com/scrupulosity-ocd-r...th-belief-2107 This is kind of scrupulosity in reverse: fearing that one is not evidence-based enough. As in, "I don't think there's a supernatural element; now convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that my friend is wrong." Interesting link!

30th December 2020, 05:17 AM	#134
Lplus Muse Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 579	Originally Posted by Minoosh I am so naive that it would never occur to me to (dishonestly) say, "I don't believe X, but what can I say to my friend who is claiming X?" X being a conspiracy theory, a political claim, an example of the supernatural etc. Why would people do this? For attention? OK, I will and have paid attention to people who create threads like this, if the subject interests me. It gets frustrating when a dozen or more explanations or possibilities are offered, and the thread starter says, "OK, I thought so too, but my friend is convinced ... X!" Are these posters necessarily being disingenuous? I enjoy watching points being made back and forth, but if one side is just yanking the other's chain, it takes me a long time to catch on. In a similar thread I saw one forum member say something like, "The more interesting question is why you have such anxiety over unexplained trivialities." I though that was very insightful. Sometimes I wonder if the "friend" actually exists.
Lplus Muse Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 579

30th December 2020, 10:17 AM	#135
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,382	Supernatural miraculous HAND MARKS?!? On some yob's ARM?!?? Is that good enough for the religionists? Pfui und Blatt, say I. MY GOD RULES NO SUCH SORRY LITTLE CULT. My GOD reveals Himself in a riven sky filled with terror, with fire-written words of doom and the smashing of solar systems! No doubt, no unbelief can survive an instant of HIS terrible revelation! Nothing less is worthy of MY GOD! So spare this REAL Believer your pawing little runny-nosed miracles and wonders. On that day that will never end, your tears and phlegm and holy Mary's milk will dry to powder -- Gack. Chistianism sures goes in for body fluids. "And came there forth blood and water." That's enough queasiness for today.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power. Last edited by sackett; 30th December 2020 at 10:55 AM.

30th December 2020, 10:19 AM	#136
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,711	Over a decade ago some guy on Yahoo chat was trying to convince me his god was real because he coughed up a hair that he didn't know was on his mashed potatoes. It was a miracle!
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

30th December 2020, 10:59 AM	#137
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 6,382	Oh that's just great Originally Posted by thaiboxerken Over a decade ago some guy on Yahoo chat was trying to convince me his god was real because he coughed up a hair that he didn't know was on his mashed potatoes. It was a miracle! Now I can add puke to the Holy Roman Fluids.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

30th December 2020, 11:04 AM	#138
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,661	Originally Posted by Lplus Sometimes I wonder if the "friend" actually exists. suren seems to have painted himself into a corner where he's so weak-willed that he can't cut himself loose from the friend's empty claims and poor reasoning... But he's so strong-willed that he can't just accept the refutations and counter-arguments he's asking for here.

31st December 2020, 09:54 AM	#139
steenkh Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 6,153	I do not see the point in questioning Suren’s motives. Whether he believes or not, whether the friend exists or not, my view of the claims are the same, and the arguments stay the same.
	__________________ Steen -- Jack of all trades - master of none!