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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies , Trump impeachment

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Old 21st January 2021, 04:26 PM   #1121
Cain
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Actually, The review's been ripping through Trump since at least before the election.
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
They've been ripping through him since before the 2016 election. They've never liked him, although while he was President, they frequently ran editorials in defense of his policies, but never of him.
Not really. When Trump was running for the nomination, the magazine published a special anti-Cheeto von Tweeto edition. They had to suspend and change their comment section because it was getting over-run with hard-core MAGA fools. After Trump secured the nomination, they changed their tune. Then he won the presidency (surprisingly), and most of their staffers fell in line. Some couldn't handle the pro-Trump editorial line, so they left (Jonah Goldberg followed by David French).

As for 2020 election, some have always had an uneasy relationship with Trump, but I wouldn't say they were ripping him. After he lost, sure. Most knew it was over.

They're still scumbags, including Williamson.
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Old 21st January 2021, 07:41 PM   #1122
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Not really. When Trump was running for the nomination, the magazine published a special anti-Cheeto von Tweeto edition. They had to suspend and change their comment section because it was getting over-run with hard-core MAGA fools. After Trump secured the nomination, they changed their tune. Then he won the presidency (surprisingly), and most of their staffers fell in line. Some couldn't handle the pro-Trump editorial line, so they left (Jonah Goldberg followed by David French).

As for 2020 election, some have always had an uneasy relationship with Trump, but I wouldn't say they were ripping him. After he lost, sure. Most knew it was over.

They're still scumbags, including Williamson.
Yes, but they're old money scumbags with suits that fit and banks of their own and signed pictures of Prescott Bush on the study wall, and they probably pay the stable boys, not perhaps because they like to but because it's declassé not to.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 07:04 AM   #1123
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Not seen this posted here, but two days ago McConnell said in a speech on the Senate floor that the insurrectionists were "provoked" by Trump and others, having been "fed lies". Seems a fairly strong indication that he will likely vote to convict as and when the article of impeachment reaches the Senate. He likely wouldn't vote to convict unless he knew that he had enough Republican votes for it to get through, and there were certainly reports in the preceding days that he was putting out his feelers to see where people stood.

In other words, this seems to me like reasonable evidence that, as thing currently stand, Trump is likely to be convicted.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 07:22 AM   #1124
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Any news on the attempt to impeach Biden yet?
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Old 22nd January 2021, 07:25 AM   #1125
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Any news on the attempt to impeach Biden yet?
Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Apparently the real Q revolution will happen on March 20th, so maybe we'll get an update then.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 07:29 AM   #1126
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Any news on the attempt to impeach Biden yet?
Rep Greene filed articles of impeachment against Biden already.

https://newschannel9.com/news/local/...resident-biden
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:23 AM   #1127
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
True enough, and of course that's largely my point as I think fascism is fascism whatever suit it wears, but for some style is paramount, and the ones who always seem to end up on top are the ones who can both underwrite the nutters and deride them for needing it.
I'm not quite following you here. Maybe you can define the American aristocracy more objectively, to start. Are they all fascists, by definition? Who, exactly, are "they". What are the essential characteristics that define them?
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:29 AM   #1128
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not to pick on you directly, but the exact same thing the Progressives hope to accomplish in regards to your hated "Centrists."

No the Progressive Wing of the Democratic Party knows full well it can't stand against the GOP without the more moderate old guard folks. "Well we'll just form our own party!" is a threat hoping to get more power and influence within the party.

Nobody who threatens to take their ball and go home really wants the game to end or the teams they change. They just want to be coach instead of the 3rd baseman.
The USA needs to scrap FPTP voting and the two-party system.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:33 AM   #1129
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The USA needs to scrap FPTP voting and the two-party system.
I agree 100%. But there's no nobility in refusing to play the hand you were dealt until someone changes the rules of the game.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:37 AM   #1130
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Articles of Impeachment being sent to the Senate Monday.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:38 AM   #1131
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Rep Greene filed articles of impeachment against Biden already.

https://newschannel9.com/news/local/...resident-biden
I can't find it now, but the latest story I saw on this had a spokesperson from her office saying that she had intended to file them, but hadn't because the process was more difficult than she had thought it would be.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:40 AM   #1132
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Articles of Impeachment being sent to the Senate Monday.
Damn, Greene moved fast. Biden could be out of office by lunchtime Tuesday.

Dave
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:53 AM   #1133
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Apparently the real Q revolution will happen on March 20th, so maybe we'll get an update then.
Mmm, which year?

Hans
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:59 AM   #1134
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Impeachment articles (the Trump ones, not the Biden ones) are going to the Senate on Monday says Schumer.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/22/polit...mer/index.html
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Old 22nd January 2021, 10:01 AM   #1135
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I'm not quite following you here. Maybe you can define the American aristocracy more objectively, to start. Are they all fascists, by definition? Who, exactly, are "they". What are the essential characteristics that define them?
Of course I'm likely being a bit facetious and broad, but having grown up among the prosperous preppies of the Northeast, I think there is a subset, referred to by some as "the horsey aristocracy," of which the founders of The National Review seem a prime example, who manage with consistency over the generations to stand apart from the populist rabble, but subsidize and empower them.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 10:45 AM   #1136
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I can't find it now, but the latest story I saw on this had a spokesperson from her office saying that she had intended to file them, but hadn't because the process was more difficult than she had thought it would be.
Here's a link to Congress.gov, and her resolution. If you click on the "Text" tab on that page, you get this:

Quote:
Text: H.Res.57 — 117th Congress (2021-2022)
As of 01/22/2021 text has not been received for H.Res.57 - Impeaching Joseph R. Biden, President of the United States, for abuse of power by enabling bribery and other high crimes and misdemeanors.

Bills are generally sent to the Library of Congress from GPO, the Government Publishing Office, a day or two after they are introduced on the floor of the House or Senate. Delays can occur when there are a large number of bills to prepare or when a very large bill has to be printed.
From what I can gather, she did introduce the thing verbally on the floor of the House. I guess it remains to be seen whether she can muster the actual resolution it takes to put it in a coherent, legal, and debatable form.

I dunno- maybe it's just me, but I would think that if I wanted to be a US Representative, I would inform myself on how difficult a process that's a defining part of the job is before I pretended to be qualified to be one. Surely impeaching Biden can wait on learning how to do it.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 10:53 AM   #1137
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Trump managed to find a lawyer at last, thanks to the assistance of his good pal, Lindsay Graham.

A two-bit local hack who will be completely out of his depth in Washington, and who appropriately shares his name with a white trash piece of filth character from Stephen King's It.

Butch Bowers. (Absolutely no relation to Betty)
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Old 22nd January 2021, 11:21 AM   #1138
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Originally Posted by No Other View Post
Snide comment noticed and understood. What you and some others fail to grasp is that this site is a Skeptics site and not just an opinion forum.
I doubt it.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 12:40 PM   #1139
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Trump managed to find a lawyer at last, thanks to the assistance of his good pal, Lindsay Graham.

A two-bit local hack who will be completely out of his depth in Washington, and who appropriately shares his name with a white trash piece of filth character from Stephen King's It.

Butch Bowers. (Absolutely no relation to Betty)
Cannot read without submitting (tons of) personal information.

hans
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Old 22nd January 2021, 01:23 PM   #1140
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U.S. Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell is proposing to push back the start of Donald Trump's impeachment trial by a week or more to give the former president time to review the case.

In normal circumstances, a delay might not be too bad. the Democrats have a lot of work to do in the short term... confirmation of Biden's cabinet picks, Covid-19 legislation, etc. The cynic in me says that Moscow Mitch is only proposing the delay to benefit the republicans/harm the Democrats. "Lets drag out the proceedings as long as possible in order to obstruct Biden's plans".
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Old 22nd January 2021, 01:24 PM   #1141
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Cannot read without submitting (tons of) personal information.

hans
*Confused* The article? It's straight off the Reuters wire, no paywall or registration of any kind.

Or am I misunderstanding?
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Old 22nd January 2021, 01:28 PM   #1142
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Confused* The article? It's straight off the Reuters wire, no paywall or registration of any kind.
It still requests name address, age, e-mail .. and more. I suppose I could fill in fake data, but ..

Hans

ETA: OK, it's an EU thing. Found an "allow all button, this time".
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Old 22nd January 2021, 01:30 PM   #1143
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
It still requests name address, age, e-mail .. and more. I suppose I could fill in fake data, but ..

Hans
Must be your location I'm not seeing any of that.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 02:59 PM   #1144
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Now reading that They could "Start the Trial' on TUesday, but delay the actual proceedings for any oength of time...a lot like how normal trials operate. where the formal opening of a trial is often weeks before the real proceddings begin.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 03:41 PM   #1145
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My link is simply to https://www.reuters.com/world . It seems to work fine at least here. So does https://apnews.com/ if you want a slightly different mix.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 04:21 PM   #1146
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The actual trial will begin on Feb 9th.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/22/polit...mer/index.html

So Nancy will send the papers over to the Snate, the Senate will open the trial on TUesday, a motion to postpone will be made and carried. This kind of thing happens all the time in "real" courts.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 06:58 AM   #1147
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If I were a senator (a democratic one) I wouldn't vote to convict Trump. It is hard to take the house seriously when they do not take the process seriously. They haven't interviewed witnesses. They didn't subpoena any records or communications. For something so important thet have put very little effort into it.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 07:01 AM   #1148
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If I were a senator (a democratic one) I wouldn't vote to convict Trump. It is hard to take the house seriously when they do not take the process seriously. They haven't interviewed witnesses. They didn't subpoena any records or communications. For something so important thet have put very little effort into it.
I am pretty sure that most of them will have watched and read about the insurrection.

What other information would they need to make a rational decision?
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Old 23rd January 2021, 07:08 AM   #1149
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I am pretty sure that most of them will have watched and read about the insurrection.

What other information would they need to make a rational decision?
Expert testimony on the psychology of incitement. Testimony of rioters that the speech incited them. Communication in the white house that they were aware, etc etc.

The house is going to argue that it was incitement. If your argument is a shallow, "what more do you need" then don't be upset if I don't think it is sufficient. You need to argue what is the standard, how it meets it, then build that case.

ETA: if you take the approach that there is no standard one should target (because it is a political act) and each person should just look at it, I can't take that as a serious effort.

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Old 23rd January 2021, 07:12 AM   #1150
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Expert testimony on the psychology of incitement. Testimony of rioters that the speech incited them. Communication in the white house that they were aware, etc etc.

The house is going to argue that it was incitement. If your argument is a shallow, "what more do you need" then don't be upset if I don't think it is sufficient. You need to argue what is the standard, how it meets it, then build that case.
That is not how impeachment works.

If you wish to create a new process then there are mechanisms in the USA condition to do so, good luck with your campaign.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 07:22 AM   #1151
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That is not how impeachment works.

If you wish to create a new process then there are mechanisms in the USA condition to do so, good luck with your campaign.
If we are not using a legal standard, then I would default to skepticism. Certainly the events are correlated. How does one prove causation in this scenario?
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Old 23rd January 2021, 07:37 AM   #1152
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If we are not using a legal standard, then I would default to skepticism. Certainly the events are correlated. How does one prove causation in this scenario?
I am using the standard of the USA Constitution, which is the base for all legal standards in regards to a president being impeached. Are you claiming non-constitutional standards should be used?
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Old 23rd January 2021, 07:42 AM   #1153
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Expert testimony on the psychology of incitement. Testimony of rioters that the speech incited them. Communication in the white house that they were aware, etc etc.

The house is going to argue that it was incitement. If your argument is a shallow, "what more do you need" then don't be upset if I don't think it is sufficient. You need to argue what is the standard, how it meets it, then build that case.
I disagree.There's plenty of evidence for the charge, which is what the House is tasked with. They don't need to subpoena witnesses and communications to evaluate events that occurred in public. Their job is the charge, not the trial. We heard the president utter inflammatory lies, and saw and heard his followers commit an act of rebellious terrorism while uttering their adherence to those inflammatory lies. If there are subtleties beyond what everyone in the nation saw and heard, the time for them to be explained, or pulled out of the hind ends of the defendants, is in the trial, not the charge. What you are advocating is that the Senators do exactly what they did last time, which is to pre-determine the result of the trial before it's taken place, in other words that they do not take their job seriously.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 07:51 AM   #1154
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I am using the standard of the USA Constitution, which is the base for all legal standards in regards to a president being impeached. Are you claiming non-constitutional standards should be used?
The Constitution doesn't specify a standard for impeachment.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 07:53 AM   #1155
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I disagree.There's plenty of evidence for the charge, which is what the House is tasked with. They don't need to subpoena witnesses and communications to evaluate events that occurred in public. Their job is the charge, not the trial. We heard the president utter inflammatory lies, and saw and heard his followers commit an act of rebellious terrorism while uttering their adherence to those inflammatory lies. If there are subtleties beyond what everyone in the nation saw and heard, the time for them to be explained, or pulled out of the hind ends of the defendants, is in the trial, not the charge. What you are advocating is that the Senators do exactly what they did last time, which is to pre-determine the result of the trial before it's taken place, in other words that they do not take their job seriously.
The house is tasked with serving as the role of pseudo-prosecutor. And the house selects who is serving in that role. Their job is also the trial.In the absence of a standard (reasonable doubt, probable, etc) they are the ones presenting in that situation.

ETA: if a third party served in the prosecutorial role, my position on what the house should have done would be aligned with you.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 23rd January 2021 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 08:02 AM   #1156
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The Constitution doesn't specify a standard for impeachment.
Yes it does - it lays out in its entirety what impeachment is, you wanting to add unconstitutional requirements seems a tad presumptuous.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 08:04 AM   #1157
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yes it does - it lays out in its entirety what impeachment is, you wanting to add unconstitutional requirements seems a tad presumptuous.
It does not set a standard for guilt.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 08:15 AM   #1158
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It does not set a standard for guilt.
Impeachment is about a judgement made by defined groups of elected representatives of the USA government. Since you are posting about a “standard for guilt” I take it you have not read the relevant part of the USA constitution? There is nothing in the constitution that would allow for the changes you wish to be made to the constitution without the constitution being amended. If you want to change what impeachment is I again refer you to the mechanisms in the USA constitution for making such changes.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 08:16 AM   #1159
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Impeachment is about a judgement made by defined groups of elected representatives of the USA government. Since you are posting about a “standard for guilt” I take it you have not read the relevant part of the USA constitution? There is nothing in the constitution that would allow for the changes you wish to be made to the constitution without the constitution being amended. If you want to change what impeachment is I again refer you to the mechanisms in the USA constitution for making such changes.
I didn't propose a change. I said I would vote no unless there was a good argument.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 08:17 AM   #1160
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I didn't propose a change. I said I would vote no unless there was a good argument.
Yes you did.
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