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Tags james randi , Pachita , psychic healers , psychic healing , psychics

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Old 20th January 2021, 05:40 PM   #1
Setsurinvich
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"Psychics" and their tricks and how are they performed

Recently I have found that someone made a documentary about a para psychologist that disappeared several decades ago named Jacobo Grinberg and his work. One of the most famous subjects he wrote about was a "psychic" healer named Pachita. I had previously written about this "psychic" in the past on the forum. But the recent mention has gotten me curious about something, how would a stage magician be able to replicate some of her "psychic surgery" there were several photos were there was quite a bit of "blood" how much "blood" could a stage magician palm to use for these kinds of tricks?

Here is an example in the second picture there seems to be quite a bit of "blood" could enough blood be palmed by a magican to make such a mess, and also i think that blood would not flow like that if the "psychic" really did make an actual incision no?
https://image.slidesharecdn.com/losc...?cb=1319979615

Last edited by Setsurinvich; 20th January 2021 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 20th January 2021, 06:25 PM   #2
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The blood isn't just palmed. Both it and the "guts" are in the dishes used to wash up and discard waste.

James Randi demonstrated exactly this on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. I'm sure if you are interested it should be easy enough to find.
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Old 20th January 2021, 06:31 PM   #3
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but what about my observations on the blood flow and how the "incision" looks on the "patients" body? Would you say they are accurate?
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Old 20th January 2021, 07:05 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
but what about my observations on the blood flow and how the "incision" looks on the "patients" body? Would you say they are accurate?
No. The trick is easily duplicated.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Randi demonstration.
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Old 20th January 2021, 07:07 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
No. The trick is easily duplicated.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Randi demonstration.
I am saying how the blood flow and the "incision" doesnt look like an actual opening in a person's body and asking if my observations are accurate
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Old 20th January 2021, 07:11 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
No. The trick is easily duplicated.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Randi demonstration.

Randi was just awesome.
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Old 20th January 2021, 07:12 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
I am saying how the blood flow and the "incision" doesnt look like an actual opening in a person's body and asking if my observations are accurate

Well, they are accurate because it’s not an actual incision. The gore of it is supposed to be distracting and serve as a cover for the chicanery going on.
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Old 20th January 2021, 07:31 PM   #8
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Well in the second picture of the link i provided were there is supposedly an incision but its literally just "blood". If an incision is actually made into a person's body should we see some guts even if its poor quality black-white film?
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Old 20th January 2021, 07:38 PM   #9
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There is no incision.
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Old 20th January 2021, 07:41 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
Well in the second picture of the link i provided were there is supposedly an incision but its literally just "blood". If an incision is actually made into a person's body should we see some guts even if its poor quality black-white film?
Right. So what does that tell you? It tells me it's fake.
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Old 20th January 2021, 07:43 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There is no incision.
Can I ask how would you best explain so to an untrained eye and people that are more superstitious from the pictures?

Last edited by Setsurinvich; 20th January 2021 at 07:52 PM.
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Old 20th January 2021, 07:52 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Right. So what does that tell you? It tells me it's fake.
its just that sometimes I prefer an expert to take a look with me to confirm my suspicions
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Old 20th January 2021, 08:14 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
Can I ask how would you best explain so to an untrained eye and people that are more superstitious from the pictures?
There is no incision. It's a magic trick, designed to fool people into thinking that there's something going on. The pieces being removed are chicken giblets. The blood is fake.

Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
its just that sometimes I prefer an expert to take a look with me to confirm my suspicions
Very few people here would claim to be "experts", but all can tell you that all that is going on here is trickery.
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Old 20th January 2021, 08:29 PM   #14
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I am aware of the magic tricks but i want to be able to spot out the fraud and explain to others what is going on
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Old 20th January 2021, 08:36 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
I am aware of the magic tricks but i want to be able to spot out the fraud and explain to others what is going on
I'm not too sure what you're asking. We've shown you what's going on. A magic trick is being done, intended to fool the audience into thinking that something is happening when it's not.

Or do you mean that you want to know precisely how the magic trick is done, such that you could perhaps replicate it?
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Old 20th January 2021, 09:19 PM   #16
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Yes, i want to know how precisely the trick was done so that it would be possible to replicate it
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Old 20th January 2021, 10:02 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
Yes, i want to know how precisely the trick was done so that it would be possible to replicate it

It’s really a simple trick involving palming “blood” balloons and chicken giblets -which are hidden amongst all the other props. As the “surgeon” moves their hands around to get gauze, etc. they’ll they palm various bits.

It doesn’t look or act like a real incision because what it actually is a pool of fake blood that sits in the little hollow created by pressing down on the stomach. Once there’s a good pool of blood on the skin, it’s easy to hide things better. The “surgeon” basically bends the fingers at the second joint to make it look like the hand is penetrating skin. Try it with your own hand on your stomach and you will see what I mean. The other hand then withdraws the chicken parts from pool/inserted hand. Repeat to produce as much blood and guts as you want.

Watch the Randi clip with this in mind and it all becomes quite clear.
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Old 20th January 2021, 10:04 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
Yes, i want to know how precisely the trick was done so that it would be possible to replicate it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ElzxjoLbmo

Here is a step by step.
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Old 20th January 2021, 10:55 PM   #19
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could clotted blood be used to make the result look more sticky and messy like in the photos i found? As well would the blood being absorbed by cotton surrounding the "surgery" site give it that "look" found in that photo?
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:01 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
could clotted blood be used to make the result look more sticky and messy like in the photos i found? As well would the blood being absorbed by cotton surrounding the "surgery" site give it that "look" found in that photo?
Have you taken a look at the link I provided?

How did you determine it was sticky from a photo?
I can think of plenty of liquids including stage blood that mimics the real thing.
Cotton will readily absorb any liquid, not just blood.
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:11 AM   #21
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Yes i did enjoy the video, i was referring to how the "blood" picture looked sticky because of how much it seemed to have just stuck in one place, as well i mentioned it might be cotton absorbing the "blood". But the bloodspill patterns on that photo looked really weired though
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Old 21st January 2021, 05:44 AM   #22
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It takes lots of practice to get magical illusions to look effective. I suggest you get started.
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Old 21st January 2021, 06:58 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
Yes i did enjoy the video, i was referring to how the "blood" picture looked sticky because of how much it seemed to have just stuck in one place, as well i mentioned it might be cotton absorbing the "blood". But the bloodspill patterns on that photo looked really weired though
A friend of mine has worked on a bunch of low-budget horror movies. He has his own recipe for stage blood, and a major component is very sticky: corn syrup. In Alfred Hitchcock's movie Psycho, they used chocolate syrup as stage blood. It worked because the film was black-and-white. And the blood, like the syrup, was sticky.
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Old 21st January 2021, 09:05 AM   #24
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Psychic surgery trick video,

Nay Sayer -
Thanks for that link. When I talk about psychic surgery and other frauds in class I'll be sure to show this video.
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Old 21st January 2021, 09:14 AM   #25
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i just read perhaps what is the most absurd thing this "healer" supposedly done- a person had claimed this healer told them that their skull was decalcifying and that the healer had "plugged" in the holes.... yeah thats not an actual thing is it?
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Old 21st January 2021, 10:19 AM   #26
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^ Not to the best of my knowledge.
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Old 21st January 2021, 10:34 AM   #27
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any doctors/people good with biology can confirm that the skull de calcifying thing is utter tripe?
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Old 21st January 2021, 10:42 AM   #28
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I mean, there's rickets (aka osteomalacia), but that isn't what is being talked about.

Never heard of anything else.
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Old 21st January 2021, 10:42 AM   #29
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I called a friend who is an oncologist at Emory University Hospital, interrupting his lunch, and asked about skull decalcification. His reply: "That's bull ****."
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:06 AM   #30
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thank your friend for his colourful and lightning fast response!
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Old 21st January 2021, 02:51 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
Yes i did enjoy the video, i was referring to how the "blood" picture looked sticky because of how much it seemed to have just stuck in one place, as well i mentioned it might be cotton absorbing the "blood". But the bloodspill patterns on that photo looked really weired though
You have to remember that the majority of laypeople have no idea how blood behaves, or what it looks like during surgery. You don't have to make it absolutely realistic for it to have verisimilitude.
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:30 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You have to remember that the majority of laypeople have no idea how blood behaves, or what it looks like during surgery. You don't have to make it absolutely realistic for it to have verisimilitude.
Furthering that point psychic surgery is far more common in underdeveloped areas with poor education.
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:46 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Furthering that point psychic surgery is far more common in underdeveloped areas with poor education.
And a surplus of stray chickens, etc. In many cases, the blood is quite real. Just that it is not human blood.
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Old 21st January 2021, 09:10 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You have to remember that the majority of laypeople have no idea how blood behaves, or what it looks like during surgery. You don't have to make it absolutely realistic for it to have verisimilitude.
i guess you are right about that! Also i remembered reading about this "healer" performing in super dark rooms, but the photos i found seem to show her working in rooms with adequate lighting. (There are clear shadows in the background). It is possible to tell if there was adequate lighting in a room with black and white photography?
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Old 22nd January 2021, 01:40 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
i just read perhaps what is the most absurd thing this "healer" supposedly done- a person had claimed this healer told them that their skull was decalcifying and that the healer had "plugged" in the holes.... yeah thats not an actual thing is it?
Anybody dumb enough to believe that must have a hole in their head.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 04:46 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
i guess you are right about that! Also i remembered reading about this "healer" performing in super dark rooms, but the photos i found seem to show her working in rooms with adequate lighting. (There are clear shadows in the background). It is possible to tell if there was adequate lighting in a room with black and white photography?
I'm no expert, but I believe shadows show up quite well in black and white.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 07:09 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
i guess you are right about that! Also i remembered reading about this "healer" performing in super dark rooms, but the photos i found seem to show her working in rooms with adequate lighting. (There are clear shadows in the background). It is possible to tell if there was adequate lighting in a room with black and white photography?
Whatever shows up in a photograph for lighting can be very different from how it appears in the actual scene. Your eyes adjust a lot but most of the time you don't notice it.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 07:17 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Setsurinvich View Post
i guess you are right about that! Also i remembered reading about this "healer" performing in super dark rooms, but the photos i found seem to show her working in rooms with adequate lighting. (There are clear shadows in the background). It is possible to tell if there was adequate lighting in a room with black and white photography?
In both of the photographs you provided, look carefully at her right hands pose.

That is a typical stage magician concealment method. Having used it myself, I know it when I see it.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 07:28 AM   #39
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While we can never "prove" psychic surgery doesn't happen. I's just that, from what is known about biology and the human body, it very unlikely that we have grass or chicken entrails inside.

As with other fake phenomena such as spoon bending and etc, the fact that this trick can be exactly duplicated by slight-of-hand has to be overcome before it can be considered "true".
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Old 22nd January 2021, 10:07 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
In both of the photographs you provided, look carefully at her right hands pose.

That is a typical stage magician concealment method. Having used it myself, I know it when I see it.
isnt it her left hand doing "funny" things?
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