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Old 21st January 2021, 08:45 PM   #1601
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
It's one of the fundamental questions of religion.

There's no reason a theory of redshifts should tell us how old the universe is.

It has to match the facts.

Not faith.
How old the universe is isnít a matter of faith, itís a matter of fact. And the fact is that either the universe is infinitely old, or it had a beginning. That isnít religion, thatís elementary logic. You say you arenít claiming that the universe is infinitely old. Then how old is it? We should be able to determine that by examining it. By looking at the facts.

You are strangely incurious about this. Why?
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:48 PM   #1602
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How old the universe is isnít a matter of faith, itís a matter of fact. And the fact is that either the universe is infinitely old, or it had a beginning. That isnít religion, thatís elementary logic. You say you arenít claiming that the universe is infinitely old. Then how old is it? We should be able to determine that by examining it. By looking at the facts.

You are strangely incurious about this. Why?
According to the Big Bang theory, the universe is 14 billion years old.

According to a non-expanding theory, the universe wouldn't have an age.

I was kinda shocked about that at first. Made me feel dirty even.

But I got over it.

I'm fine with either.

That the big bang gives us a creation date, which is cool, but no logical argument I know of says other redshift interpretations must do the same thing.
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:49 PM   #1603
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
It wouldn't, I suppose.

It would have to be catching up with photons in front of it.
But that is precisely what your theory allows for: a spaceship to catch up with photons in front of it. So what would those photons look like to the ship that caught up to them?

Your theory is fundamentally incompatible with both relativity and electrodynamics. You donít even understand the problem, of course youíre not going to be able to come up with a solution.
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:49 PM   #1604
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Exclamation A delusion that iron will magically turn back to hydrogen

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
If a star spends all its fuel, it won't make a bit of difference.

The light it has shown will redshift, and that energy would get recycled back
A delusion that "recycled energy" from red shifted light turns elements such as iron (the endpoint of normal stellar fusion) back into hydrogen.
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:53 PM   #1605
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
According to the Big Bang theory, the universe is 14 billion years old.

According to a non-expanding theory, the universe wouldn't have an age.
Unless you mean the universe is infinitely old, this statement doesnít even make sense. And if you are claiming it is infinitely old, then we are back to the problem of why it isnít already heat dead. If itís not infinitely old, then we have the problem of figuring out how old. Refusing to say doesnít make your theory better than a theory which does say, it makes it worse.

Quote:
I was kinda shocked about that at first. Made me feel dirty even.

But I got over it.

I'm fine with either.
I donít care what you are fine with. You donít know anything, so neither your objections nor your approval matter. I care what actually is possible, and what matches observation. Your theory doesnít.
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:54 PM   #1606
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Exclamation Idiocy of irrelevant questions in a thread about Mike Helland's ignorant fantasies.

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
....
More idiocy of irrelevant questions in a thread about Mike Helland's ignorant fantasies.

Mike Helland irrelevancy about the conclusion of "A Cold, Massive, Rotating Disk 1.5 Billion Years after the Big Bang"
Another ignorant fantasy that a challenge is removed by removing a time limit when the challenges are probably in the complexity of numeric simulations.
Mike Helland's inability to understand clear English in a paper's abstract.
Mike Helland turns incomprehension into a lie about a paper's abstract which has no problem
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:55 PM   #1607
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But that is precisely what your theory allows for: a spaceship to catch up with photons in front of it. So what would those photons look like to the ship that caught up to them?
I suppose it would be no different than catching up to a sound wave, or a shockwave from an earth quake.

In this case, you would literally be outrunning light from a galaxy, to reach a point where the light is now showing you a younger version of the galaxy than where you just were.



Quote:
Your theory is fundamentally incompatible with both relativity and electrodynamics. You donít even understand the problem, of course youíre not going to be able to come up with a solution.
Is it a problem?

If you outrun light, you get to see the light that came before it.

Basically time travel.
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:57 PM   #1608
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Unless you mean the universe is infinitely old, this statement doesnít even make sense. And if you are claiming it is infinitely old, then we are back to the problem of why it isnít already heat dead. If itís not infinitely old, then we have the problem of figuring out how old. Refusing to say doesnít make your theory better than a theory which does say, it makes it worse.

It could be 10100 years old, or 10100100 years old.

The evidence isn't discriminating at this point.

But both are finite numbers.
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Old 21st January 2021, 09:09 PM   #1609
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Exclamation Mike Helland fantasizes about a quote from a paper

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
"This provides a simple null test to be applied to any cluster thus found in a real catalogue, and suggests that the interpretation of LQGs as Ďstructuresí is misleading."

The argument doesn't apply to walls.
Mike Helland fantasizes about a quote from a paper and follows with a fantasy that I updated Wikipedia.
An ignorant physics crank will not know what arguments in a paper can be applied to. Mike Helland is so deeply ignorant of astronomy that he seems to still believe that the CMB is local form his recent posts and his web page still has his "retracted" stuff.

20 January 2021: A couple or maybe 3 retractions from Mike Helland.
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Old 21st January 2021, 09:17 PM   #1610
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Exclamation Abysmal ignorance about catching up to light from Mike Helland

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
I suppose it would be no different than catching up to a sound wave, or a shockwave from an earth quake.
Abysmal ignorance about catching up to light from Mike Helland.
A delusion that light is propagated in a medium like a sound wave or shock wave. This has been known to be not the case since the Michelson–Morley experiment in 1887. This is well known textbook physics.
Pursuing a beam of light is a 16 year old Einstein thinking about travelling at c alongside a light beam and concluding that it would not exist!
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There seems to be no such thing, however, neither on the basis of experience nor according to Maxwell's equations

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Old 21st January 2021, 09:46 PM   #1611
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
It could be 10100 years old, or 10100100 years old.

The evidence isn't discriminating at this point.

But both are finite numbers.
What would it look like if the universe was 10100 years old? Why arenít all the stars burned out already? They donít last that long.

The evidence is, in fact, quite discriminating on this point.
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Old 21st January 2021, 09:49 PM   #1612
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
I suppose it would be no different than catching up to a sound wave, or a shockwave from an earth quake.
That analogy requires an aether to work. Do you believe in an aether?

Quote:
Is it a problem?
Yes. It contradicts relativity. Thatís a problem, since relativity has so much experimental support.
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Old 21st January 2021, 10:39 PM   #1613
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
It wouldn't, I suppose.

It would have to be catching up with photons in front of it.
In that case you have the unique reference frame problem Ziggurat mentioned.

But continuing with the thought experiment: if I could communicate with these aliens to ask them where GN-Z11 was, which way would they point?
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Old 21st January 2021, 10:48 PM   #1614
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why arenít all the stars burned out already?

If the universe is 13.8 Byo, and our galaxy is 13.6 Byo, we live in a galaxy about as old as the universe.

This has led some to speculate that we are among the first intelligent life in the universe:

"This most intriguing conclusion flows from the age of the universe, the generally understood epochs when stars and then planets and galaxies formed, and then how long it would take for a planet to cool off enough to form the chemical building blocks of life and then life itself. Given these factors, Loeb says, we're early."

https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/20...n-the-universe

What we're being told believe is that the stars and galaxies we see are among the first to have ever existed. In the trillions of years in the galaxy's future, we're here at the beginning.

Yeah... I highly doubt that.

That's a pretty Christopher Columbus way of looking at things. Show up late and claim you discovered it.

No, what's far more likely is the stars and galaxies we see are not the first, not the children, not even the grandchildren of the firsts.

Countless generations of stars have lived and died.

Hawking radiation and such.
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Old 21st January 2021, 10:54 PM   #1615
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Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian View Post
In that case you have the unique reference frame problem Ziggurat mentioned.
Just because different observers see things in different directions, that's a problem?

Light can wrap around a black hole and come back to you. Kind of similar concept.



Quote:
But continuing with the thought experiment: if I could communicate with these aliens to ask them where GN-Z11 was, which way would they point?
Assuming photons were like billiard balls, the galaxy behind them would appear in front of them.

If they weren't billiard balls and had their "outward direction" maybe that'd be different. That's a can of worms I'm not sure I want to open.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:27 PM   #1616
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That analogy requires an aether to work. Do you believe in an aether?
Nope.

Quote:
Yes. It contradicts relativity. Thatís a problem, since relativity has so much experimental support.
v=c-HD, so when the expansion of space can be ignored, v=c, experimentally we're good.

If, hypothetically, you could travel at 2c, then you could travel away from Earth, looking backwards, and see it grow younger. You should be able to see galaxies rotate backwards and devolve.

If the light is traveling at 0.08 at z=11, you should be able to see the same thing moving away from the galaxy at v>0.08.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 05:16 AM   #1617
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
v=c-HD
In what frame? I keep asking, but you wonít say. You donít even seem to realize that this is necessarily frame-dependent.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 05:18 AM   #1618
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
Countless generations of stars have lived and died.
Then where are all the corpses?
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Old 22nd January 2021, 06:25 AM   #1619
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then where are all the corpses?
They turn into planets.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 07:16 AM   #1620
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
They turn into planets.
Zombie planets! Must...eat...stars...
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Old 22nd January 2021, 07:26 AM   #1621
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
Just because different observers see things in different directions, that's a problem?
No, there's a problem because you cannot predict what different observers will see in different directions. You cannot predict how light will look to different observers without extrinsic information about where it came from. Even with that information, you cannot tell me with any certainty what the aliens will see when they look at GN-Z11; by your own admission, you're just guessing.

And that in turn means that your theory cannot make coherent predictions; it relies on extrinsic assumptions; it's only valid wrt one reference frame, and there's no way to know whether we're even in that reference frame; we might just as easily be the aliens in the spaceship.

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Old 22nd January 2021, 08:18 AM   #1622
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
In what frame? I keep asking, but you wonít say. You donít even seem to realize that this is necessarily frame-dependent.
Any inertial frame.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 08:28 AM   #1623
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian View Post
No, there's a problem because you cannot predict what different observers will see in different directions. You cannot predict how light will look to different observers without extrinsic information about where it came from. Even with that information, you cannot tell me with any certainty what the aliens will see when they look at GN-Z11; by your own admission, you're just guessing.
According to relativity, the aliens would look back and see the galaxy grow younger.

But I think you've actually suggested a pretty good test.

If we have an observer probe, viewing GN-Z11, the probe should move away at v>0.08c.

I think it would either

1. continue to redshift (even when time goes backward)
2. disappear or flicker
3. disappear and reappear in front of you


Quote:
And that in turn means that your theory cannot make coherent predictions; it relies on extrinsic assumptions; it's only valid wrt one reference frame, and there's no way to know whether we're even in that reference frame; we might just as easily be the aliens in the spaceship.
Let's say I'm in a spaceship moving away from Earth at 2c.

Looking at the Earth, wouldn't it grow younger?

We would be catching up to light that left in the past.

That same logic applies to all frames.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 08:29 AM   #1624
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then where are all the corpses?
You mean all the rare earth metals in your electronics?
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Old 22nd January 2021, 08:54 AM   #1625
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
According to relativity, the aliens would look back and see the galaxy grow younger.
According to which relativity? In SR light moves at c in all directions for all observers, so you can't use that.

Quote:
But I think you've actually suggested a pretty good test.

If we have an observer probe, viewing GN-Z11, the probe should move away at v>0.08c.

I think it would either

1. continue to redshift (even when time goes backward)
2. disappear or flicker
3. disappear and reappear in front of you
So, no actual prediction then? It's multiple choice?

Quote:

Let's say I'm in a spaceship moving away from Earth at 2c.
Let's not.

So which redshifts give the correct distances? Your model assumes that there's an answer to that question.

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Old 22nd January 2021, 08:56 AM   #1626
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
Any inertial frame.
No. Your equation is not relativistically invariant. If it is correct in one frame, it will be wrong in other frames.

Which frame is it correct in? You can't say "any inertial frame", that's wrong.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 08:58 AM   #1627
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
You mean all the rare earth metals in your electronics?
Why are rare earth metals rare? They shouldn't be rare if we've been through many, many generations of stars. And that's only part of the corpse. Where's the rest of it?

You don't even know enough physics to understand why this is a problem for your theory.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:03 AM   #1628
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Reformed Offlian View Post
According to which relativity? In SR light moves at c in all directions for all observers, so you can't use that.
Second postulate of SR is that light moves at c in a vacuum.

My hypothesis is that light moves at c-HD in a vacuum.

It's a marriage between Einstein and Hubble. *edit* Hubble's Law gets divorced from GR and and elopes with SR.

So that's what I would use.

Quote:
So, no actual prediction then? It's multiple choice?
3 different hypothesis lead to 3 predictions and observation would be left to choose between them, yes.

Quote:
Let's not.
As you wish.

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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:05 AM   #1629
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why are rare earth metals rare?
Probably because until a couple hundred years ago were using shovels to get at them.

They get less rare every day. And that's just on Earth.

Buy bitcoin ;-)


Quote:
They shouldn't be rare if we've been through many, many generations of stars. And that's only part of the corpse. Where's the rest of it?
In the ground or out in space.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:06 AM   #1630
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. Your equation is not relativistically invariant. If it is correct in one frame, it will be wrong in other frames.

Which frame is it correct in? You can't say "any inertial frame", that's wrong.
Why's it wrong?

Use length contraction for D if you're not in at rest wrt the observed object.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:15 AM   #1631
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
Probably because until a couple hundred years ago were using shovels to get at them.
No. They are rare in absolute terms, not simply in their availability to us.

Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
Why's it wrong?
Because when you do a coordinate transformation on that equation, it changes form. It's not the same equation anymore. If you try to use the original equation in the new reference frame, you will get a different answer than the transformed equation. So the original equation is wrong in this new frame.

Quote:
Use length contraction for D if you're not in at rest wrt the observed object.
This is a half-answer that you don't even understand. You seem to be saying that the equation is correct as written in the reference frame of the emitter. Is that what you mean? It's still not relativistically invariant and that's still a problem, but at least that would be an answer. If this is what you mean, then we can examine the consequences.
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Last edited by Ziggurat; 22nd January 2021 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:33 AM   #1632
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. They are rare in absolute terms, not simply in their availability to us.
There are about 2 trillion galaxies in the universe.

If most of them have no gold (as we observe them at a young age), because we're among the first galaxies to have gold, that would be pretty remarkable.


My hypothesis predicts similar metal content today as 13 billion years ago.

The big bang predicts lower.metal content.

Another prediction the JWST should be able to tell us.


Basically, I'm just exploring this hypothesis, because if the universe turns out to be way bigger and older and more heavy metal than we thought, I can pull this out of my pocket and say "v=c-HD".

If JWST shows us a 14 billion year old universe with an observable region 96 Bly across, well done big bang. Well done.


Quote:
This is a half-answer that you don't even understand. You seem to be saying that the equation is correct as written in the reference frame of the emitter.
Nope.

If we are thinking of this as a modified special relativity (from v=c to v=c-HD) then it would be in any inertial frame.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:38 AM   #1633
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
My hypothesis predicts similar metal content today as 13 billion years ago.
You haven't predicted anything about heavy metal element compositions. Seriously, where are your numbers?

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Basically, I'm just exploring this hypothesis
No, you aren't. You don't even know enough to explore it meaningfully.

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Nope.

If we are thinking of this as a modified special relativity (from v=c to v=c-HD) then it would be in any inertial frame.
No, Mike. This is wrong. Your equation can only be valid in one reference frame, if at all. It must be wrong in every other frame, because changing frames changes the equation. That's just math. There is no way around that.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:43 AM   #1634
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You haven't predicted anything about heavy metal element compositions. Seriously, where are your numbers?
It's a matter of the cosmological principle, not a specific numbers.

I don't know the ratio of walls to voids, but the cosmological principle says it ought to be the same everywhere.

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No, Mike. This is wrong. Your equation can only be valid in one reference frame, if at all. It must be wrong in every other frame, because changing frames changes the equation. That's just math. There is no way around that.
How does it change the equation?

We're on earth and the sun is out there. Light from the sun heads to Earth at c.

A space ship from Mars heads past us towards the Sun.

Both the space ship and Earth see light moving at c. The space ship will get some blue shifts going on.

Now let's say we're not talking about the sun, but a high z galaxy.

What's different, the light doesn't move at c, it moves at c-HD.

So... don't use length contraction. Use proper length.

There. Figured it out. Now it's frame invariant. All in a days work.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:51 AM   #1635
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
It's a matter of the cosmological principle, not a specific numbers.

I don't know the ratio of walls to voids, but the cosmological principle says it ought to be the same everywhere.
This is a weird non-sequitor. We were talking about element ratios, not structures.

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How does it change the equation?
By changing both v and D. These are reference-frame dependent.

We're on earth and the sun is out there. Light from the sun heads to Earth at

Quote:
Now let's say we're not talking about the sun, but a high z galaxy.

What's different, the light doesn't move at c, it moves at c-HD.

So... don't use length contraction. Use proper length.
Do you mean the comoving frame proper length? That's still picking one frame, the comoving frame, in which to do the calculation. Which, fine, but you've still got to actually specify that. Otherwise there is no "proper length" you can refer to, and that still doesn't fix the whole problem because you're still left with v being reference-frame dependent. You could pick the comoving frame for that, but again, you're still specifying one frame in which the equation is correct, and it's wrong in other reference frames.

Quote:
There. Figured it out. Now it's frame invariant. All in a days work.
No, you haven't figured anything out. It's still reference frame dependent. You're just so bad at relativity that you don't even understand why.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 09:53 AM   #1636
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Do you mean the comoving frame proper length?
No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_length
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Old 22nd January 2021, 10:07 AM   #1637
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
This doesn't make any sense. The distance between the source and the observer is not an object, and is not spanned by an object. It doesn't have a proper length under this definition.

You keep revealing that you don't actually understand anything you're talking about.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 10:10 AM   #1638
Mike Helland
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This doesn't make any sense. The distance between the source and the observer is not an object, and is not spanned by an object. It doesn't have a proper length under this definition.
Yeah, proper distance rather, from the same article. As in SR opposed to GR.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 10:20 AM   #1639
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
Yeah, proper distance rather, from the same article. As in SR opposed to GR.
Yeah, well, that pretty much blows up your entire theory. Photons travel along null trajectories. The proper distance along their path is zero. Therefore, D=0 and they will never slow down.

Oops.

You really don't know anything, and are just throwing words against a wall in the hopes that something sticks.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 10:26 AM   #1640
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Mike Helland View Post
Second postulate of SR is that light moves at c in a vacuum.

My hypothesis is that light moves at c-HD in a vacuum.
Hubble distance is relative to the points being considered.

The Hubble distance across the Milky Way is one value. The Hubble distance between Andromeda and the Milky Way is another. You're saying that the same exact photon from Andromeda will move at two different speeds simultaneously.

Of course you're actually saying that the same photon will move at an infinite number of different speeds, simultaneously.
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