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#201 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 968
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#202 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 968
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OK, let's get this straight. You believe that torturing people strongly suspected to be a terrorist is bad, but killing civilians who happen to be near strongly suspected terrorists is OK???
When the US was torturing terrorists, it had a legal defense and strong defenders. When the US is/was spying via the NSA on its own citizens illegally, it had a legal defense and its strong defenders. You get the picture - fill in the blanks - there were will always be strong defenders of whatever abject policy is in place that undermines some very basic human rights, thus a legal defense doesn't make it right. What makes it right in your mind and the mind of so many on whatever the issue is, isn't the morality of the issue per se, but the political party of the perpetrators. Those opinions lack any credibility. |
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#203 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,680
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The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping. |
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#204 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: United States of America
Posts: 1,688
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He's an invader of a person's space. People who like their space know these kinds of people. They're touchy-feely and stand too close when speaking, even under normal conditions. It may be a built in feature with the VPOTUS, as he has been slapping backs and getting to know lots of people in his long career in Washington. However, there is definitely a line of standards held by the overwhelming majority of people (their personal body space) and he has been caught habitually violating those standards, some of which maxed out the Creep-o-Meter. If his behavior is a job related side-effect, one would assume that after hearing about this issue repeatedly and being embarrassed for the world to see, that he'd alter his style of being a politician. But he has not. He has doubled-down on it -- not only continuing the behavior but making jokes about the behavior. Doubling down on ideology is common for politicians, but doubling down on behavior in public that creeps the majority of people out and they KNOW that it creeps the majority of people out is not synonymous with politicians, not Western ones, that is.
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#205 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,626
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I believe one is a war crime and one isn't because that's the objective fact of how it is. The legal defense of torture is completely bogus and was concocted to defend actions that were already decided upon. Torture is clearly, and unequivocally a war crime under US and international law. International law does not make collateral damage a war crime. In fact, it acknowledges that fighting a war is impossible without collateral damage. Cheney, by his own words is a war criminal. It is indisputable that Cheney has admitted to torture (though he doesn't call it that) and that torture is a war crime. For the situations to be actually analogous, Obama would have to admit that he's ordered civilians to be targeted in drone strikes. I believe what I do because that's what the facts say. The facts show that Cheney is a war criminal. Facts that show Obama to be one are non-existent. Saying that a Republican is a war criminal and a Democrat isn't, is not evidence of partisanship on my part because it is actually true. It is your opinion that isn't credible if you refuse to accept a reality that you don't like. |
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#206 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,626
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#207 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 968
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You're simply appealing to authority, and that's not an argument based on what's truly right or wrong. Authority has been wrong often throughout history and lots of people have done what is 'legal' even though it wasn't right.
That's why it's hypocritical to justify the killing of innocent civilians while condemning the torture of known terrorists - someone says thems the rules so it must be right. Sigh. |
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#208 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,680
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__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping. |
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#209 |
![]() Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 59,461
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This thread has wandered further than Joe Biden's mitts on a lady!
Too soon? |
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You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
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#210 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,626
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I never made an argument about what was "truly right or wrong" (which is subjective) just about what was legal.
As for Obama drone strikes, the existence of collateral damage by itself does not make it wrong. That's a position that only a pacifist can take because of the unavailability of it in a war. I lack the information to say make a judgment beyond saying that collateral damage via Obama drones strikes, is, at best, sad but necessary. As for torture, it is much more clear. Torture doesn't work (and in fact can be counterproductive because of its tendency to cause false confessions). And thus there is no moral argument for why it is acceptable. Furthermore the people most willing to do it are sadists who go overboard even within the context of an illegal practice. I do have the information to say that Iraq War was definitely wrong. They decided to invade Iraq and then got the CIA to find them intel that could be used as justification. There was never any evidence that Saddam posed a serious threat because he didn't. But that didn't stop Cheney/Bush from selling it to the world that way. The lies that Saddam had ties to al Qaeda and that he was developing nuclear weapons were particularly outrageous but they had their intended effect - most people believed it to be true. Few thought the President would lie like that. Hell, even Hans Blix thought there were wmds before he began inspections. Inspections for which there was unprecedented cooperation from Saddam and which turned up no evidence of wmds. But they invaded anyway, causing the unnecessary deaths of many people. Cheney really is a villain. It may be a hard pill to swallow that one of the worst monsters alive today was the Vice President of the United States but it is true. I don't think so because he's a Republican, but rather because that's what the facts indicate. I judge Obama differently because the facts demand it, not because he's a Democrat. |
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#211 |
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,901
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I never thought of the parallels between LBJ and Biden before, but yes. Both have had the public persona of tone deaf buffoons (LBJ perhaps relying more on intimidation than Biden); nevertheless by all accounts highly competent, efficient and intelligent politicians. I think it's a tactic utilized for the purpose of disarming, unsettling or distracting political opponents.
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"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy |
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#212 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 10,017
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There have been very troubling questions raised about the legality of drone attacks in countries with which we are not at war.
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#213 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 968
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And that's the entire problem - justifying what we know to be wrong by its being 'legal'. The NSA had the 'legal' authority to break the law. The CIA had the 'legal' authority to break the law via torture. Obama has the 'legal' authority to use drones for assassinations abroad.
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#214 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 32,373
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Quick question: Is the legality of drone attacks on-topic?
I know there was some concerns about off-topic discussions earlier. |
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"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
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#215 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 10,017
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#216 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 10,017
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There are parallels, but I don't believe Biden is either competent, efficient or intelligent. On the contrary, I have always thought him a bloviating buffoon, going back to the 1988 Presidential primaries and a few years later as he presided over the Supreme Court confirmation hearings for Clarence Thomas. FYI, I was actually very much against the confirmation of Clarence Thomas back then. I thought him unqualified, and I believed Anita Hill's story about his sexual harassment of her (today, I still believe Anita Hill's story, but Clarence Thomas is far and away my favorite Supreme Court justice). Even though I was in favor of the Democrats' attacks on Thomas, or perhaps because of that, I found Biden to be insufferable. He was such a gasbag that I think he hurt the Democrats' cause immensely.
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#217 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 10,238
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Mr. Obama gets criticized because he's icy and reserved. Mr. Biden gets criticized because he's gregarious and chummy.
Damned if you don't, damned if you do. |
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My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie. |
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#218 |
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,311
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I can barely believe that I made it through the Trump presidency. On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool." A man's best friend is his dogma. |
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#219 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,586
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Mr. Biden gets criticized because he's bad at it.
I let some criminals go free one time, and my how the townsfolk did hate me! So I tried jailing some innocent men, and danged if the townsfolk didn't hate me even more! Seems like those townsfolk are just gonna hate me no matter what I do. I just can't catch a break, but at least I can die knowing it's the townsfolk in the wrong, not I. |
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#220 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 31,706
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__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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#221 |
Muse
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 968
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The original topic was about how the media has treated the episode with Biden. Examples of how the media has treated other political leaders was introduced, and how our interpretations of those leaders is shaped by the media. The arguments about who did what and why might have veered off topic, but I do believe that these are all closely related to why the media would report what they do and don't, etc.
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