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#81 |
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2016
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Interesting you think that about Sam in relation to migration and Islam. Could you direct me to something reenforcing this view? The following is a short video where Sam talks about Islam being described as "the religion of peace" I find no fault with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfKLV6rmLxE |
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#82 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: All up in your business!
Posts: 1,872
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For years I didn't really understand (read "give a **** about") the Left's sympathies for Islam (especially over Christianity) until one day a guy explained it clearly in about 4 seconds. Fundamentally, what Islam wants and what the Left wants are the exact same thing. They both want capricious, omnipotent power and control over all constituents. The seeming insatiable need/desire to impose their will and oversee and dictate one's every thought, act, word, emotion and life runs rampant in both "movements". The notion of "freedom" doesn't appear to have any importance whatsoever with either one.
But forget all that, the really hilarious part is yet to come. And it's a blatant case of 'be careful what you wish for'. Beyond CNN and MSNBC and HuffPost, i.e. in reality, there is literally nothing the Left and Islam actually share in common beyond that power thirst. Islam isn't just right leaning, it is the extreme right. It's Allah™ or the highway buddy. They (and Allah™) hate gay marriage, trannies, women's rights, children's rights, freedom, bacon, Jews, etc. Seriously, where would both sides' disparate ideals meet exactly (beyond the totalitarian theme)? They won't and it's only going to get funnier and funnier the closer to that realization we get. ![]() ![]() |
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#83 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,296
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#84 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,296
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I think it's worth pointing out that Harris has said that due to the potential for abuse we should have a policy of never allowing torture. He also says that there may be some exceptions wherein it makes sense to torture but when they come up they will be obvious that we don't need to explicitly allow them, and if we were to try to explicitly define those scenarios ahead of time it would open up potential for abuse so it's better to just have a complete ban.
Something like that. To portray that viewpoint as "who doesn't like torture?" seems pretty dishonest to me. |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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#85 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,885
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#86 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 5,147
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Shouldn't that have been a clue that what was about to explained was nonsense?
Interesting word choice. Go on . . . I can fix that for you Harry, to help you avoid something like 3 or 4 logical fallacies: "what Hey, this^ bit is pretty much accurate! Back to the original premise, if there is sympathy that "the Left" (whatever that means) has for Islam, it is for the individual rights of people who happen to be Muslim. There is no leftist love for the likes of bin Laden, Taliban, al Zarkawi, daesh, Khamenei, etc. Those are seen as analogous to Christianity's KKK, the many perpetrators of anti-semitic violence over centuries (deadly violence as recently as March in CA), Breivik, etc., who exist as anomalies to otherwise peacefully practicing Christians. In my experience, liberals might be less willing to say "Islam is NOT a religion of peace" than is Sam Harris, but that's as deep as I see the divide here. The Left is wholly ready to condemn acts of Islamic terrorism and oppression at any time, they just also want to see our leaders calling out acts of Christian terrorism and oppression when they occur, too. Oh, and maybe we could stop persecuting the billion or so practicing Muslims who reject the violent tenets of their faith? Helping those people lead safe and peaceful lives – especially in the US where those rights are Constitutionally guaranteed – is all that "social justice" means. Personally, I respect Harris' thoughts on this and see it as good critical thinking: Islam as described in the Quran is not a religion of peace. Despite that, there are about a billion Muslims in the world today who practice Islam as if it were a religion of peace. Those peaceful Muslims need the support of the rest of us to rout out the fundamentalists whack-jobs among their ranks, if for no other reason that Muslims are the primary victims of Islamic terrorism. |
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#87 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: All up in your business!
Posts: 1,872
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Fine, I overstated the understatement a little. 44 seconds.
![]() You fixed my LF with a LF? Damn you! ![]() Now we're gettin' somewhere. ![]() I won't wholly disagree with that. As an aside, Breivik was not a Christian let alone a fundamentalist one. Which makes the fact he was branded one early on (and their knowing it would stick) either suspicious or pure incompetence. I mean, the press deliberately lying about it whilst knowing that such an attribution could be highly inflammatory to a huge number of people worldwide once they realize the truth, can't really be defended ethically/morally no matter how many people the idiot killed. And I surely don't give a **** about him, but for some reason I'm compelled to "defend" millions of members of a group I don't even belong to, kinda like you're doing. I'm agnostic atheist by the way. ![]() Trust me, I don't think we differ at all in opposition to terrorism of any sort. ![]() Not so much me agreeing with you here as you're agreeing with me. One of the undersold points of my original post was the capricious nature of Islam and/or its "leadership" (worldwide). The fact the Quran lays out its hostilities towards anyone not a Muslim - despite the widespread disobedience by "a billion Muslims" in the present day to that specific tenet - can't be so easily dismissed given the otherwise ultra strict adherence to the book surely millions of Muslims have. Thus the notion "Islam is not a religion of peace but can be temporarily under these specific conditions" isn't anywhere near the 'comforting thought' it's pretending it wants to be. It's probably needless to point out that's not the premise nor practice of Christianity or <name of any other major religion> in the present day. ![]() |
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#88 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 5,147
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[quote=HarryHenderson;12727570]As an aside, Breivik was not a Christian let alone a fundamentalist one.
Indeed it's murky to assign any particular ideology to a nutcase like him, and there's a whole lotta No True Scotsman to watch out for in those discussions. He was a bit Odinist, certainly also agnostic, but also culturally Christian (as claimed in his own manifesto). He was a Freemason and took the name Knights Templar for his made-up organization. He might have been a lousy Christian, but the dude was Christian. I'm with you – and Harris – on this. All religions are/can be violent, but Islam specifically instructs its followers to enact the violence. |
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#89 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,617
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/dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx |
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#90 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 5,147
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I hope not too much special pleading but Christians are supposed to supplant the teachings in the Old Testament with the "New Covenant" Jesus introduces in the Gospels. (That's just one reason why I'll never understand Christians using Leviticus to justify their nonsense.)
The books of the Old Testament include plenty of mayhem by Yahweh and yes, plenty of "smite thine enemy" kind of stuff. From the Gospels onward, however, I don't know of a single directive for us to do the smiting. It's all threatened by the Father and, in Revelation, Sword-Mouth Jesus. Violence is God's purview, not ours. In the Quran, however, it is the faithful who are instructed to smite the infidels. That's what I see as a fundamental difference between Christian violence and Muslim violence: Violent Christians are acting heretical to their faith. Peaceful Muslims are acting heretical to theirs. (Standard caveats about not being a scholar of ancient texts or world religions and relative difference in influence of scripture on canon apply.) |
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#91 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The Lion's Den
Posts: 435
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The explanation that Islam and the Left want similar things(totalitarianism) is getting closer to the correct answer, but it isn't quite there. The politically correct language of today's society makes it difficult to discern true motivations. To get to the correct answer you'll need to understand the true nature and intentions of the modern Left. Remember, the modern Left is always trying to deceive you all the time about absolutely everything. But keep thinking about it and you'll get there.
Hmmm....It I strange then that Google decided to honor, with one of their doodles, a woman named Yuri Kochiyama. Now Yuri was a "peace activist" and a believer in "civil rights", in other words a supporter of terrorism. She was also extremely anti-American and for this reason is beloved by the commissars at Goolag(aka Google). She said this about Osama bin Laden: "I’m glad that you are curious why I consider Osama bin Laden as one of the people that I admire. To me, he is in the category of Malcolm X, Che Guevara, Patrice Lumumba, Fidel Castro, all leaders that I admire. They had much in common. Besides being strong leaders who brought consciousness to their people, they all had severe dislike for the US government and those who held power in the US. I think all of them felt the US government and its spokesmen were all arrogant, racist, hypocritical, self-righteous, and power hungry...You asked, "Should freedom fighters support him?” Freedom fighters all over the world, and not just in the Muslim world, don’t just support him; they revere him; they join him in battle. He is no ordinary leader or an ordinary Muslim. He may have once been surrounded with luxuries, but he adapted to the realities of a hunted “terrorist leader,” living in caves and doing without modern commodities…He went through heaven and hell with his men…" Yuri Kochiyama So one of the biggest and powerful companies in history is honoring a woman who admired bin Laden. That is the modern Left for you. |
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#92 |
Orthogonal Vector
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#93 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,466
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And of course to care for them within an islamic state as well. Now we can all admit that no real christian would ever be OK with a woman holding office and women having authority over men is right out.
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Timothy 2:12. |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#94 |
No longer the 1
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 23,885
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__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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#95 |
Self Employed
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Also let's be fair. Things like Figboots and Alien Abductions and Healing Crystals seem slightly less important in world vaccine denial and "The Dems have a Child Pizza Parlor Sex Dungeon."
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#96 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,449
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I don't think that's it at all. The far-left's sympathies for Islam have to do with a contradiction. Islam should, by all accounts, be anathema for them. However, Muslims in the west are a minority, and therefore must be protected and promoted as an underprilvileged group. Whether that's true or not is irrelevant; the effect is that they will refuse to criticize anything done by any Muslim, anywhere. If they find some doing bad things, it must be the fault of the western cisnormative straight white men.
It's a logical conclusion from their philosophy, taken too far. |
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#97 |
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Is the fact that much of Progressivism talked itself into a corner that can't get out of because it can't function on any level beyond "victim ranking" really... like shocking news to anybody at this point?
Yeah the Left being a champion for Islam is right up there with the Japanese forming an alliance with a group of Genocidal White Supremacists back in WWII on the "Wow you really don't see the problem with this do you?" scale, but that's not new. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#98 |
Fiend God
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#99 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oklahoma, USA
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Well, the ones who survive this kind of stuff I suppose:
The Quran, chapter 9 (At-Tawba), verse 5:[53] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. — translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali Maybe denying equal rights to women and slaying one's enemies aren't quite the same thing, you know? I mean, they're both awful, but the latter is significantly more murder-y. |
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#100 |
Philosopher
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#101 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 91,449
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You might have noticed, in your haste, that I said "far-left". I don't think this is a characteristic shared by the moderates.
And what kind of evidence do you want? A graph? I'm sure you haven't lived under a rock these last few years. Hell, there's even a few articles written about how feminist Islam is! |
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#102 |
Self Employed
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And herein with find yet another problem with tribalism... "technical" deniability.
You'd have to your head in a bucket of sand at the Marianas Trench to honestly think that the Left isn't protective of Islam and hostile to criticism of it. But since this is a group of shared ideology, nobody ever said it in those exact words which according to internet argumentative logic means it's not true because inference and... not being intentionally obtuse is "gasp" a strawman! That's the best thing about tribalism. Everyone can say anything they want, but nobody has to go "on record." |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#103 |
Featherless biped
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#104 |
Fiend God
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#105 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oklahoma, USA
Posts: 5,147
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Cute, but...
Who is the Left? What do you mean by protective of and hostile to the criticism of wrt Islam? Are we talking about American Left, European Left, Castro left? Do we mean protective of the rights of Americans to practice Islam as guaranteed by the 1st amendment? Does this have anything to do with the rigorous debates surrounding Quranic interpretations of Islam as a "religion of peace"? If we're not careful to define such things in our discourse here, then we're doing little more than laughing at a caricature of something that is irrelevant/doesn't exist. Heck, I'm pretty far to the left of most Americans and I simultaneously agree with these statements:
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#106 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,466
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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#107 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 4,905
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I'm with you there.
I'd just prefer we try to look a little closer at such 'analogous events' and use terrorism in the right context and not as a way to get back at war drum beating right-wingers who have used it as a scare word for years. Someone simply being a member of a religion doesn't qualify the act he committed as religion-influenced terrorism and too often that's a point lost on the general public. Lot of stuff gets conflated. |
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#108 |
Philosopher
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#109 |
Philosopher
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#110 |
Self Employed
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#111 |
Featherless biped
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Sometimes I just look at a post and think “Where the **** do I start? and “Do I really want to get into some ****** back and forth with this person?” and I decide no. But I still have to vent at ****** bigotry, don’t I. However this place being filled with brighter, clearer and more patient heads someone invariably shows up and dissects it, as they did here. Probably not ideal but there you go.
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#112 |
Self Employed
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#113 |
Featherless biped
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#114 |
Self Employed
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*Shrug* I'm not the one defending burqas and beheading homosexuals because the group in question ranks below me on some made up imaginary "Who's victim to who" list and don't I think it's "proper" for me to judge them.
You'll hem and haw and act faux-outraged, but... well hats and sizing I suppose. Oh and if your response is gonna be a huffy "SHOW ME WERE I DEFENDED THOSE THINGS!..." let's remember who took issue with who first. I said Progressives are hesitant to attack Islam for things they openly attack Western Christianity for. If you took umbridge with that, you're the sliding the shoe on ti see if it fits, not me. Long story short if you aren't one of them people defending Islam but happy to attack Western Christianity for less crimes... I wasn't talking to you. |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#115 |
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#116 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
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Never mind
I missed a few pages. |
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History does not always repeat itself. Sometimes it just yells "Can't you remember anything I told you?" and lets fly with a club. - John w. Campbell |
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#117 |
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*Sighs* You know what... let's reset this okay?
I stand by my statement that a lot of Western Progressives/Liberals are more willing to "attack" (in the argumentative sense) Western Christianity for things which Islam does to greater (often far greater) degrees with more (often far more) frequency and I find this problematic and I agree with Belz that the only reason it seems to be this way is that is a vague concept of Islam somehow becoming the victim or underdog in the discussion. *Full sincerity* What is your response? |
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Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate." |
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#118 |
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#119 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,417
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Kind of a non-sequitur but:
Personally, I think skepticism is just suffering the same problem as the rest of society, at least in the US. We are in a time of increased partisanship and folks that are somewhat on the skeptics spectrum are all backsliding a bit. We seem to be unable to engage the tools of skepticism quite as well these days on account of our tribal instincts. Either that or this and other "skeptics" forums and groups have attracted a lot of folks that never were that skeptical to begin with. |
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#120 |
Fiend God
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