Trump whistleblower brewing scandal

varwoche · 20th September 2019, 10:28 AM

I think this merits a thread. The administration is taking what are apparently unprecedented steps to withhold the whistleblower report from congress. It's been reported it involves Trump and the Ukraine.

Meanwhile, Guiliani spews gibberish out both sides of his mouth about his efforts, on Trump's behalf, to get Ukraine to investigate Biden.

Rudy Giuliani denies asking Ukraine to investigate Biden -- before admitting it

Cain · 20th September 2019, 10:42 AM

I honestly don't see the big deal. The president only -- allegedly -- offered favorable treatment to a foreign government in exchange for taking out a political opponent.

Trump correctly notes the whistleblower is highly partisan despite not knowing the person's identity (and if he does know their identity, then a "crime" has been committed, but it's actually REAL whistleblowing and should be pardoned).

Stacyhs · 20th September 2019, 11:05 AM

What is being reported now is that the call MAY have been Trump and the Ukraine president regarding Ukraine investigating Biden for Trump. Giuliani admits he asked Ukraine to investigate Biden. Giuliani would not have done that without Trump's direction to do so.

Didn't the GOP have a fit when they accused the DNC of hiring a foreign national (Steele) to investigate a presidential candidate (Trump)?

Segnosaur · 20th September 2019, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

What is being reported now is that the call MAY have been Trump and the Ukraine president regarding Ukraine investigating Biden for Trump. Giuliani admits he asked Ukraine to investigate Biden. Giuliani would not have done that without Trump's direction to do so.

Not only asking Ukraine to investigate, but possibly tying it to military aid. (i.e. if you don't investigate Biden we won't help protect you against Russia).

Which means Trump may be using taxpayer money as a way to leverage another country to dig up dirt on a political rival.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...n-military-aid

BobTheCoward · 20th September 2019, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Not only asking Ukraine to investigate, but possibly tying it to military aid. (i.e. if you don't investigate Biden we won't help protect you against Russia).

Which means Trump may be using taxpayer money as a way to leverage another country to dig up dirt on a political rival.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...n-military-aid

Or incentive to a country to investigate alleged corruption. Justice cannot stop simply because it just so happens to involve someone you know.

It could be difficult to prove it was the former.

Random · 20th September 2019, 11:23 AM

So far, the best bit was Rudy Giuliani's epic meltdown on CNN. I am reminded of the idea of a "Golden Shovel Lawyer", an expensive attorney who shows up in court in a fancy suit and tie and proceeds to bury their client.

Childlike Empress · 20th September 2019, 11:36 AM

I've stacked up on popcorn already. "The Resistance" should check if they have enough handkerchiefs for all those liberal tears they will be crying. Likely it will be kept on low profile for the best part of another year, though, especially if creepy and sleepy uncle Joe really is chosen to run against Orange Man (who is bad).

Segnosaur · 20th September 2019, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Or incentive to a country to investigate alleged corruption. Justice cannot stop simply because it just so happens to involve someone you know.

It could be difficult to prove it was the former.

Except of course that no formal request for an investigation has been made by the U.S. (suggesting that this is more of a smear tactic than a legitimate investigation into corruption).

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukrain...ial-us-request

In addition you also have proportionality... Even if there is a legitimate reason to investigate Biden, making major foreign policy changes that can affect the geopolitical situation just because "Gosh, person X didn't pay their taxes" seems excessive (considering the Trump administration continues to support Saudi Arabia after they had a reporter actually killed.)

And finally... lets say there was a reason to investigate Biden. Lets say the crimes were serious enough to suspend aid if they were uncooperative.... The Trump administration may have still broken the law by not passing on a legitimate report to congress in a timely manner, as they were required to do.

(This is of course assumes the whistleblower complaint was about Trump/The Ukraine/Biden, and not some unrelated reason.)

chrispy · 20th September 2019, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Except of course that no formal request for an investigation has been made by the U.S. (suggesting that this is more of a smear tactic than a legitimate investigation into corruption).

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukrain...ial-us-request

In addition you also have proportionality... Even if there is a legitimate reason to investigate Biden, making major foreign policy changes that can affect the geopolitical situation just because "Gosh, person X didn't pay their taxes" seems excessive (considering the Trump administration continues to support Saudi Arabia after they had a reporter actually killed.)

And finally... lets say there was a reason to investigate Biden. Lets say the crimes were serious enough to suspend aid if they were uncooperative.... The Trump administration may have still broken the law by not passing on a legitimate report to congress in a timely manner, as they were required to do.

(This is of course assumes the whistleblower complaint was about Trump/The Ukraine/Biden, and not some unrelated reason.)

I agree with most everything you say here, but let us not forget that last night Rudy said, on live TV no less, that even if the President did it, it's OK (paraphrase).

BobTheCoward · 20th September 2019, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Except of course that no formal request for an investigation has been made by the U.S. (suggesting that this is more of a smear tactic than a legitimate investigation into corruption).

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukrain...ial-us-request

In addition you also have proportionality... Even if there is a legitimate reason to investigate Biden, making major foreign policy changes that can affect the geopolitical situation just because "Gosh, person X didn't pay their taxes" seems excessive (considering the Trump administration continues to support Saudi Arabia after they had a reporter actually killed.)

And finally... lets say there was a reason to investigate Biden. Lets say the crimes were serious enough to suspend aid if they were uncooperative.... The Trump administration may have still broken the law by not passing on a legitimate report to congress in a timely manner, as they were required to do.

(This is of course assumes the whistleblower complaint was about Trump/The Ukraine/Biden, and not some unrelated reason.)

I didn't comment on the whistleblower because the post I was responding to did not mention the whistleblower.

dudalb · 20th September 2019, 11:54 AM

And IMHO Trump will get away with it.
If he is relected, I see no peaceful way of restoring democracy and rule of law.

alfaniner · 20th September 2019, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

I found it amazing that CNN considered it so valuable to show that they didn't have a commercial break for almost 30 minutes. It was almost a refreshing break from all the drug and insurance ads.

Originally Posted by chrispy

Huh. Y'know, I was so entranced that I didn't even notice that!! Good spot!

That's part of what made it so exhausting to watch. Cuomo never had a chance to reset and the audience to catch its breath. Or to get Guiliani to shut up for more than a second or two.

chrispy · 20th September 2019, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

That's part of what made it so exhausting to watch. Cuomo never had a chance to reset and the audience to catch its breath. Or to get Guiliani to shut up for more than a second or two.

I don't have CNN where I live, so I watched on youtube afterward and just assumed they had cut out the commercials!!

varwoche · 20th September 2019, 03:06 PM

Words from Trump's mouth lend credence to the reporting that (1) it was Ukraine and (2) it involved pressuring them to investigate Biden.

Quote:

Asked if he mentioned former vice president and Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden in the conversation, Trump said, "Somebody ought to look into Joe Biden's statement because it's disgraceful."

Stacyhs · 20th September 2019, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And IMHO Trump will get away with it.
If he is relected, I see no peaceful way of restoring democracy and rule of law.

That's been the pattern so far. I also have little doubt that the GOP will continue to back Trump no matter how outrageous or illegal Trump's actions are. I suspect they will fight releasing this info to the Intelligence Committee through every means they can muster just like they have with Trump's taxes. If there is nothing illegal in that phone call, as Trump has claimed, then why are they refusing to release it? I have the same question about his tax returns. He wouldn't fight it this hard if he isn't hiding something.

JoeMorgue · 20th September 2019, 03:24 PM

It's the thing that would end Trump's Presidency in any sane world. It will be forgotten by the end of next week when Trump does the next thing that will end his Presidency in any sane world.

The Republicans will make excuses, the Democrats will make angry screeching noises at the wall.

RecoveringYuppy · 20th September 2019, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And IMHO Trump will get away with it.
If he is relected, I see no peaceful way of restoring democracy and rule of law.

Yeah, I agree our some tweaks might be in order, but democracy and rule of law don't need "restoring", they aren't gone.

acbytesla · 20th September 2019, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by varwoche

Words from Trump's mouth lend credence to the reporting that (1) it was Ukraine and (2) it involved pressuring them to investigate Biden.

Add Rudy Giuliani's best impression of Colonel Nathan R.Jessep in his interview where he says he first denied he asked the Ukraine to investigate Biden and moments later said he did and was proud of it. Add the fact that aid to the Ukraine was mysteriously held up and then was released to them.

Trump is the most corrupt President in US history and should be lined up against a wall and shot for Treason. After his impeachment and a fair trial. Unfortunately the Republicans in Congress are just as corrupt. So goodbye democracy. 226 years was a good run I guess.

Checkmite · 20th September 2019, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

and should be lined up against a wall and shot

No, stop that.

a_unique_person · 20th September 2019, 04:18 PM

Trump did have a conversation, but it was a "beautiful conversation". So you can all back off now.

acbytesla · 20th September 2019, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Checkmite

No, stop that.

Why? This President deserves it. He's destroying the republic that so many gave their last full measure of devotion to preserve.

Venom · 20th September 2019, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Trump is the most corrupt President in US history and should be lined up against a wall and shot for Treason.

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Why? This President deserves it. He's destroying the republic that so many gave their last full measure of devotion to preserve.

dudalb · 20th September 2019, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

Yeah, I agree our some tweaks might be in order, but democracy and rule of law don't need "restoring", they aren't gone.

If Trump is reelected, they will be. I am convinced of that.

dudalb · 20th September 2019, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Add Rudy Giuliani's best impression of Colonel Nathan R.Jessep in his interview where he says he first denied he asked the Ukraine to investigate Biden and moments later said he did and was proud of it. Add the fact that aid to the Ukraine was mysteriously held up and then was released to them.

Trump is the most corrupt President in US history and should be lined up against a wall and shot for Treason. After his impeachment and a fair trial. Unfortunately the Republicans in Congress are just as corrupt. So goodbye democracy. 226 years was a good run I guess.

So let's just rollover and play dead for them......nice.

And the kind of despair you seem to be indulging in benefits nobody but Trump.

I am so sick and tired of this eternal angst. I expect it from teenagers, but when grown people continue to indulge in it I get worried.

BobTheCoward · 20th September 2019, 05:10 PM

You guys should look up rule of law functionalism.

Quote:

The functional interpretation of the term "rule of law", consistent with the traditional English meaning, contrasts the "rule of law" with the "rule of man".[36] According to the functional view, a society in which government officers have a great deal of discretion has a low degree of "rule of law", whereas a society in which government officers have little discretion has a high degree of "rule of law".[36] Upholding the rule of law can sometimes require the punishment of those who commit offenses that are justifiable under natural law but not statutory law.[37] The rule of law is thus somewhat at odds with flexibility, even when flexibility may be preferable.[36]

Rule of law is not very compatible with a system possessing as much discretion as the US. There is just a near uncountable veto points where actors can use discretion to sink something.

acbytesla · 20th September 2019, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

So let's just rollover and play dead for them......nice.

And the kind of despair you seem to be indulging in benefits nobody but Trump.

I am so sick and tired of this eternal angst. I expect it from teenagers, but when grown people continue to indulge in it I get worried.

I've read similar posts from you. But with Republicans and the courts blocking every inquiry, gerrymandering, fixing elections and being unwilling to follow the rule of law that is the end of the republic.

This latest scandal was determined to be an "urgent threat" by Trump's own appointed Inspector General. The whistleblower law is very clear that this information is to be forwarded to Congress. What business does the acting director of National Intelligence has in involving the AG and not following the law.?

Laws mean nothing if they can be circumvented this way. Trump and his cabal are criminals and the Republican party is taking a jackhammer to the foundation that has made this nation prosper for two centuries. Perhaps we can rise from the ashes of this arson caused blaze. But I'm afraid it's too late.

BobTheCoward · 20th September 2019, 05:23 PM

Someone was talking about roadblocks earlier.

I heard a good one.the law in question applies to an intelligence activity. The president in his capacity as ambassador and negotiator is not engaged in an intelligence activity. The law doesn't apply.

acbytesla · 20th September 2019, 05:30 PM

Fair warning to all. Don't go down the Bob rabbit hole.

BobTheCoward · 20th September 2019, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Fair warning to all. Don't go down the Bob rabbit hole.

You are literally the person who brought up Republican courts blocking things. I have an example of that in a legal argument I have already seen trialed ballooned. It supports your point.

acbytesla · 20th September 2019, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

You are literally the person who brought up Republican courts blocking things. I have an example of that in a legal argument I have already seen trialed ballooned. It supports your point.

Who are you? Pennywise?

BobTheCoward · 20th September 2019, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Who are you? Pennywise?

I don't understand

acbytesla · 20th September 2019, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

I don't understand

Read the book or see the movie.

BobTheCoward · 20th September 2019, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Read the book or see the movie.

I don't like punk rock.

Trebuchet · 20th September 2019, 06:24 PM

Let's see, Trump is threatening Ukraine because previously Biden threatened Ukraine. I've got an idea! Why don't they both just withdraw from the 2020 election? They're too old anyhow!

Mumbles · 20th September 2019, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I've read similar posts from you. But with Republicans and the courts blocking every inquiry, gerrymandering, fixing elections and being unwilling to follow the rule of law that is the end of the republic.

This latest scandal was determined to be an "urgent threat" by Trump's own appointed Inspector General. The whistleblower law is very clear that this information is to be forwarded to Congress. What business does the acting director of National Intelligence has in involving the AG and not following the law.?

Laws mean nothing if they can be circumvented this way. Trump and his cabal are criminals and the Republican party is taking a jackhammer to the foundation that has made this nation prosper for two centuries. Perhaps we can rise from the ashes of this arson caused blaze. But I'm afraid it's too late.

...from this?

Look, I frankly agree that Dolt 45 & crew are skating pretty close to outright treason (and would likely skate right over that line, were we at at war according to congress, which we aren't), but in my view, this isn't much. And as much as you want to talk about "two centuries", I figure...maybe 55 years, not including a brief period after the Civil War. Want to save things? Well, there are plenty of groups working to preserve it, and there always have been. Some are a century or more old, some formed up on nov. 9th 2016 or later. Find a local one, get to work, and stop whining.

Or, you can watch other people work via the internet, contribute on your own, and stop whining.

But there's a common theme here, you may have noticed.

Stacyhs · 20th September 2019, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Trebuchet

Let's see, Trump is threatening Ukraine because previously Biden threatened Ukraine. I've got an idea! Why don't they both just withdraw from the 2020 election? They're too old anyhow!

There's big difference between what Trump (allegedly) did and what Biden did. Trump was trying to get info on Biden to affect the election in his favor. Biden's call for firing of the Ukrainian top prosecutor was also the position of the wider US government and other international organizations. Apples and oranges.
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...n-and-ukraine/

Minoosh · 20th September 2019, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Trump and his cabal are criminals and the Republican party is taking a jackhammer to the foundation that has made this nation prosper for two centuries. Perhaps we can rise from the ashes of this arson caused blaze. But I'm afraid it's too late.

I don't doubt that the Republicans would do a lot to cover for Trump. But I also think key players in the GOP would at least want to know what they're covering up. The potential downside of his shenanigans could come back to bite them. So I think some will want to know what their exposure is. Also, national security is one of the few issues where I see some daylight between Trump an GOP leadership. Anything involving promises he makes to other heads of state might get their attention.

Minoosh · 20th September 2019, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

You are literally the person who brought up Republican courts blocking things. I have an example of that in a legal argument I have already seen trialed ballooned. It supports your point.

If the point is that Trump and his cabal have seized the apparatus of democracy, some of us aren't all that happy to see it supported.

Skeptic Ginger · 20th September 2019, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

Trump did have a conversation, but it was a "beautiful conversation". So you can all back off now.

dudalb · 20th September 2019, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I've read similar posts from you. But with Republicans and the courts blocking every inquiry, gerrymandering, fixing elections and being unwilling to follow the rule of law that is the end of the republic.

This latest scandal was determined to be an "urgent threat" by Trump's own appointed Inspector General. The whistleblower law is very clear that this information is to be forwarded to Congress. What business does the acting director of National Intelligence has in involving the AG and not following the law.?

Laws mean nothing if they can be circumvented this way. Trump and his cabal are criminals and the Republican party is taking a jackhammer to the foundation that has made this nation prosper for two centuries. Perhaps we can rise from the ashes of this arson caused blaze. But I'm afraid it's too late.

So you are going to join me in thinking that armed resistence might be necessary if that happens?
Or we just roll over and play dead?

20th September 2019, 10:28 AM	#1
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,402	Trump whistleblower brewing scandal I think this merits a thread. The administration is taking what are apparently unprecedented steps to withhold the whistleblower report from congress. It's been reported it involves Trump and the Ukraine. Meanwhile, Guiliani spews gibberish out both sides of his mouth about his efforts, on Trump's behalf, to get Ukraine to investigate Biden. Rudy Giuliani denies asking Ukraine to investigate Biden -- before admitting it
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot. My authority is total - Trump

20th September 2019, 10:42 AM	#2
Cain Straussian Join Date: May 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 14,275	I honestly don't see the big deal. The president only -- allegedly -- offered favorable treatment to a foreign government in exchange for taking out a political opponent. Trump correctly notes the whistleblower is highly partisan despite not knowing the person's identity (and if he does know their identity, then a "crime" has been committed, but it's actually REAL whistleblowing and should be pardoned).
	__________________ April 13th, 2018: Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.

20th September 2019, 11:05 AM	#3
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	What is being reported now is that the call MAY have been Trump and the Ukraine president regarding Ukraine investigating Biden for Trump. Giuliani admits he asked Ukraine to investigate Biden. Giuliani would not have done that without Trump's direction to do so. Didn't the GOP have a fit when they accused the DNC of hiring a foreign national (Steele) to investigate a presidential candidate (Trump)?
	Last edited by Stacyhs; 20th September 2019 at 11:07 AM.

20th September 2019, 11:17 AM	#4
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,095	Originally Posted by Stacyhs What is being reported now is that the call MAY have been Trump and the Ukraine president regarding Ukraine investigating Biden for Trump. Giuliani admits he asked Ukraine to investigate Biden. Giuliani would not have done that without Trump's direction to do so. Not only asking Ukraine to investigate, but possibly tying it to military aid. (i.e. if you don't investigate Biden we won't help protect you against Russia). Which means Trump may be using taxpayer money as a way to leverage another country to dig up dirt on a political rival. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...n-military-aid
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

20th September 2019, 11:23 AM	#6
Random Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,217	So far, the best bit was Rudy Giuliani's epic meltdown on CNN. I am reminded of the idea of a "Golden Shovel Lawyer", an expensive attorney who shows up in court in a fancy suit and tie and proceeds to bury their client.
Random Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,217	__________________ "...Am I actually watching Big Bird argue with the Egyptian God of the Dead? Is PBS sending some kind of weird religious message here?"

20th September 2019, 11:23 AM	#5
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,196	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Not only asking Ukraine to investigate, but possibly tying it to military aid. (i.e. if you don't investigate Biden we won't help protect you against Russia). Which means Trump may be using taxpayer money as a way to leverage another country to dig up dirt on a political rival. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...n-military-aid Or incentive to a country to investigate alleged corruption. Justice cannot stop simply because it just so happens to involve someone you know. It could be difficult to prove it was the former.

20th September 2019, 11:36 AM	#7
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 18,956	I've stacked up on popcorn already. "The Resistance" should check if they have enough handkerchiefs for all those liberal tears they will be crying. Likely it will be kept on low profile for the best part of another year, though, especially if creepy and sleepy uncle Joe really is chosen to run against Orange Man (who is bad).
	__________________ If they want the pandemic to end, they just have to stop testing. Then people will die of the flu again, like they did before - Wolfgang Wodarg

20th September 2019, 11:42 AM	#8
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,095	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Or incentive to a country to investigate alleged corruption. Justice cannot stop simply because it just so happens to involve someone you know. It could be difficult to prove it was the former. Except of course that no formal request for an investigation has been made by the U.S. (suggesting that this is more of a smear tactic than a legitimate investigation into corruption). https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukrain...ial-us-request In addition you also have proportionality... Even if there is a legitimate reason to investigate Biden, making major foreign policy changes that can affect the geopolitical situation just because "Gosh, person X didn't pay their taxes" seems excessive (considering the Trump administration continues to support Saudi Arabia after they had a reporter actually killed.) And finally... lets say there was a reason to investigate Biden. Lets say the crimes were serious enough to suspend aid if they were uncooperative.... The Trump administration may have still broken the law by not passing on a legitimate report to congress in a timely manner, as they were required to do. (This is of course assumes the whistleblower complaint was about Trump/The Ukraine/Biden, and not some unrelated reason.)
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

20th September 2019, 11:48 AM	#9
chrispy Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Solola, Guatemala Posts: 1,049	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Except of course that no formal request for an investigation has been made by the U.S. (suggesting that this is more of a smear tactic than a legitimate investigation into corruption). https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukrain...ial-us-request In addition you also have proportionality... Even if there is a legitimate reason to investigate Biden, making major foreign policy changes that can affect the geopolitical situation just because "Gosh, person X didn't pay their taxes" seems excessive (considering the Trump administration continues to support Saudi Arabia after they had a reporter actually killed.) And finally... lets say there was a reason to investigate Biden. Lets say the crimes were serious enough to suspend aid if they were uncooperative.... The Trump administration may have still broken the law by not passing on a legitimate report to congress in a timely manner, as they were required to do. (This is of course assumes the whistleblower complaint was about Trump/The Ukraine/Biden, and not some unrelated reason.) I agree with most everything you say here, but let us not forget that last night Rudy said, on live TV no less, that even if the President did it, it's OK (paraphrase).

20th September 2019, 11:49 AM	#10
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,196	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Except of course that no formal request for an investigation has been made by the U.S. (suggesting that this is more of a smear tactic than a legitimate investigation into corruption). https://www.thedailybeast.com/ukrain...ial-us-request In addition you also have proportionality... Even if there is a legitimate reason to investigate Biden, making major foreign policy changes that can affect the geopolitical situation just because "Gosh, person X didn't pay their taxes" seems excessive (considering the Trump administration continues to support Saudi Arabia after they had a reporter actually killed.) And finally... lets say there was a reason to investigate Biden. Lets say the crimes were serious enough to suspend aid if they were uncooperative.... The Trump administration may have still broken the law by not passing on a legitimate report to congress in a timely manner, as they were required to do. (This is of course assumes the whistleblower complaint was about Trump/The Ukraine/Biden, and not some unrelated reason.) I didn't comment on the whistleblower because the post I was responding to did not mention the whistleblower.

20th September 2019, 11:54 AM	#11
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,307	And IMHO Trump will get away with it. If he is relected, I see no peaceful way of restoring democracy and rule of law.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

20th September 2019, 12:40 PM	#12
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 24,841	Originally Posted by alfaniner I found it amazing that CNN considered it so valuable to show that they didn't have a commercial break for almost 30 minutes. It was almost a refreshing break from all the drug and insurance ads. Originally Posted by chrispy Huh. Y'know, I was so entranced that I didn't even notice that!! Good spot! That's part of what made it so exhausting to watch. Cuomo never had a chance to reset and the audience to catch its breath. Or to get Guiliani to shut up for more than a second or two.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

20th September 2019, 02:03 PM	#13
chrispy Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Solola, Guatemala Posts: 1,049	Originally Posted by alfaniner That's part of what made it so exhausting to watch. Cuomo never had a chance to reset and the audience to catch its breath. Or to get Guiliani to shut up for more than a second or two. I don't have CNN where I live, so I watched on youtube afterward and just assumed they had cut out the commercials!!

20th September 2019, 03:06 PM	#14
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 15,402	Words from Trump's mouth lend credence to the reporting that (1) it was Ukraine and (2) it involved pressuring them to investigate Biden. Quote: Asked if he mentioned former vice president and Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden in the conversation, Trump said, "Somebody ought to look into Joe Biden's statement because it's disgraceful."
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot. My authority is total - Trump

20th September 2019, 03:21 PM	#15
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,972	Originally Posted by dudalb And IMHO Trump will get away with it. If he is relected, I see no peaceful way of restoring democracy and rule of law. That's been the pattern so far. I also have little doubt that the GOP will continue to back Trump no matter how outrageous or illegal Trump's actions are. I suspect they will fight releasing this info to the Intelligence Committee through every means they can muster just like they have with Trump's taxes. If there is nothing illegal in that phone call, as Trump has claimed, then why are they refusing to release it? I have the same question about his tax returns. He wouldn't fight it this hard if he isn't hiding something.

20th September 2019, 03:24 PM	#16
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,557	It's the thing that would end Trump's Presidency in any sane world. It will be forgotten by the end of next week when Trump does the next thing that will end his Presidency in any sane world. The Republicans will make excuses, the Democrats will make angry screeching noises at the wall.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

20th September 2019, 03:25 PM	#17
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,686	Originally Posted by dudalb And IMHO Trump will get away with it. If he is relected, I see no peaceful way of restoring democracy and rule of law. Yeah, I agree our some tweaks might be in order, but democracy and rule of law don't need "restoring", they aren't gone.

20th September 2019, 03:46 PM	#18
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by varwoche Words from Trump's mouth lend credence to the reporting that (1) it was Ukraine and (2) it involved pressuring them to investigate Biden. Add Rudy Giuliani's best impression of Colonel Nathan R.Jessep in his interview where he says he first denied he asked the Ukraine to investigate Biden and moments later said he did and was proud of it. Add the fact that aid to the Ukraine was mysteriously held up and then was released to them. Trump is the most corrupt President in US history and should be lined up against a wall and shot for Treason. After his impeachment and a fair trial. Unfortunately the Republicans in Congress are just as corrupt. So goodbye democracy. 226 years was a good run I guess.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

20th September 2019, 03:49 PM	#19
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 26,389	Originally Posted by acbytesla and should be lined up against a wall and shot No, stop that.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

20th September 2019, 04:18 PM	#20
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 43,033	Trump did have a conversation, but it was a "beautiful conversation". So you can all back off now.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

20th September 2019, 04:32 PM	#21
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by Checkmite No, stop that. Why? This President deserves it. He's destroying the republic that so many gave their last full measure of devotion to preserve.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

20th September 2019, 04:36 PM	#22
Venom Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 4,887	Originally Posted by acbytesla Trump is the most corrupt President in US history and should be lined up against a wall and shot for Treason. Originally Posted by acbytesla Why? This President deserves it. He's destroying the republic that so many gave their last full measure of devotion to preserve.

20th September 2019, 04:55 PM	#23
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,307	Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy Yeah, I agree our some tweaks might be in order, but democracy and rule of law don't need "restoring", they aren't gone. If Trump is reelected, they will be. I am convinced of that.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

20th September 2019, 04:57 PM	#24
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,307	Originally Posted by acbytesla Add Rudy Giuliani's best impression of Colonel Nathan R.Jessep in his interview where he says he first denied he asked the Ukraine to investigate Biden and moments later said he did and was proud of it. Add the fact that aid to the Ukraine was mysteriously held up and then was released to them. Trump is the most corrupt President in US history and should be lined up against a wall and shot for Treason. After his impeachment and a fair trial. Unfortunately the Republicans in Congress are just as corrupt. So goodbye democracy. 226 years was a good run I guess. So let's just rollover and play dead for them......nice. And the kind of despair you seem to be indulging in benefits nobody but Trump. I am so sick and tired of this eternal angst. I expect it from teenagers, but when grown people continue to indulge in it I get worried.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. Last edited by dudalb; 20th September 2019 at 05:01 PM.

20th September 2019, 05:10 PM	#25
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,196	You guys should look up rule of law functionalism. Quote: The functional interpretation of the term "rule of law", consistent with the traditional English meaning, contrasts the "rule of law" with the "rule of man".[36] According to the functional view, a society in which government officers have a great deal of discretion has a low degree of "rule of law", whereas a society in which government officers have little discretion has a high degree of "rule of law".[36] Upholding the rule of law can sometimes require the punishment of those who commit offenses that are justifiable under natural law but not statutory law.[37] The rule of law is thus somewhat at odds with flexibility, even when flexibility may be preferable.[36] Rule of law is not very compatible with a system possessing as much discretion as the US. There is just a near uncountable veto points where actors can use discretion to sink something.

20th September 2019, 05:20 PM	#26
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by dudalb So let's just rollover and play dead for them......nice. And the kind of despair you seem to be indulging in benefits nobody but Trump. I am so sick and tired of this eternal angst. I expect it from teenagers, but when grown people continue to indulge in it I get worried. I've read similar posts from you. But with Republicans and the courts blocking every inquiry, gerrymandering, fixing elections and being unwilling to follow the rule of law that is the end of the republic. This latest scandal was determined to be an "urgent threat" by Trump's own appointed Inspector General. The whistleblower law is very clear that this information is to be forwarded to Congress. What business does the acting director of National Intelligence has in involving the AG and not following the law.? Laws mean nothing if they can be circumvented this way. Trump and his cabal are criminals and the Republican party is taking a jackhammer to the foundation that has made this nation prosper for two centuries. Perhaps we can rise from the ashes of this arson caused blaze. But I'm afraid it's too late.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . Last edited by acbytesla; 20th September 2019 at 05:21 PM.

20th September 2019, 05:23 PM	#27
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,196	Someone was talking about roadblocks earlier. I heard a good one.the law in question applies to an intelligence activity. The president in his capacity as ambassador and negotiator is not engaged in an intelligence activity. The law doesn't apply.

20th September 2019, 05:30 PM	#28
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Fair warning to all. Don't go down the Bob rabbit hole.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

20th September 2019, 05:40 PM	#29
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,196	Originally Posted by acbytesla Fair warning to all. Don't go down the Bob rabbit hole. You are literally the person who brought up Republican courts blocking things. I have an example of that in a legal argument I have already seen trialed ballooned. It supports your point.

20th September 2019, 05:43 PM	#30
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward You are literally the person who brought up Republican courts blocking things. I have an example of that in a legal argument I have already seen trialed ballooned. It supports your point. Who are you? Pennywise?
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

20th September 2019, 05:45 PM	#31
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,196	Originally Posted by acbytesla Who are you? Pennywise? I don't understand

20th September 2019, 05:51 PM	#32
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,174	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward I don't understand Read the book or see the movie.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

20th September 2019, 06:13 PM	#33
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,196	Originally Posted by acbytesla Read the book or see the movie. I don't like punk rock.

20th September 2019, 06:24 PM	#34
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 30,980	Let's see, Trump is threatening Ukraine because previously Biden threatened Ukraine. I've got an idea! Why don't they both just withdraw from the 2020 election? They're too old anyhow!
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

20th September 2019, 06:32 PM	#35
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,394	Originally Posted by acbytesla I've read similar posts from you. But with Republicans and the courts blocking every inquiry, gerrymandering, fixing elections and being unwilling to follow the rule of law that is the end of the republic. This latest scandal was determined to be an "urgent threat" by Trump's own appointed Inspector General. The whistleblower law is very clear that this information is to be forwarded to Congress. What business does the acting director of National Intelligence has in involving the AG and not following the law.? Laws mean nothing if they can be circumvented this way. Trump and his cabal are criminals and the Republican party is taking a jackhammer to the foundation that has made this nation prosper for two centuries. Perhaps we can rise from the ashes of this arson caused blaze. But I'm afraid it's too late. ...from this? Look, I frankly agree that Dolt 45 & crew are skating pretty close to outright treason (and would likely skate right over that line, were we at at war according to congress, which we aren't), but in my view, this isn't much. And as much as you want to talk about "two centuries", I figure...maybe 55 years, not including a brief period after the Civil War. Want to save things? Well, there are plenty of groups working to preserve it, and there always have been. Some are a century or more old, some formed up on nov. 9th 2016 or later. Find a local one, get to work, and stop whining. Or, you can watch other people work via the internet, contribute on your own, and stop whining. But there's a common theme here, you may have noticed.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,394