Continuation Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's silly to discuss who said what about nukes when the obvious risk was there over the last 4 years. Trump could easily have blundered into launching nukes, especially against Iran. Trump talked about nukes, IIRC, saying why not use them. He is that stupid.

But along came another tragedy waiting for an incompetent delusional narcissist POTUS: a world-wide pandemic. With as many as 4,000 deaths a day, it's no surprise we passed 400,000 deaths today. It was not necessary that all those deaths had to happen. COVID 19 could have been mitigated with a competent POTUS who didn't address the disease with fantasy solutions.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Here’s an excellent place to start:

https://www.amazon.com/Rocket-Man-Nu...d/dp/163051591


That’s a book edited and contributed by John Gartner, Lance Dodes and a few others who contributed to the “Dangerous Case” book.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/co...r=accesspaylog.

This one is behind a paywall, but it’s written by Lee and Sachs. The title says it all.


Finally, here is Dr Lee saying exactly what I said she said:

https://btlonline.org/dangerous-days...ection-loss-2/


If you go back in this thread, you will find many more examples. These are ones I hadn’t seen here before.

The second link, Bandy's interview does, indeed, support what you claim. Now watch how this is done: You are right and I was incorrect. My ego was not shattered by admitting I was wrong, my world did not fall apart, my life will go on. I will survive. Try it sometime. Like admitting this thread's topic is about how Trump's mental illness is what makes him dangerous and not about the dangers he poses as the leader of a national movement for people who feel marginalized.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by xjx388

Here’s an excellent place to start:

https://www.amazon.com/Rocket-Man-Nu...d/dp/163051591


That’s a book edited and contributed by John Gartner, Lance Dodes and a few others who contributed to the “Dangerous Case” book.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/co...r=accesspaylog.

This one is behind a paywall, but it’s written by Lee and Sachs. The title says it all.


Finally, here is Dr Lee saying exactly what I said she said:

https://btlonline.org/dangerous-days...ection-loss-2/



If you go back in this thread, you will find many more examples. These are ones I hadn’t seen here before.

I certainly raised the risk

I specifically said that I am not enough of an expert to know whether his obvious mental illnesses made him a risk for murder-suicide when things went wrong.

My point was that that we had enough evidence of his mental illness and rage that that warranted a proper psychological examination.

Pretending that cult leaders don't do this so Trump wouldn't because [reasons] and [you cannot evaluate Trump without a full evaluation] are not consistent.

You are left with a figleaf of ethics, but only a very eccentric interpretation. It's probably harsh to ban gun sales to someone (like Trump) with a history of domestic violence unless you have a full psychological examination.

[Delvo]

Pictures of Trump's kids during the inauguration showed an interesting little glimpse of how mental illness in one generation can cause the same kind or a different kind of mental illness in the next. They were getting teary-eyed! They've probably been raised all along on the idea that their father was practically omnipotent, and now they were watching him crash not even just to a normal mere mortal level but all the way through to utter helplessness. Now they're like when Doctor Dorian on "Scrubs" watched his mentor Doctor Cox walk away in despair and imagined seeing his superhero cape fall to the floor behind him.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Delvo

Pictures of Trump's kids during the inauguration showed an interesting little glimpse of how mental illness in one generation can cause the same kind or a different kind of mental illness in the next. They were getting teary-eyed! They've probably been raised all along on the idea that their father was practically omnipotent, and now they were watching him crash not even just to a normal mere mortal level but all the way through to utter helplessness. Now they're like when Doctor Dorian on "Scrubs" watched his mentor Doctor Cox walk away in despair and imagined seeing his superhero cape fall to the floor behind him.

Childhood mental and emotional abuse can definitely cause mental illness in the next generation. Trump's sociopath father, Fred, no doubt had a great deal to do with Donald's development of NPD and sociopathy. Read Mary Trump's book and you'll see the same family dynamics at work in this generation as in the last. Don Jr. definitely needs some help. Likely Eric, too. Ivanka? She's actually the one that scares me the most. I think she may be the most like her father under that cold facade.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not sure it has sunk in yet to much of the country (not talking about the minions) just how mentally ill Trump is. There are going to be a lot of revelations in the next weeks to months that I think will leave people saying, wow, what a nightmare we just went through.

[The Great Zaganza]

being President lends some gravitas to every brain fart.
The same words coming from a retired, third-rate businessman just don't get the same benefit of the doubt.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I'm not sure it has sunk in yet to much of the country (not talking about the minions) just how mentally ill Trump is. There are going to be a lot of revelations in the next weeks to months that I think will leave people saying, wow, what a nightmare we just went through.

It'll be like Reagan - "Who* could have spotted that he was showing signs of dementia, when the officials hid it so well"

It's going to be far harder to claim ignorance this time. And as you say, lots is sure to come out.

I wonder where in the WH is safe from Russian bugs now. I'm guessing that, like old-skool daleks upstairs is a better bet.



*Except for the commentators (mainly satirists admittedly) that I recall discussing this at the time.

[bruto]

One amusing bit I heard recently is that, apparently, one of the reasons the fearless leader did not pardon himself and his family was that his legal advisors told him he'd have to specify the crimes. Since Ford's pardon of Nixon and Carter's pardon of draft evaders contradict that, we can presume they lied, either from malice or ignorance, but in either case the nowexpresident slurped it up.

The more cynical might suggest that since the nowexpresident's penchant for pardoning was those who would pay, the nowexpresident was a poor risk.

[RecoveringYuppy]

Originally Posted by bruto

One amusing bit I heard recently is that, apparently, one of the reasons the fearless leader did not pardon himself and his family was that his legal advisors told him he'd have to specify the crimes. Since Ford's pardon of Nixon and Carter's pardon of draft evaders contradict that, we can presume they lied, either from malice or ignorance, but in either case the now ex-president slurped it up.


The more cynical might suggest that since the now ex-president's penchant for pardoning was those who would pay, the now ex-president was a poor risk.

One of these things isn't like the other.

Are you even sure that's what was said to Trump? In any event, even if that was said it isn't necessarily a lie. Ford's pardon of Nixon was never tested in court. A self pardon of Trump almost certainly would be tested in court.

[Bob001]

Four Trump biographers assess Dear Leader. Hint: They weren't surprised at anything.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...mpology-460321

[bruto]

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

One of these things isn't like the other.

Are you even sure that's what was said to Trump? In any event, even if that was said it isn't necessarily a lie. Ford's pardon of Nixon was never tested in court. A self pardon of Trump almost certainly would be tested in court.

I'm not sure, since quite happily I was not there, which is why I qualified my statement. It appears that there is precedent for pardons which do not enumerate specific crimes. Whether such a pardon would survive a court test we can't entirely predict, but given the makeup of the Supreme Court these days, I suspect it might. To say it just can't be done seems inaccurate.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Bob001

Four Trump biographers assess Dear Leader. Hint: They weren't surprised at anything.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...mpology-460321

Excellent article. Thanks for posting it.

I don't think that anyone who really knew Trump could have been surprised at his actions as president. Everything the people in the article said is in complete agreement with what I'm reading in Michael Cohen's book Disloyal.

[Bob001]

More from Mary Trump:
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/mary...125547887.html

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Bob001

More from Mary Trump:
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/mary...125547887.html

I found the comments interesting, especially those of the Trump supporters. Many of them are still totally convinced that Trump is a genius businessman who listened to them. One even said "that's what his rallies were for". Since when did Trump do anything but bloviate at his rallies? Another said Trump accomplished everything he had promised and then proceeded to list all his accomplishments. Notably missing were a healthcare plan, Mexico's payment for the wall, the return of manufacturing, the coal industry jobs, etc. and the mention of over 400K dead from Covid.

[jimbob]

Yes but apart from trying to incite a coup (ineptly, and in such a way that he's exposed for his crimes) he's not shown any abnormal behaviour that was self-destructive or causing him distress that was particularly dangerous in the last month.

[Meadmaker]

I haven't followed this thread for a while, just checking in on it occasionally, so I apologize if this next contribution is tired old ground for this thread.

I have been one of the people who think's Trump's narcissism is sufficiently extreme to call it mental illness, but I wonder if his current behavior is typical of narcissists for whom reality just isn't working out for them. When their image of themselves as great and mighty people comes crashing down, do they go into complete breakdown? Full scale delusion?

Specifically, I am reacting to the story that all of his impeachment lawyers walked out on him. I suppose, technically, the weren't "his" lawyers because he hadn't paid them, but his potential legal team wouldn't take the case. Rumor has it it's because they wanted to go with the "you can't impeach an ex-President" defense, whereas The Donald wanted to go with the "there was massive voter fraud" defense.

So, that whole, "massive voter fraud" belief appears to be something he truly believes, in which case, he's insane. Totally delusional. His followers who actually believe those claims could just be written off as stupid or ignorant, but Trump has all the information he needs to know whether those claims are true. He could, or at least he could have, investigated and left no stone unturned in searching for it. In fact, he kind of did. He had advisors by the dozen telling him, "Sorry, Don. There's just no case here."

To persist in that belief is a sign of mental illness.

Is that kind of delusion common among narcissists following some sort of unfortunate encounter with reality? i.e. when a wildly successful, in whatever realm, narcissist suffers great failures that cannot be denied by a a sane person, do they tend to opt for insanity rather than face reality?

[Stacyhs]

According to Mary Trump, he does truly believe he won:

Quote:

“He’s the only person I’ve ever met who can gaslight himself,” Mary Trump, a clinical psychologist and critic of her uncle, told VICE News in an interview on Monday. “I don’t think he’s ever accepted the truth of the loss. I don't think he’s psychologically or emotionally capable of that.”

I don't think it's a matter of "opting for insanity". He doesn't have a choice. Like Mary says: he's not capable of anything else.

[dirtywick]

it’s hard to tell since he also lies constantly

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

According to Mary Trump, he does truly believe he won:
.....

Michael Cohen expressed the same view in the same piece.

Quote:

“It’s the difference between a ******** artist and a sociopath,” Cohen told VICE News. “Donald Trump is a sociopath, because he does believe his own ********.”

https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgq5...ary-trump-says

[Stacyhs]

No doubt he does believe a lot of his own crap. Not all of it, though. He knows when he's lying most of the time. What makes him a sociopath is that he just doesn't care. He thinks he's entitled to lie as long as it works for him because he's above the rules that apply to everyone else.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

No doubt he does believe a lot of his own crap. Not all of it, though. He knows when he's lying most of the time. What makes him a sociopath is that he just doesn't care. He thinks he's entitled to lie as long as it works for him because he's above the rules that apply to everyone else.

I used to think that, but after the inauguration crowd size claims - I started wondering if he tells himself stories that make him "bestest" and then then believes them. His lies are so utterly without focus.

[dirtywick]

honestly if you could say whatever you wanted and had half of the country tickling your balls after you said it you might just like the smell of your own farts too

[The Great Zaganza]

Trump doesn't think he's won fair&square, he thinks he would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for some meddling GOP do-gooders.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Trump doesn't think he's won fair&square, he thinks he would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for some meddling GOP do-gooders.

What struck me is that even now, he's talking to lawyers as if he still thinks he can get away with it.

After months of failed lawsuits, after his most staunch ally in the cabinet (Barr) tells him there's no there there. After investigators, lawyers, politicians, and reliable media lap dogs all tell him that he lost, he is asking very good lawyers to push the story that they tell him is bogus.

That's nuts.

I'm really just wondering if it's a common sort of nuts for his variety of narcissism, or if he has some other pathology.

[dasmiller]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

What struck me is that even now, he's talking to lawyers as if he still thinks he can get away with it.

After months of failed lawsuits, after his most staunch ally in the cabinet (Barr) tells him there's no there there. After investigators, lawyers, politicians, and reliable media lap dogs all tell him that he lost, he is asking very good lawyers to push the story that they tell him is bogus.

This may sound a little jokey, but I'm completely serious.

Look at it from Trump's point of view. The possibilities are:

1) He won the election outright

2) He won the election but it was stolen

3) He lost to Biden.

Now, let's apply Sherlock Holmes' "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth" to that list.

#1 is impossible because the networks said he lost.

#2 may be improbable but maybe it's not technically impossible

#3 is impossible because he's Trump and he's the greatest and best and most stable and (this goes on for a while).

That leaves #2 which, however improbable, must be the truth.

Quote:

That's nuts.

Yeah <sigh>

Quote:

I'm really just wondering if it's a common sort of nuts for his variety of narcissism, or if he has some other pathology.

I think this is worst than ordinary narcissism, but I don't know the narcissism scale, if there is one.

[bruto]

I suspect that t**** is delusional, in the sense that he has an idealized vision of the world as it ought to be, but not so delusional about what he is doing. His vision is, not surprisingly, stupid and crazy, but that's not entirely the point. Like many demagogues he looks at events, not as they are, but as his vision says they should be. I imagine he knows that he did not win the vote, and he knows that this was not because the count was dishonest. But he also believes that he should have won the vote, and that those who voted against him shouldn't have been enfranchised. And for him, this means that "I won the vote," though a transparent lie, contains a transcendent truth.

His vision for how the world ought to be is not evolutionary. It's radical and incendiary, and you can't get there without breaking some rules. If part of your mission is to destroy forever the obstacles to your power, then the ends always justify the means.

I remember at the time of the Iranian revolution, when a reporter commented to Khomeini about how he had lied. He replied that he had indeed, because it's proper and necessary in the quest for a higher good. I think that like the Ayatollah, our fearless ex-leader is a lying scoundrel who believes passionately that he's good.

Communists, such as Mao and his followers, Pol Pot, the Shining Path of Peru, and so forth, famously espoused a theory which was so complete and perfect that failure was impossible. When it did occur, as it always did, it could be only one explanation: enemies, foreign corruption, wreckers. Discredit, imprison, or kill them. The word "perfect" is a favorite of our fearless ex-leader. When things go wrong, it's always someone else's fault.

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by bruto

Communists, such as Mao and his followers, Pol Pot, the Shining Path of Peru, and so forth, famously espoused a theory which was so complete and perfect that failure was impossible. When it did occur, as it always did, it could be only one explanation: enemies, foreign corruption, wreckers. Discredit, imprison, or kill them. The word "perfect" is a favorite of our fearless ex-leader. When things go wrong, it's always someone else's fault.

Good analogy, despite the irony. (i.e. His followers are trusting him to keep us away from socialism, while he behaves like a communist.)

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by jimbob

I used to think that, but after the inauguration crowd size claims - I started wondering if he tells himself stories that make him "bestest" and then then believes them. His lies are so utterly without focus.

No, he knows he's lying about most things but he's likely delusional about the things that affect his core ego the most like the election. He knew that he had a one nighter with Stormy Daniels and then had Cohen pay her off. He knew he was lying when he denied that. He knew he was lying about the Ukraine "perfect phone call", about downplaying the severity of the coronavirus, about Obama being born in Kenya. He knew all those were lies.

[Skeptic Ginger]

If you look at the evolution of this particular lie (the following is of course, my opinion):

Trump absolutely cannot believe he lost. He said it himself when he said he was winning at midnight (or whenever) and then more votes "were found". They weren't found, they were counted. Trump cannot hear that.

Then you have people around Trump reinforcing the CT that the election was stolen.

Every once in a while reality breaks in. He lost the state certifications. He lost all efforts to challenge Georgia's vote.

But that fades and he starts believing a new lie, one that is being reinforced by people around him. He believes Senators can object to certifying the results and Pence can declare the election null and void.

He is told repeatedly that this cannot happen. But look at all the evidence (in his view) that it can happen. Now the delusion grows again that Trump really did win and these people were going to fix it for him.

But there are cracks in that delusion, not enough Senators are going to object and Pence is avoiding Trump's calls.

No worries, Trump will have a rally and his idolizers will tell him and the public that Trump really won the election.

This culminates in the riot that was Jan 6th. It fails. The country turns against Trump. His delusion adjusts to he really won the election but Biden is going to be inaugurated. By the time the 20th rolls around, Trump has gone through multiple scenarios in his mind how he will show Biden up with a competing event that outshines Biden's. It fails. Very few people even show up to see Trump off, let alone to see him arrive in FL.

He goes into a deep depression (not the first time since he lost the election). But in a couple days (weeks) Trump's delusion grows back. This is the mechanism a mentally ill person with Trump's disorder uses to save his ego from shattering.

Idiots like McCarthy show up in FL to stoke Trump's delusion. Many in Congress still side with Trump for reasons from they want his political base (eg Rubio and Cruz) to they actually are his political base (like Gaetz).

Trump's delusion grows back. He's imagining he'll show them all in 2024. That includes him imagining people will stand up for him in the impeachment trial.

And thus goes Trump's delusion, growing, shrinking, growing, shrinking growing... At some point, probably early on, the delusion embeds itself in Trump's brain and becomes a belief that he really did win the election and it really was stolen. What remained was his belief he will stay POTUS to his resolution that he can't stay. That might have fluctuated back and forth, but almost certainly Trump actually believes he won the election and those deep state people stole it from him.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

No, he knows he's lying about most things but he's likely delusional about the things that affect his core ego the most like the election. He knew that he had a one nighter with Stormy Daniels and then had Cohen pay her off. He knew he was lying when he denied that. He knew he was lying about the Ukraine "perfect phone call", about downplaying the severity of the coronavirus, about Obama being born in Kenya. He knew all those were lies.

I do agree he lies outright and knows he's lying like with the Stormy Daniels lie.

I agree he knew he asked the Ukraine leader for a favor and believed he could get away with it.

But I think he has come to believe he won the election and votes were "found" which is why he lost. Remember Trump has a history of believing CTs and especially believing people are out to get him because he's so great. Nothing that happens to him is ever his fault.

[xjx388]

I think continuing to dissect the core personality of a now irrelevant idiot who used to be President is a sign of mental illness. I kid, but c’mon now. Maybe it mattered at one point not so long ago, but it sho’ ‘nuff don’t matter now.

We, the country, elected a certifiably unfit President, regardless of reason for unfitness, and he caused damage to the country. History will not be kind to him. I don’t even think anyone other than a small hard core of supporters will be kind to him.

What we need to focus on and analyze are the tangible things he did and the tangible disasters he was responsible for. Continuing to insist he’s dangerously mentally ill isn’t going to win you many points, but demonstrating the damage he did has a much better chance.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Until you admit you were wrong here, xjx, you will never be able to move forward.

[xjx388]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Until you admit you were wrong here, xjx, you will never be able to move forward.

I agree to disagree about who is right or wrong. I also pledge to move forward. I will not obsess about Trump and his psychology and just allow him and his toxic memory to fade into history.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Right because there's no way he will continue to lead his minions against democracy.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I do agree he lies outright and knows he's lying like with the Stormy Daniels lie.

I agree he knew he asked the Ukraine leader for a favor and believed he could get away with it.

But I think he has come to believe he won the election and votes were "found" which is why he lost. Remember Trump has a history of believing CTs and especially believing people are out to get him because he's so great. Nothing that happens to him is ever his fault.

That's the way I see it. He's a liar and knows he lies. But he's also a delusional, mentally ill sociopath.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by xjx388

I agree to disagree about who is right or wrong. I also pledge to move forward. I will not obsess about Trump and his psychology and just allow him and his toxic memory to fade into history.

As long as he has the grip he continues to have on the GOP he will not 'fade into history'. If you think he is no longer relevant, you are sadly mistaken.

[Ladewig]

So many theories:

He knows his claims are lies.
He really believes these claims.
He lacks the capacity to understand concepts like truth and lies.
He believes he can describe things the way he wants them to be and reality will conform to his desires.
He is merely repeating transmissions from Planet X.
He is doing something else entirely.
He slides back and forth between two or more of these.


As tempting as it is to pick one, I will instead assert that until a team of psychiatrists examine him, we really have no idea which theories describe his attitudes toward truth.


How awesome it would be to hook him up to a functional MRI to see which parts of his brain are being used when he makes specific claims. Alas, that will never happen.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

So many theories:

He knows his claims are lies.
He really believes these claims.
He lacks the capacity to understand concepts like truth and lies.
He believes he can describe things the way he wants them to be and reality will conform to his desires.
He is merely repeating transmissions from Planet X.
He is doing something else entirely.
He slides back and forth between two or more of these.


As tempting as it is to pick one, I will instead assert that until a team of psychiatrists examine him, we really have no idea which theories describe his attitude to truth.


How awesome it would be to hook him up to a functional MRI to see which parts of his brain are being used when he makes specific claims. Alas, that will never happen.

No. You're falling into the same tired idea that was argued at the beginning of this thread. It's been proved false by what Dr. Lee and other mental health professionals have already said: he's a pathological liar because he has NPD.
We don't have to have a team of psychiatrists examine him to know that. To have an official diagnosis, yes; but to know it: no. He more than meets the criteria from the DSM- 5.

We also have the observations of many people who have worked intimately with him over many years, decades of his own interviews, seen his own actions as president, etc. We don't need a team of psychiatrists to examine him in person to tell us his "attitude to truth". We've had a clinical psychologist who grew up with him tell us and a group of several other mental health professionals tell us and they've been proven right.

[Bob001]

Rachel Maddow reports that in legal filings related to the impeachment trials, Trump's lawyers consistently -- and sometimes awkwardly -- refer to him as "the 45th President of the United States," never as "the former President." No one around him is permitted to refer to him as the former President.

Question: Trump is now a private citizen. What does it take for a shrink or some other authority -- maybe just a local cop concerned about the welfare of an elderly resident -- to order a psychiatric evaluation of a private citizen?