[Continuation] House Impeachment Inquiry - part 3 - Page 6

Belz... · 23rd January 2020, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Putin =/= Russia.

At this point I'm not sure there's a distinction.

Stacyhs · 23rd January 2020, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Actually, they showed videos of Trump saying outright that he wanted the Bidens investigated. It appears he said it on multiple occasions.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

He can't help himself. He doesn't get it you can't ask foreign governments to investigate your political opponents. Which is especially insane given he claimed it was wrong for Obama to investigate his campaign.

There was an interesting comment on BBC news tonight. When the Constitution was written, there was no criminal code. So Dershy's claim the Founders meant for Impeachment to be for an actual crime was impossible.

Dershy's going to be laughed at by his peers.

Of course when gaslighting is as successful as it is for Trump and his minions, I suppose they don't care.

Many Constitutional scholars disagree with Dershowitz...including Turley, the GOP's witness during the hearings.

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd January 2020, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Many Constitutional scholars disagree with Dershowitz...including Turley, the GOP's witness during the hearings.

Never mind, I misread that.

acbytesla · 23rd January 2020, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Actually, they showed videos of Trump saying outright that he wanted the Bidens investigated. It appears he said it on multiple occasions.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

He can't help himself. He doesn't get it you can't ask foreign governments to investigate your political opponents. Which is especially insane given he claimed it was wrong for Obama to investigate his campaign.

There was an interesting comment on BBC news tonight. When the Constitution was written, there was no criminal code. So Dershy's claim the Founders meant for Impeachment to be for an actual crime was impossible.

Dershy's going to be laughed at by his peers.

Of course when gaslighting is as successful as it is for Trump and his minions, I suppose they don't care.

His peers have been laughing at him for years. Long before Trump.

But you misunderstand Dershowitz and his values. He doesn't consider himself to be a Constitutional scholar. He views himself as a defense attorney. He lies on TV for his clients as he views that as a full throated defense of his clients. That's his job. Anything less and he thinks that would be a dereliction of his duty. He sees that as his overriding ethical principle.

I Am The Scum · 23rd January 2020, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Many Constitutional scholars disagree with Dershowitz...including Turley, the GOP's witness during the hearings.

Dershowitz is even disagreeing with himself from the Clinton impeachment. Back then, he said a crime wasn't required to move forward, now he's saying it is. Of course, he refuses to acknowledge the contradiction.

He isn't adding anything to the conversation except his dubious reputation and desire to see himself on TV.

Cabbage · 23rd January 2020, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

Of course, he refuses to acknowledge the contradiction.

I believe his actual quote was, "I wasn't wrong then but I'm more right now".

acbytesla · 23rd January 2020, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

Dershowitz is even disagreeing with himself from the Clinton impeachment. Back then, he said a crime wasn't required to move forward, now he's saying it is. Of course, he refuses to acknowledge the contradiction.

He isn't adding anything to the conversation except his dubious reputation and desire to see himself on TV.

The whole "it has to be a crime to be an impeachable offense" Is deserving of detision.
Never mind the fact there wasn't a Federal criminal code in 1789.
Never mind the comments of Madison and Hamilton who explicitly said that impeachment articles needn't be a criminal offense.
Never mind that there were very few crimes in any the articles of impeachment levied against the14 other government officials previously impeached.

Anyone prsenting the argument should be embarrassed. But my guess is that most of those presenting the argument know that it's absurd. This is all misdirection directed at the uninformed and lazy members of the electorate.

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd January 2020, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

Dershowitz is even disagreeing with himself from the Clinton impeachment. Back then, he said a crime wasn't required to move forward, now he's saying it is. Of course, he refuses to acknowledge the contradiction.

He isn't adding anything to the conversation except his dubious reputation and desire to see himself on TV.

He wrote that off with the lie he knows more now.

Meadmaker · 23rd January 2020, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

He doesn't get it you can't ask foreign governments to investigate your political opponents.

Why not? Why do people keep saying that?

Do I think it is a quite awful thing to do? Yes. Do I think it's a crime? No.

Withholding the aid is pretty bad. Bad enough to throw an elected president out of office? Take a poll and find out.

ETA: Let me elaborate slightly, although it's really just repeating what has already been said. I think it makes the President look bad. Petty. Childish. About half sane. Everything we know about Trump. Politically, it could be a winner. But impeachable? That's really a matter of opinion, and the opinions aren't there to throw him out.

The only question is whether this campaign commercial will play out well for the Democrats or for the Republicans. To me, it seems like the Republicans are going to get the upper hand, but I would gladly be proven wrong.

Tero · 23rd January 2020, 09:03 PM

Another lame column by Ted Cruz backer
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/opini...art/index.html

Skeptic Ginger · 23rd January 2020, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Why not? Why do people keep saying that?

Do I think it is a quite awful thing to do? Yes. Do I think it's a crime? No.

Withholding the aid is pretty bad. Bad enough to throw an elected president out of office? Take a poll and find out.

ETA: Let me elaborate slightly, although it's really just repeating what has already been said. I think it makes the President look bad. Petty. Childish. About half sane. Everything we know about Trump. Politically, it could be a winner. But impeachable? That's really a matter of opinion, and the opinions aren't there to throw him out.

The only question is whether this campaign commercial will play out well for the Democrats or for the Republicans. To me, it seems like the Republicans are going to get the upper hand, but I would gladly be proven wrong.

Did it just go over your head how corrupt Trump is?

Norman Alexander · 23rd January 2020, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

At this point I'm not sure there's a distinction [that Putin =/= Russia].

Fair point.

Mind you, Trump wants the same thing: "Trump=USA".

acbytesla · 23rd January 2020, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Why not? Why do people keep saying that?

Do I think it is a quite awful thing to do? Yes. Do I think it's a crime? No.

Withholding the aid is pretty bad. Bad enough to throw an elected president out of office? Take a poll and find out.

ETA: Let me elaborate slightly, although it's really just repeating what has already been said. I think it makes the President look bad. Petty. Childish. About half sane. Everything we know about Trump. Politically, it could be a winner. But impeachable? That's really a matter of opinion, and the opinions aren't there to throw him out.

The only question is whether this campaign commercial will play out well for the Democrats or for the Republicans. To me, it seems like the Republicans are going to get the upper hand, but I would gladly be proven wrong.

I wonder what it takes for someone to sell out like you do with this post.

People in government wield a great deal of power. But that power doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the American people. Not to the government officials themselves. They are working on our behalf, not their own. But obviously you and Trump don't care given that he violated the Emoluments clause of the Constitution even before he became President and continues to violate it to this day.

By asking a foreign power to do this, Trump is stealing what doesn't belong to him. It's no different than a hired clerk tapping the till. In this case it is more than 400 million dollars. It constitutes defrauding the American people and elections.

I know you care about the integity of our elections.

It is also bribery and extortion.

Norman Alexander · 23rd January 2020, 09:43 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

He doesn't get it you can't ask foreign governments to investigate your political opponents.

Why not? Why do people keep saying that?

This is why, apparently.

Quote:

52 U.S. Code § 30121. Contributions and donations by foreign nationals
(a) Prohibition It shall be unlawful for—
(1) a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make—
(A) a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election;
(B) a contribution or donation to a committee of a political party; or
(C) an expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement for an electioneering communication (within the meaning of section 30104(f)(3) of this title); or
(2) a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/30121

Bob001 · 23rd January 2020, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Why not? Why do people keep saying that?

Do I think it is a quite awful thing to do? Yes. Do I think it's a crime? No.
.....

You're not a lawyer, are you?

Bribery, extortion and soliciting foreign assistance in political campaigns are crimes.

Quote:

Former CIA and DOD Chief Of Staff Jeremy Bash outlined three felony crimes that Trump committed when he tried to pressure Ukraine to investigate Biden.

Bash said on MSNBC’s Deadline: White House, “Assuming the reports are true, I see three crimes here. One is extortion by the president, using a threat of withholding aid to obtain something of value. The second crime is conspiracy to engage in extortion between the president and Rudy Giuliani. And third crime is conspiracy to violate election law, given there may be three underlying crimes, I think we’re beyond the issue of the whistleblower.

https://www.politicususa.com/2019/09...s-ukraine.html

Quote:

Judge Andrew Napolitano told Fox News host Shepard Smith on Tuesday that the president effectively confessed to a crime when he admitted he asked Ukraine to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden and his son, Hunter.

Napolitano, a Fox News senior judicial analyst, had framed President Trump's earlier statement as an admission that he tried to "solicit aid for his campaign from a foreign government."

“So that to which the president has admitted is in and of itself a crime,” Smith followed. Napolitano responded, "yes," and claimed it was the same crime former Special Counsel Robert Mueller investigated as part of the long-running Russia investigation.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/judge-...admitted-crime

BobTheCoward · 23rd January 2020, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Why not? Why do people keep saying that?

Do I think it is a quite awful thing to do? Yes. Do I think it's a crime? No.

Withholding the aid is pretty bad. Bad enough to throw an elected president out of office? Take a poll and find out.

ETA: Let me elaborate slightly, although it's really just repeating what has already been said. I think it makes the President look bad. Petty. Childish. About half sane. Everything we know about Trump. Politically, it could be a winner. But impeachable? That's really a matter of opinion, and the opinions aren't there to throw him out.

The only question is whether this campaign commercial will play out well for the Democrats or for the Republicans. To me, it seems like the Republicans are going to get the upper hand, but I would gladly be proven wrong.

As a matter of your opinion, do you think it is impeachable?

smartcooky · 24th January 2020, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Why not? Why do people keep saying that?

Do I think it is a quite awful thing to do? Yes. Do I think it's a crime? No.

Withholding the aid is pretty bad. Bad enough to throw an elected president out of office? Take a poll and find out.

ETA: Let me elaborate slightly, although it's really just repeating what has already been said. I think it makes the President look bad. Petty. Childish. About half sane. Everything we know about Trump. Politically, it could be a winner. But impeachable? That's really a matter of opinion, and the opinions aren't there to throw him out.

The only question is whether this campaign commercial will play out well for the Democrats or for the Republicans. To me, it seems like the Republicans are going to get the upper hand, but I would gladly be proven wrong.

He used the Office of the President of the United States to involve the leader of an allied foreign government in a scheme to smear the reputation of a political opponent... that is using the Office for personal gain... and you don't think that is an impeachable offence?

Furthermore, the methodology he used in an attempt to get a foreign leader to announce bogus investigations of that political opponent, was to withhold financial aid to that allied foreign government which had been duly authorised by Congress. This in itself was an illegal act, a violation of 2 USC§681-8 (the Impoundment Control act), a piece of legislation that was passed specifically to prevent a POTUS doing what Trump did. That's not to mention that doing so was an act of extortion or bribery, both criminal acts. I guess you think its OK for POTUS to outright, deliberately break the Law and commit criminal acts.

I promise you, if any other western leader or politician had done what Trump had done, he/she would resign or be thrown out by their own party.

Belz... · 24th January 2020, 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

Dershowitz is even disagreeing with himself from the Clinton impeachment. Back then, he said a crime wasn't required to move forward, now he's saying it is.

Actually, he tried to correct himself by saying the same thing again, that it doesn't require a 'technical crime' but that it requires a crime-like thing.

It must really suck to have to be so partisan all the time.

Belz... · 24th January 2020, 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Fair point.

Mind you, Trump wants the same thing: "Trump=USA".

Well, he says it often enough.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 24th January 2020, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

At this point, Trump could tweet a confession admitting he did exactly what the Dems have shown he did and the GOP would claim he was just kidding or the media is misrepresenting what the confession said.

He bragged, on camera, about obstructing justice just the other day. It really doesn't matter.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 24th January 2020, 06:03 AM

Fox News' legal analyst explains why Trump should be removed from office

Squeegee Beckenheim · 24th January 2020, 06:04 AM

https://twitter.com/mattmfm/status/1...916677120?s=20

Quote:

CBS News reports that GOP Senators have been warned by Trump team: "Vote against the president, and your head will be on a pike." How is this acceptable?

Belz... · 24th January 2020, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

https://twitter.com/mattmfm/status/1...916677120?s=20

Fast Eddie B · 24th January 2020, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by Cabbage

I believe his actual quote was, "I wasn't wrong then but I'm more right now".

Better would have been, “It depends on what the definition of “wrong” is.”

Tero · 24th January 2020, 07:15 AM

The impeachment article in Wikipedia is slow to develop, but this one is nearly done
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%...kraine_scandal
On September 25, the administration released the White House's five-page, declassified memorandum of the July 25 phone call between Trump and Zelensky.[135][136][137][a] In the call, Trump pressed for an investigation into the Bidens and CrowdStrike, saying: "I would like to have the [U.S.] Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it."[136] Trump falsely told Zelensky "Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution" of his son, Hunter; Biden did not stop any prosecution, did not brag about doing so, and there is no evidence his son was ever under investigation.[138]

footnote 138 goes to
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/25/polit...est/index.html

The Shrike · 24th January 2020, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

...misdirection directed at the uninformed and lazy members of the electorate.

Spent a few days at home with my mom last week – in her 80s but sharp and spry and very opinionated. And she will vote.

She watches her local news every day. This provides her with a steady diet of crime reports and other mayhem in her own community. This reinforces her racism and general fear of crime destroying said community.

She refuses to watch any national news coverage. She despises partisan sniping. Anytime that the local news would cover the impeachment hearings her response was "Ugh, turn that off. I can't stand listening to it!"

It occurred to me that she is the quintessential low-information voter. She's not a Fox News deplorable. She's well-read and intelligent. But she quite on purpose has next to no knowledge of the current national/international issues that folks like us discuss here every day. Mueller Report? Detention centers on the border? Burisma? Soleimani? Ballooning deficit? Nada.

My great revelation about the impeachment hearings, then? It's not just people covering for the President versus sentient humans of integrity, the sentient folks with integrity must also battle what is probably a big group of people who know shockingly little about these proceedings, why they're happening, etc.

PS: She's a registered Democrat.

Tero · 24th January 2020, 08:18 AM

If you gave money to the Trump campaign, you got it paid back by (Russian? Republican? ) sources:

Parnas' company, which offered products and services to guard against investment fraud, had no sign of any customers at the time of the contributions. However, it later received a $1.5 million investment from Magnolia Ventures, a New York City-based venture capital fund.

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/4531125002

Meadmaker · 24th January 2020, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Did it just go over your head how corrupt Trump is?

If so, it went over the rest of the country's head as well.

Crazy Chainsaw · 24th January 2020, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

If so, it went over the rest of the country's head as well.

No there has been a coordinated campaign to Hide the Courption of the Alt Right and conservative media though Intimation and violence for years, look at the constant threats against Aborting providers or anyone that calls out the Racist Neo Nazis.
Especially when it involves Fox news and Conservative Celerity's like Sean Hannity.
They don't want their people to know the Truth and these prolifers would kill to prevent the Truth from being known.

Cabbage · 24th January 2020, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

If so, it went over the rest of the country's head as well.

No.

Going over someone's head =/= Falling on deaf ears/blind eyes

It can't go over someone's head when they never paid attention to begin with.

theprestige · 24th January 2020, 09:01 AM

I think a lot of the country assumes (rightly or wrongly) that most politicians are pretty corrupt.

I Am The Scum · 24th January 2020, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Cabbage

I believe his actual quote was, "I wasn't wrong then but I'm more right now".

"I was not wrong when I said the coin toss was heads. Now, I'm even more right when I say the coin toss was tails."

I Am The Scum · 24th January 2020, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

Why not? Why do people keep saying that?

Only a fool would believe there was some legitimate concern of criminal activity behind Trump's withholding of the aid.

I'll make this as simple as possible: What crime was Donald Trump interested in being investigated? Was Hunter Biden bribing lawmakers? Was Hunter Biden shaking down competitors with the assistance of the mob? Is Hunter Biden a serial killer? Tell me what crime is actually suspected to have happened. Be as specific as possible.

TragicMonkey · 24th January 2020, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I think a lot of the country assumes (rightly or wrongly) that most politicians are pretty corrupt.

Yeah, but there's a wide range between scratching a few backs and competing with N'Zoth.

JoeMorgue · 24th January 2020, 09:16 AM

1 in 3 Republicans think Trump did something illegal, but just 1 in 10 think he should be removed from office.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/polit...law/index.html

Belz... · 24th January 2020, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

1 in 3 Republicans think Trump did something illegal, but just 1 in 10 think he should be removed from office.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/polit...law/index.html

Evolution of the GOP position on impeachment:
"It doesn't take a crime."
"It doesn't take a technical crime."
"It requires a crime."
"It requires a crime-like behaviour."
"It doesn't really matter."

Meadmaker · 24th January 2020, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I wonder what it takes for someone to sell out like you do with this post.

People in government wield a great deal of power. But that power doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the American people.

If you were to go back and read my post, I think you would find that that is what I said.

Meadmaker · 24th January 2020, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by I Am The Scum

Only a fool would believe there was some legitimate concern of criminal activity behind Trump's withholding of the aid.

I'll make this as simple as possible: What crime was Donald Trump interested in being investigated? Was Hunter Biden bribing lawmakers? Was Hunter Biden shaking down competitors with the assistance of the mob? Is Hunter Biden a serial killer? Tell me what crime is actually suspected to have happened. Be as specific as possible.

Influence peddling and/or bribery.

I'm not saying he did those things, or even that there is any evidence of those things. I am saying that some people suspected him of those things.

Meadmaker · 24th January 2020, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

As a matter of your opinion, do you think it is impeachable?

Yes.

eeyore1954 · 24th January 2020, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Why not? Why do people keep saying that?

Do I think it is a quite awful thing to do? Yes. Do I think it's a crime? No.

Withholding the aid is pretty bad. Bad enough to throw an elected president out of office? Take a poll and find out.

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I wonder what it takes for someone to sell out like you do with this post.

Can't you fathom that an intelligent reasonably non partisan person (Meadmaker's posts usually appear non partisan to me) can arrive at that conclusion?
Why do you need to accuse Meadmaker of selling out?

23rd January 2020, 07:16 PM	#201
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Putin =/= Russia. At this point I'm not sure there's a distinction.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

23rd January 2020, 08:42 PM	#206
Cabbage Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,598	Originally Posted by I Am The Scum Of course, he refuses to acknowledge the contradiction. I believe his actual quote was, "I wasn't wrong then but I'm more right now".
Cabbage Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,598

23rd January 2020, 08:51 PM	#207
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,193	Originally Posted by I Am The Scum Dershowitz is even disagreeing with himself from the Clinton impeachment. Back then, he said a crime wasn't required to move forward, now he's saying it is. Of course, he refuses to acknowledge the contradiction. He isn't adding anything to the conversation except his dubious reputation and desire to see himself on TV. The whole "it has to be a crime to be an impeachable offense" Is deserving of detision. Never mind the fact there wasn't a Federal criminal code in 1789. Never mind the comments of Madison and Hamilton who explicitly said that impeachment articles needn't be a criminal offense. Never mind that there were very few crimes in any the articles of impeachment levied against the14 other government officials previously impeached. Anyone prsenting the argument should be embarrassed. But my guess is that most of those presenting the argument know that it's absurd. This is all misdirection directed at the uninformed and lazy members of the electorate.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . Last edited by acbytesla; 23rd January 2020 at 09:04 PM.

23rd January 2020, 08:58 PM	#209
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,205	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger He doesn't get it you can't ask foreign governments to investigate your political opponents. Why not? Why do people keep saying that? Do I think it is a quite awful thing to do? Yes. Do I think it's a crime? No. Withholding the aid is pretty bad. Bad enough to throw an elected president out of office? Take a poll and find out. ETA: Let me elaborate slightly, although it's really just repeating what has already been said. I think it makes the President look bad. Petty. Childish. About half sane. Everything we know about Trump. Politically, it could be a winner. But impeachable? That's really a matter of opinion, and the opinions aren't there to throw him out. The only question is whether this campaign commercial will play out well for the Democrats or for the Republicans. To me, it seems like the Republicans are going to get the upper hand, but I would gladly be proven wrong.
	Last edited by Meadmaker; 23rd January 2020 at 09:01 PM.

23rd January 2020, 09:03 PM	#210
Tero Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North American prairie Posts: 2,200	Another lame column by Ted Cruz backer https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/opini...art/index.html
	__________________ I've deleted the one blog link. You can find the humor blog by searching "the kari report blogspot." Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/

23rd January 2020, 07:32 PM	#203
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,833	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Many Constitutional scholars disagree with Dershowitz...including Turley, the GOP's witness during the hearings. Never mind, I misread that.

23rd January 2020, 08:12 PM	#205
I Am The Scum Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 4,569	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Many Constitutional scholars disagree with Dershowitz...including Turley, the GOP's witness during the hearings. Dershowitz is even disagreeing with himself from the Clinton impeachment. Back then, he said a crime wasn't required to move forward, now he's saying it is. Of course, he refuses to acknowledge the contradiction. He isn't adding anything to the conversation except his dubious reputation and desire to see himself on TV.

23rd January 2020, 08:53 PM	#208
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,833	Originally Posted by I Am The Scum Dershowitz is even disagreeing with himself from the Clinton impeachment. Back then, he said a crime wasn't required to move forward, now he's saying it is. Of course, he refuses to acknowledge the contradiction. He isn't adding anything to the conversation except his dubious reputation and desire to see himself on TV. He wrote that off with the lie he knows more now.

23rd January 2020, 09:04 PM	#211
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,833	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Why not? Why do people keep saying that? Do I think it is a quite awful thing to do? Yes. Do I think it's a crime? No. Withholding the aid is pretty bad. Bad enough to throw an elected president out of office? Take a poll and find out. ETA: Let me elaborate slightly, although it's really just repeating what has already been said. I think it makes the President look bad. Petty. Childish. About half sane. Everything we know about Trump. Politically, it could be a winner. But impeachable? That's really a matter of opinion, and the opinions aren't there to throw him out. The only question is whether this campaign commercial will play out well for the Democrats or for the Republicans. To me, it seems like the Republicans are going to get the upper hand, but I would gladly be proven wrong. Did it just go over your head how corrupt Trump is?

23rd January 2020, 09:34 PM	#212
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,745	Originally Posted by Belz... At this point I'm not sure there's a distinction [that Putin =/= Russia]. Fair point. Mind you, Trump wants the same thing: "Trump=USA".
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

23rd January 2020, 09:35 PM	#213
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,193	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Why not? Why do people keep saying that? Do I think it is a quite awful thing to do? Yes. Do I think it's a crime? No. Withholding the aid is pretty bad. Bad enough to throw an elected president out of office? Take a poll and find out. ETA: Let me elaborate slightly, although it's really just repeating what has already been said. I think it makes the President look bad. Petty. Childish. About half sane. Everything we know about Trump. Politically, it could be a winner. But impeachable? That's really a matter of opinion, and the opinions aren't there to throw him out. The only question is whether this campaign commercial will play out well for the Democrats or for the Republicans. To me, it seems like the Republicans are going to get the upper hand, but I would gladly be proven wrong. I wonder what it takes for someone to sell out like you do with this post. People in government wield a great deal of power. But that power doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the American people. Not to the government officials themselves. They are working on our behalf, not their own. But obviously you and Trump don't care given that he violated the Emoluments clause of the Constitution even before he became President and continues to violate it to this day. By asking a foreign power to do this, Trump is stealing what doesn't belong to him. It's no different than a hired clerk tapping the till. In this case it is more than 400 million dollars. It constitutes defrauding the American people and elections. I know you care about the integity of our elections. It is also bribery and extortion.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. . Last edited by acbytesla; 23rd January 2020 at 09:50 PM.

23rd January 2020, 09:43 PM	#214
Norman Alexander Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 8,745	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger He doesn't get it you can't ask foreign governments to investigate your political opponents. Why not? Why do people keep saying that? This is why, apparently. Quote: 52 U.S. Code § 30121. Contributions and donations by foreign nationals (a) Prohibition It shall be unlawful for— (1) a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make— (A) a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election; (B) a contribution or donation to a committee of a political party; or (C) an expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement for an electioneering communication (within the meaning of section 30104(f)(3) of this title); or (2) a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/30121
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

23rd January 2020, 10:12 PM	#215
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,615	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Why not? Why do people keep saying that? Do I think it is a quite awful thing to do? Yes. Do I think it's a crime? No. ..... You're not a lawyer, are you? Bribery, extortion and soliciting foreign assistance in political campaigns are crimes. Quote: Former CIA and DOD Chief Of Staff Jeremy Bash outlined three felony crimes that Trump committed when he tried to pressure Ukraine to investigate Biden. Bash said on MSNBC’s Deadline: White House, “Assuming the reports are true, I see three crimes here. One is extortion by the president, using a threat of withholding aid to obtain something of value. The second crime is conspiracy to engage in extortion between the president and Rudy Giuliani. And third crime is conspiracy to violate election law, given there may be three underlying crimes, I think we’re beyond the issue of the whistleblower. https://www.politicususa.com/2019/09...s-ukraine.html Quote: Judge Andrew Napolitano told Fox News host Shepard Smith on Tuesday that the president effectively confessed to a crime when he admitted he asked Ukraine to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden and his son, Hunter. Napolitano, a Fox News senior judicial analyst, had framed President Trump's earlier statement as an admission that he tried to "solicit aid for his campaign from a foreign government." “So that to which the president has admitted is in and of itself a crime,” Smith followed. Napolitano responded, "yes," and claimed it was the same crime former Special Counsel Robert Mueller investigated as part of the long-running Russia investigation. https://www.foxnews.com/media/judge-...admitted-crime

23rd January 2020, 10:43 PM	#216
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,221	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Why not? Why do people keep saying that? Do I think it is a quite awful thing to do? Yes. Do I think it's a crime? No. Withholding the aid is pretty bad. Bad enough to throw an elected president out of office? Take a poll and find out. ETA: Let me elaborate slightly, although it's really just repeating what has already been said. I think it makes the President look bad. Petty. Childish. About half sane. Everything we know about Trump. Politically, it could be a winner. But impeachable? That's really a matter of opinion, and the opinions aren't there to throw him out. The only question is whether this campaign commercial will play out well for the Democrats or for the Republicans. To me, it seems like the Republicans are going to get the upper hand, but I would gladly be proven wrong. As a matter of your opinion, do you think it is impeachable?

24th January 2020, 02:06 AM	#217
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 16,761	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Why not? Why do people keep saying that? Do I think it is a quite awful thing to do? Yes. Do I think it's a crime? No. Withholding the aid is pretty bad. Bad enough to throw an elected president out of office? Take a poll and find out. ETA: Let me elaborate slightly, although it's really just repeating what has already been said. I think it makes the President look bad. Petty. Childish. About half sane. Everything we know about Trump. Politically, it could be a winner. But impeachable? That's really a matter of opinion, and the opinions aren't there to throw him out. The only question is whether this campaign commercial will play out well for the Democrats or for the Republicans. To me, it seems like the Republicans are going to get the upper hand, but I would gladly be proven wrong. He used the Office of the President of the United States to involve the leader of an allied foreign government in a scheme to smear the reputation of a political opponent... that is using the Office for personal gain... and you don't think that is an impeachable offence? Furthermore, the methodology he used in an attempt to get a foreign leader to announce bogus investigations of that political opponent, was to withhold financial aid to that allied foreign government which had been duly authorised by Congress. This in itself was an illegal act, a violation of 2 USC§681-8 (the Impoundment Control act), a piece of legislation that was passed specifically to prevent a POTUS doing what Trump did. That's not to mention that doing so was an act of extortion or bribery, both criminal acts. I guess you think its OK for POTUS to outright, deliberately break the Law and commit criminal acts. I promise you, if any other western leader or politician had done what Trump had done, he/she would resign or be thrown out by their own party.
	__________________ I want to thank the 126 Republican Congress members for providing a convenient and well organized list for the mid-terms. - Fred Wellman (Senior VA Advisor to The Lincoln Project) If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !

24th January 2020, 03:22 AM	#218
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by I Am The Scum Dershowitz is even disagreeing with himself from the Clinton impeachment. Back then, he said a crime wasn't required to move forward, now he's saying it is. Actually, he tried to correct himself by saying the same thing again, that it doesn't require a 'technical crime' but that it requires a crime-like thing. It must really suck to have to be so partisan all the time.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

24th January 2020, 03:24 AM	#219
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Fair point. Mind you, Trump wants the same thing: "Trump=USA". Well, he says it often enough.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

24th January 2020, 03:29 AM	#220
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,239	Originally Posted by Stacyhs At this point, Trump could tweet a confession admitting he did exactly what the Dems have shown he did and the GOP would claim he was just kidding or the media is misrepresenting what the confession said. He bragged, on camera, about obstructing justice just the other day. It really doesn't matter.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

24th January 2020, 06:03 AM	#221
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,239	Fox News' legal analyst explains why Trump should be removed from office
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

24th January 2020, 06:04 AM	#222
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,239	https://twitter.com/mattmfm/status/1...916677120?s=20 Quote: CBS News reports that GOP Senators have been warned by Trump team: "Vote against the president, and your head will be on a pike." How is this acceptable?
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

24th January 2020, 06:08 AM	#223
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim https://twitter.com/mattmfm/status/1...916677120?s=20
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

24th January 2020, 06:48 AM	#224
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 6,732	Originally Posted by Cabbage I believe his actual quote was, "I wasn't wrong then but I'm more right now". Better would have been, “It depends on what the definition of “wrong” is.”

24th January 2020, 07:15 AM	#225
Tero Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North American prairie Posts: 2,200	The impeachment article in Wikipedia is slow to develop, but this one is nearly done https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%...kraine_scandal On September 25, the administration released the White House's five-page, declassified memorandum of the July 25 phone call between Trump and Zelensky.[135][136][137][a] In the call, Trump pressed for an investigation into the Bidens and CrowdStrike, saying: "I would like to have the [U.S.] Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it."[136] Trump falsely told Zelensky "Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution" of his son, Hunter; Biden did not stop any prosecution, did not brag about doing so, and there is no evidence his son was ever under investigation.[138] footnote 138 goes to https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/25/polit...est/index.html
	__________________ I've deleted the one blog link. You can find the humor blog by searching "the kari report blogspot." Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/ Last edited by Tero; 24th January 2020 at 07:40 AM.

24th January 2020, 07:37 AM	#226
The Shrike Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Oklahoma, USA Posts: 5,147	Originally Posted by acbytesla ...misdirection directed at the uninformed and lazy members of the electorate. Spent a few days at home with my mom last week – in her 80s but sharp and spry and very opinionated. And she will vote. She watches her local news every day. This provides her with a steady diet of crime reports and other mayhem in her own community. This reinforces her racism and general fear of crime destroying said community. She refuses to watch any national news coverage. She despises partisan sniping. Anytime that the local news would cover the impeachment hearings her response was "Ugh, turn that off. I can't stand listening to it!" It occurred to me that she is the quintessential low-information voter. She's not a Fox News deplorable. She's well-read and intelligent. But she quite on purpose has next to no knowledge of the current national/international issues that folks like us discuss here every day. Mueller Report? Detention centers on the border? Burisma? Soleimani? Ballooning deficit? Nada. My great revelation about the impeachment hearings, then? It's not just people covering for the President versus sentient humans of integrity, the sentient folks with integrity must also battle what is probably a big group of people who know shockingly little about these proceedings, why they're happening, etc. PS: She's a registered Democrat.

24th January 2020, 08:18 AM	#227
Tero Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North American prairie Posts: 2,200	If you gave money to the Trump campaign, you got it paid back by (Russian? Republican? ) sources: Parnas' company, which offered products and services to guard against investment fraud, had no sign of any customers at the time of the contributions. However, it later received a $1.5 million investment from Magnolia Ventures, a New York City-based venture capital fund. https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/4531125002
	__________________ I've deleted the one blog link. You can find the humor blog by searching "the kari report blogspot." Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/

24th January 2020, 08:34 AM	#228
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,205	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Did it just go over your head how corrupt Trump is? If so, it went over the rest of the country's head as well.

24th January 2020, 08:44 AM	#229
Crazy Chainsaw Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5,465	Originally Posted by Meadmaker If so, it went over the rest of the country's head as well. No there has been a coordinated campaign to Hide the Courption of the Alt Right and conservative media though Intimation and violence for years, look at the constant threats against Aborting providers or anyone that calls out the Racist Neo Nazis. Especially when it involves Fox news and Conservative Celerity's like Sean Hannity. They don't want their people to know the Truth and these prolifers would kill to prevent the Truth from being known.

24th January 2020, 08:46 AM	#230
Cabbage Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,598	Originally Posted by Meadmaker If so, it went over the rest of the country's head as well. No. Going over someone's head =/= Falling on deaf ears/blind eyes It can't go over someone's head when they never paid attention to begin with.
Cabbage Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,598

24th January 2020, 09:01 AM	#231
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,532	I think a lot of the country assumes (rightly or wrongly) that most politicians are pretty corrupt.

24th January 2020, 09:07 AM	#232
I Am The Scum Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 4,569	Originally Posted by Cabbage I believe his actual quote was, "I wasn't wrong then but I'm more right now". "I was not wrong when I said the coin toss was heads. Now, I'm even more right when I say the coin toss was tails."

24th January 2020, 09:10 AM	#233
I Am The Scum Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 4,569	Originally Posted by Meadmaker Why not? Why do people keep saying that? Only a fool would believe there was some legitimate concern of criminal activity behind Trump's withholding of the aid. I'll make this as simple as possible: What crime was Donald Trump interested in being investigated? Was Hunter Biden bribing lawmakers? Was Hunter Biden shaking down competitors with the assistance of the mob? Is Hunter Biden a serial killer? Tell me what crime is actually suspected to have happened. Be as specific as possible.

24th January 2020, 09:14 AM	#234
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,443	Originally Posted by theprestige I think a lot of the country assumes (rightly or wrongly) that most politicians are pretty corrupt. Yeah, but there's a wide range between scratching a few backs and competing with N'Zoth.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

24th January 2020, 09:16 AM	#235
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,605	1 in 3 Republicans think Trump did something illegal, but just 1 in 10 think he should be removed from office. https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/polit...law/index.html
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

24th January 2020, 09:18 AM	#236
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,292	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue 1 in 3 Republicans think Trump did something illegal, but just 1 in 10 think he should be removed from office. https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/23/polit...law/index.html Evolution of the GOP position on impeachment: "It doesn't take a crime." "It doesn't take a technical crime." "It requires a crime." "It requires a crime-like behaviour." "It doesn't really matter."
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

24th January 2020, 09:33 AM	#237
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,205	Originally Posted by acbytesla I wonder what it takes for someone to sell out like you do with this post. People in government wield a great deal of power. But that power doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the American people. If you were to go back and read my post, I think you would find that that is what I said.